Jesus, the Zen Master?

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posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 06:02 PM
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Here I was a full blown Christian many years back. My mind racing with questions about the size of the Universe, the presence of God, how other religions fit into the picture, and many others My thirst for knowledge could not be quenched back then.

I took on my own personal World Religions studies just to see what everyone else was saying and how it compared to my precious Christianity. So here I was, sitting on a couch in my living room, having recently purchased my first ever Zen book to see what it's all about. I did not know it was a Zen book at the time.

It started off discussing how all views are relative. How a child simply is aware and does not know. That child learns and everything it is taught is a program that rests on top of that original child-like awareness.

Eventually I came across this sentence:

"Just like the thought of a rock, is not an actual rock; So who you think you are, is not who you actually are."

I froze at this expression and began to dismantle it. First I found that it was true, that a rock is its own thing (completely naked without any labels), and whatever I think of it, is merely an imagined illusion based representation of the actual rock. Instantly I saw how the mind superimposes representations over all of reality.

This statement was thus far true. Better yet, it was logical and rational and was devoid of any religious labels. This statement did not belong to Zen, or Satan, or God, or anyone. It was merely fact.

So I continued. Seeing that all mental images/thoughts are not real, but illusions using mental representations superimposed over reality, I then tried to find out who I am, .....that is not a thought.

Any answer that the Mind came up with was a thought, therefore was not I. So I wrestled with this for the next 15 minutes, like a puzzle. Who am I, that is not a thought?..... all the answers were thoughts.

Then it happened. In an instant, I shifted into a third person perspective. I was now viewing the mind. The thinker of thoughts was being seen from a third person perspective. I saw that this thinker of thoughts is not I. The ego was seen for what it is .... a bunch of illusion imaginations.

This was AWESOME!!!!! Filled with Joy and Laughter and Peace and Awe. I hated myself basically all my life and was now free from myself. I was again like a child, seeing everything anew. So after a 2 hour walk in this new child like state where everything was in Awe, I came back home sat on the couch, took a deep sigh of relief from being freed from myself, and then then next shift happened......

This childlike state seemed to drop instantly into an Ocean of Oneness. There was no longer any me. There was only what was, and what was, was an Infinite Beingness, and Absolute state. Nothing could ever trump this, for this was the foundation of all of reality, beyond words, beyond thought. This was the final exclamation point !

In the excitement of this experience, the original mind came back into the scene to try and figure this all out, which pulled me out of all the states and back into the Ego/Mind/I complex.

This was It !!!!!! When Jesus said, "I and the Father are One," it was him being permanently in this state. I too, for a few seconds, had been one with the Father.

Amazing!!!! All that happened from a logical/rational sentence(not belonging to any religion nor a weapon of Satan) that I mulled over for 20 minutes.

Coming back to reality, I saw the difficulty in explaining this, for all understanding would be limited to language and thought, all of which is illusion based and could never represent nor even touch the Absolute state of Being which not only transcends all thought, but is also prior to it.

So then I saw that Jesus had been a Zen master. Surrounded by a bunch of Jews who are busy killing innocent animals as sacrifices to a blood thirsty God to cover their sins, and anyone who speaks against their way of life ought to be stoned ...... Jesus had to be slicker than greased lightning and even then, he had to dumb this down to everyone, considering the IQ level of the simpleton folks back then.

Since then I embrace Zen, as a Christian. I think they are interchangeable and highly compatible. I find that Zen is not some religion or a thing that satan created to deceive ....... but an actual Science that uses logic and reason to break down reality to the very Absolute Truth of it all.




posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 06:17 PM
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Sounds like a transformative epiphany of realization there, and yea I can see that angle. We are what we are and our mind is who we are, and the only way to experience the pure what we are can be related to an empty zen expression, unfettered and well, as above so below maybe.
My impression is Jesus is more zen like than the bible like because his love is unconditional, tolerant and compassionate, without rules other than accepting him in one's heart.

I studied world religions too some time ago and I thought there was speculation of Jesus traveling to the East.
Did Jesus spend some time in India during the 'lost' years, and is there any evidence to support this?

The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians

reluctant-messenger.com...



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 06:44 PM
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Religion is man made. JESUS IS REALITY!

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Perfect Numeric Structure Found...Original Hebrew - www.fivedoves.com...



