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I'm an atheist, and lover of science.. but I had to wonder, what if there is something beyond our p
page: 3share:
Originally posted by miniatus
What cannot be proved or disproved is never obvious or evident.. to be evident requires evidence.. and there simply isn't any =)
You could do a million tests to find a soul and come up empty handed every single time. Bodies have been cut in half and no beings of light have come out. People die and nothing has appeared out of the corpse. No soul has ever been observed, photographed or manifested in all of human history. If that is not enough evidence, the scientific method should be worthless to you.
Originally posted by miniatus
That is affecting the feedback.. Just with any interface you provide input and you get output.. if football was once pleasurable then the feedback would be pleasurable.. if the software malfunctions and suddenly football does not provide a pleasurable feedback, then the controller wouldn't like it either..
I see, kinda. This is more akin to two way communication between brain and soul, then. What happens when you take away the brain, does Dave like football or not, now, or is it that he is no longer bothered by such mundane questions pertaining to this world?
From another programmer's perspective, I try to equate the brain to computer hardware/software but it can be difficult. I find it is more like a
combination of the two. Although your neurons are physical (implying hardware) the structure of the neural pathways are always changing based on input
(your 5 senses) sort of like software re-writing itself. Sometimes that rewiring is beneficial (like a light bulb going off when a concept finally
makes sense) and sometimes it goes bad (like post traumatic stress).
Changing your thought process can actually trigger physical changes in your brain. At this point I do find it hard to imagine your 'energy' being able to produce thought without the physical brain structure as the two seem inter dependent. But that doesn't mean it can't happen. Energy can travel through many mediums, if our energy 'blueprint' could somehow transfer to another medium (maybe not even a physical one) then maybe we can persist past our physical death.
Changing your thought process can actually trigger physical changes in your brain. At this point I do find it hard to imagine your 'energy' being able to produce thought without the physical brain structure as the two seem inter dependent. But that doesn't mean it can't happen. Energy can travel through many mediums, if our energy 'blueprint' could somehow transfer to another medium (maybe not even a physical one) then maybe we can persist past our physical death.
[COLOR=CYAN] The brain HARDWARE is not present in this time when the "rich" man still has conscious/SOFTWARE CONNECTIONS but is in HADES not EA*RTH?
[/COLOR]
Luke 16:19-31
New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[color=cyan] 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ notice the rich man has senses/software? yet no brain of this worlds flesh?
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
[COLOR=CYAN] MORE PROOF OF BRAIN HARDWARE NOT IN THIS PLAIN WHERE THEY SPEAK TO THE LORD BUT A SOFTWARE CONSCIOUS IS IF NOT THE ACTUAL PROGRAMMERS?[/COLOR]
Revelation 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.
Luke 16:19-31
New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[color=cyan] 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ notice the rich man has senses/software? yet no brain of this worlds flesh?
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
[COLOR=CYAN] MORE PROOF OF BRAIN HARDWARE NOT IN THIS PLAIN WHERE THEY SPEAK TO THE LORD BUT A SOFTWARE CONSCIOUS IS IF NOT THE ACTUAL PROGRAMMERS?[/COLOR]
Revelation 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.
edit on 8/10/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
You could do a million tests to find a soul and come up empty handed every single time. Bodies have been cut in half and no beings of light have come out. People die and nothing has appeared out of the corpse. No soul has ever been observed, photographed or manifested in all of human history. If that is not enough evidence, the scientific method should be worthless to you.
You could do a million tests to find dreams and come up empty handed every single time. Bodies have been cut in half and no dreams have come out. People die and nothing has appeared out of the corpse. No dreams have ever been observed, photographed or manifested in all of human history. If that is not enough evidence, the scientific method should be worthless to you.
Yet we dream, do we not? Dreams may not be real in the sense that a cup is real, but they are certainly real in the sense that we clearly experience them, we "do" dream - that gives dreams more of a reality than nothingness.
Dreams are not a material "thing", so we cannot see them using the scientific method, we can only see the effects of dreams, like reactions in the brain, or flickering eye movements. To a person who does not dream, there is no evidence that dreams exist besides testimony of others. The soul, to believers, is like this, so one would not expect to see evidence of their existence as one would a material thing, so science cannot say anything on the subject except "we cannot see any evidence such a thing is real, and we wouldn't expect to".
EDIT: Oops, I meant to add this to my previous post but I overwrote it instead, so my initial reply is lost.
edit on 10-8-2012 by humphreysjim
because: (no reason given)
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
Actually science hasn't entirely excluded it given the steps being made with Quantum physics. I think even Einstein and, I think Bergmann, were working on a theory for what they called the '5th' dimension which they did scrap even though they were making advances with it.
What if the 'soul' cannot be observed here? What if the light is out of the visible spectrum that we can observe?
Still so little we know. It is limiting potential to rule it out now.
Actually science hasn't entirely excluded it given the steps being made with Quantum physics. I think even Einstein and, I think Bergmann, were working on a theory for what they called the '5th' dimension which they did scrap even though they were making advances with it.
What if the 'soul' cannot be observed here? What if the light is out of the visible spectrum that we can observe?
Still so little we know. It is limiting potential to rule it out now.
edit on 10-8-2012 by LightAssassin because: Note to self: Stop ATS'ing
while semi-pissed
What does believing in energy, "souls", Chakra, meditation, perception have to do with being an Atheist?
These are there, we just can't comprehend them yet. Them existing does not have to do with a god.
These are there, we just can't comprehend them yet. Them existing does not have to do with a god.
Originally posted by humphreysjim
I guess my point is nothing you said is evidence against the reality of the soul, because it is not generally accepted as being something you can see, touch, or feel in the material world.