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 06:48 PM
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Jesus never went to India. People who say that never bothered to read:

Matthew 15:21-24

21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

23 But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

There were no "lost years" where he was seeking some grand knowledge in India, he had everything he needed. He was teaching pharisees Torah at the age of 12 when he had never read it, he was still 1 year away from his bar'Mitzva. The son of a carpenter would have been learning his father's trade to take over the family business when the father died, unless he was 30 years old in which he could then begin his ministry as rabbi.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by dominicus
 

I also think the two are interchangable, with one slight exception whereby Jesus said "what does it profit a man to gain the WHOLE world, but lose his own soul?!" (in isolate consciousness ie one with everything) meaning that there is a nihilistic aspect of Zen Buddhism, when taken to its extreme (whcih I've seen in some adherents, an inner deadness), whereby the essential personhood, the passion and the desire to realize the best possible outcome for one and all can be lost, as "the one" just sits, with all desire draining away in "Nirvana" or absolute nothingness aka the radiant void. In this way, Christianity is like a captstone of Buddhist thought, completing it, and retaining it's wholeness and integrity, within the context of the relativity of human being or the brotherhood of man. imho.

edit on 11-8-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Jesus never went to India. People who say that never bothered to read:

You mean read the bible or additional sources for a more informed perspective? If you are arguing the bible as exclusive fact, well okay, but surely you can see where others may not agree with the leap of faith as absolute.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Jesus never went to India. People who say that never bothered to read:

You mean read the bible or additional sources for a more informed perspective? If you are arguing the bible as exclusive fact, well okay, but surely you can see where others may not agree with the leap of faith as absolute.


Jesus said most won't.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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Regardless of his travels and lost years, would he not be aware of such practices and experiences?? All the manifestations/expressions of GOD. This feeling of oneness is the fuel to the spiritual fire...it drives one to see what is similar and tolerable in everyone and everything...even the tiger taking down a gazelle...is it all not part of GOD's divine pattern?

If your beliefs bring you to tolerance and love for your fellow man then it is your path to follow...if your beliefs raise internal barriers against your fellow man then you are to fault...you are to be the gazelle!

***It would be naive to suggest the lord did not or does not value and cherish such experiences...its a blessing and a gift to reach that point of clarity. Most will never earn this clarity...for they are too busy building walls to protect their ego...consider yourself blessed OP, but you already know that



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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I think that if you dropped the last 5 paragraphs , you would have had a more genuine op . You also have a good excuse for the last 5 paragraphs being there , exactly where you would have left off .
I enjoyed reading this op , thanks for sharing it .

And I agree with you , the 'who we are' , is important , and its a matter of owning who we are . We are the owners of the truth within and the world without , and that purest of knowledege will transform existence in the future . Is is who we are .
edit on 11-8-2012 by ZIPMATT because: re-read op



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Get yourself a red letter bible and then argue what he did and did not say...if you have time take note the 99% black writing in the bible


Start by tossing anything by Paul or dictated by Paul(Hebrews btw) to the trash...then MAYBE we can talk



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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Soo basically Jesus is nothing more than a first century Phil Jackson??



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
.... Jesus had to be slicker than greased lightning and even then, he had to dumb this down to everyone, considering the IQ level of the simpleton folks back then.

I don't really have a comment on your assertion about Zen. Folks of all philosophical bents are capable of finding common spiritual truths.

But I do believe your comment about those "simpleton Folks" and I.Q. shows a lack of understanding of both them and the concept of I.Q.

They could do things, reason, and take care of themselves in ways that would make many of us look like simpletons. Don't fool yourself, some of the greatest philosophical and spiritual thoughts were introduced into the world by folk of that era.

You contemplated a rock after reading a quote and extrapolated "oneness." Wowzer.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Phil Jackson aspires to be accepting like a Christ...but that would be a bit disappointing, he has not taught people much has he....well aside from the triangle offense...lol...Oh oh that's a trinity...

edit on 8/11/2012 by Drala because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Get yourself a red letter bible and then argue what he did and did not say...if you have time take note the 99% black writing in the bible


Start by tossing anything by Paul or dictated by Paul(Hebrews btw) to the trash...then MAYBE we can talk



Slow down.. I have a red letter Bible. Secondly, without Paul there isn't much ecclesiocentric new covenant books or doctrines to understand for the Gentile Christian. Third, you'd have to throw out Peter also who affirms Paul, (2 Peter 3:15-16). Don't forget the gospel of Mark which is Peter's gospel.

And make sure you have a comprehension of Greek and Hebrew. Still want to "talk"?



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Phil Jackson aspires to be accepting like a Christ...but that would be a bit disappointing, he has not taught people much has he....well aside from the triangle offense...lol...Oh oh that's a trinity...



In one corner, God manifested in the flesh, in the other a crappy NBA player who got lucky enough to land a coaching gig with Michael Jordan/ Scottie Pippen then another cush job with a young Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal in the prime of his life.

Totally similar situations.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Jesus said most won't.