Yeah? Then what is it?
Observable gravity: Cavendish Experiment
edit on 10-8-2012 by
LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)
Everyone is aware that Christianity supports the idea of a soul, the entire religion is based on it pretty much. No need to post scripture.
Not only Christianity Enlilites and Enkites BOTH study the OTHER realms and the connections from this side to there.
Originally posted by LightAssassin
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
Maybe try my metaphorical attempt to explain it, while semi-pissed?
I would, but it's 7am here. Although, that hasn't stopped me before.
Originally posted by humphreysjim
Originally posted by miniatus
That is affecting the feedback.. Just with any interface you provide input and you get output.. if football was once pleasurable then the feedback would be pleasurable.. if the software malfunctions and suddenly football does not provide a pleasurable feedback, then the controller wouldn't like it either..
I see, kinda. This is more akin to two way communication between brain and soul, then. What happens when you take away the brain, does Dave like football or not, now, or is it that he is no longer bothered by such mundane questions pertaining to this world?
Well Dave no longer would be getting any pleasurable feedback and probably wouldn't care about football ... I liken this to sense of smell .. people who've lost their sense of smell due to say.. zinc overdose.. suddenly are disinterested in all sorts of foods.. sense of smell is linked to taste..
Duty calls.. I appreciate everyone's replies! it was as interesting as I hoped it would be.. I'm not bowing out just have a conference call to
attend..
Back shortly.
Back shortly.
Originally posted by humphreysjim
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
You could do a million tests to find a soul and come up empty handed every single time. Bodies have been cut in half and no beings of light have come out. People die and nothing has appeared out of the corpse. No soul has ever been observed, photographed or manifested in all of human history. If that is not enough evidence, the scientific method should be worthless to you.
You could do a million tests to find dreams and come up empty handed every single time. Bodies have been cut in half and no dreams have come out. People die and nothing has appeared out of the corpse. No dreams have ever been observed, photographed or manifested in all of human history. If that is not enough evidence, the scientific method should be worthless to you.
Yet we dream, do we not? Dreams may not be real in the sense that a cup is real, but they are certainly real in the sense that we clearly experience them, we "do" dream - that gives dreams more of a reality than nothingness.
Dreams are not a material "thing", so we cannot see them using the scientific method, we can only see the effects of dreams, like reactions in the brain, or flickering eye movements. To a person who does not dream, there is no evidence that dreams exist besides testimony of others. The soul, to believers, is like this, so one would not expect to see evidence of their existence as one would a material thing, so science cannot say anything on the subject except "we cannot see any evidence such a thing is real, and we wouldn't expect to".
EDIT: Oops, I meant to add this to my previous post but I overwrote it instead, so my initial reply is lost.edit on 10-8-2012 by humphreysjim because: (no reason given)
Wait, you've changed your post a few times. Do you dream? I do. I have experienced dreams. Have you experienced a soul? Not me. I have never experienced a soul. Have you?
Dreams are an event, not a thing or substance. Can you bottle running? Can you measure laughter? No, but you can experience them.
Can you experience or measure soul? Nope.
edit on 10-8-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Yeah? Then what is it?
Observable gravity: Cavendish Experiment
You are observing the effects of gravity, not gravity itself. Gravity is not a thing that can be seen like a cup can be observed.
What is a soul? I don't believe in souls myself, I cannot say what a soul is, only what it supposedly is not - a material thing.
edit on
10-8-2012 by humphreysjim because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by humphreysjim
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Yeah? Then what is it?
Observable gravity: Cavendish Experiment
You are observing the effects of gravity, not gravity itself. Gravity is not a thing that can be seen like a cup can be observed.
What is a soul? I don't believe in souls myself, I cannot say what a soul is, only what it supposedly is not - a material thing.edit on 10-8-2012 by humphreysjim because: (no reason given)
I can't argue with something that is unfalsifiable. I like to try, but it usually goes nowhere. You will only keep widening the goal posts.
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
Hahaha, Ok, well try my attempt to explain it...let me know what you think.
Yes, it's unverifiable, but if it exists then that's how I think it operates.
Hahaha, Ok, well try my attempt to explain it...let me know what you think.
Yes, it's unverifiable, but if it exists then that's how I think it operates.
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Wait, you've changed your post a few times. Do you dream? I do. I have experienced dreams. Have you experienced a soul? Not me. I have never experienced a soul. Have you?
Dreams are an event, not a thing or substance. Can you bottle running? Can you measure laughter? No, but you can experience them.
Can you experience or measure soul? Nope.
Sorry about changing the post, I meant to add another post but accidentally overwrote my original, as I put in the edit. The dreams comment should have been additional, it's a bit of a mess now.
Dreams are not a thing, exactly, they are something you experience, and believers will say that souls are not a thing either. You cannot measure a dream, or a soul. Can you experience a soul? Well, believers will tell you that it is the soul that allows us to experience in the first place. Do I believe them, or think their argument is compelling? Not really, but to say there is no evidence of anyone ever finding a soul is not really evidence there is no such thing, because we would not expect evidence for an immaterial thing.
Originally posted by LightAssassin
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
Actually science hasn't entirely excluded it given the steps being made with Quantum physics. I think even Einstein and, I think Bergmann, were working on a theory for what they called the '5th' dimension which they did scrap even though they were making advances with it.
What if the 'soul' cannot be observed here? What if the light is out of the visible spectrum that we can observe?
Still so little we know. It is limiting potential to rule it out now.edit on 10-8-2012 by LightAssassin because: Note to self: Stop ATS'ing while semi-pissed
How does light control a body? I've never seen any light, visible or invisible, move and control a physical object. If our soul is light, we wouldn't need to call it soul any longer.