You mean the bible says Jesus says... See I am one that thinks Jesus and the bible co-exist, but are not exclusive to one another, as in Jesus is more than fallible man's interpretation of his words and actions, but that is a whole nuther subject I suppose and there is no sense arguing it because you know how that goes. I respect your faith, but when it comes to Jesus traveling to India or adopting some Eastern flavor to his philosophy, I have to seek beyond the bible and consider historical testimony, which is strange because that is where much of the historical Jesus evidence come from, testimonies. Not trying to pick a fight, just expressing my perspective....nothing but love.
edit on 11-8-2012 by speculativeoptimist because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Get yourself a red letter bible and then argue what he did and did not say...if you have time take note the 99% black writing in the bible


Start by tossing anything by Paul or dictated by Paul(Hebrews btw) to the trash...then MAYBE we can talk



Slow down.. I have a red letter Bible. Secondly, without Paul there isn't much ecclesiocentric new covenant books or doctrines to understand for the Gentile Christian. Third, you'd have to throw out Peter also who affirms Paul, (2 Peter 3:15-16). Don't forget the gospel of Mark which is Peter's gospel.

And make sure you have a comprehension of Greek and Hebrew. Still want to "talk"?


Benjamite Wolf prophecy...there is only one self appointed Apostle...and only one began his assent to fame buy killing thousands of Christian's...

Your lord warned you of Paul...not Peter.

The new testament was written for Christianity, have you ever considered the Christian Religion was started after your lords death...THUS Jeshua was not Christian?

Careful also...Paul tells you the old ways of the Torah died on the Cross with Christ...You really think Christ died to have Paul teach contrary?

There is a test at hand...and love and tolerance was its answer according to your lord...Paul served his purpose well...leading many to the slaughter...

Teachings that contradict what Christ died for is a Sin...The Harlot that Rides upon the Beasts back is the Catholic Whore...challenge that if you want..but I think you will see truth if you can take the advice of a stranger on ATS...

...but this is just my opinion...who am i to listen to
...



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Phil Jackson aspires to be accepting like a Christ...but that would be a bit disappointing, he has not taught people much has he....well aside from the triangle offense...lol...Oh oh that's a trinity...



In one corner, God manifested in the flesh, in the other a crappy NBA player who got lucky enough to land a coaching gig with Michael Jordan/ Scottie Pippen then another cush job with a young Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal in the prime of his life.

Totally similar situations.


Easy on Phil, whats your beef? He meditates and is more tolerant than many people I know...how he got there is his decision not yours lol..



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Get yourself a red letter bible and then argue what he did and did not say...if you have time take note the 99% black writing in the bible


Start by tossing anything by Paul or dictated by Paul(Hebrews btw) to the trash...then MAYBE we can talk



Slow down.. I have a red letter Bible. Secondly, without Paul there isn't much ecclesiocentric new covenant books or doctrines to understand for the Gentile Christian. Third, you'd have to throw out Peter also who affirms Paul, (2 Peter 3:15-16). Don't forget the gospel of Mark which is Peter's gospel.

And make sure you have a comprehension of Greek and Hebrew. Still want to "talk"?


Oh and the Greek and Hebrew challenge...I would oblige, but if that is all I need to sit down at the table with you, I think I will move on to a higher stakes table


Just research what I wrote and stop arguing
...I am not here to provoke you, but I will challenge you for eternity...



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Jesus never went to India. People who say that never bothered to read:

You mean read the bible or additional sources for a more informed perspective? If you are arguing the bible as exclusive fact, well okay, but surely you can see where others may not agree with the leap of faith as absolute.


It is fact he never went to anyone other than Israel. Israel was forbidden to mix with the gentile nations for a reason, because God was making a holy nation, ofcourse they didn't heed Him when he said to do something and it caused their downfall. Ofcourse some of Ephraim might have made it down to india, they were spread all over the world, but Jesus didn't begin his ministry until he was 30 because the age of 30 was the minimum age when a man could begin rabbiship and part of the reason he told the Apostles to "Inquire of those whom are worthy" which are the lost sheep of Israel, he gave that task to future disciples and apostles to spread the Word to them. He didn't go to India, he didn't go to China or any other place unless it was one of us carrying him with us, whom are the body of Christ. The only way he would have gone to India or anywhere else is if we were carrying him there.

Now you can choose to believe whatever fantasy your mind can concoct about him, but that doesn't make it true and in the end you only decieve yourself. Furthermore, no Old Testament scripture mentions anything about him going anywhere than the place of his inheritance, and the mountain of his inheritance which is Israel. His concern while he was here was fulfilling the prohecies that were required to establish him as Messiah the Savior, and those did not include vacation time in India.
edit on 11-8-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



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