I'm an atheist, and lover of science.. but I had to wonder, what if there is something beyond our p

Anyone who knows me by my posts knows that I'm a logical, scientific minded person.. and an Atheist at that.. but I decided to let my mind wonder a bit beyond logic and came up with an interesting thought.. and I'm sure others have considered this so I'm not taking credit for anything.. this is just how my mind wondered..

It's well understood, well not exactly, but understood at least.. that our thoughts, senses, emotions.. and everything that makes us "us" .. is driven by our brian.. that jello up in your skull.. it drives everything that we do and sometimes it malfunctions of course.. but it's the pilot and our bodies are the machine that it controls.

It's also firmly believed as fact by those of us that are science minded.. that when your brain ceases to function, you are no more.. fade to black.. existance is gone for you.. Well this is where I allowed myself to break out of my logic restraints ever so briefly and think... what if that isn't true? .. what if we really are some being of energy that is simply locked in our physical form? much like a cocoon for a butterfly, and what if it's not the mind that informs the body, but that energy that informs the mind merely to drive the body.. energy never goes away it merely transforms...

I do not do drugs, I'm mentally fit, I'm not under any influences =) so don't go there .. I'm just allowing myself to slide out of my typical rational ways to ponder the possibility .. I've seen "ghosts" when I was younger, it very well could just be that it was my imagination.. but if not.. something like this could certainly explain it .. I just can't imagine any way to "test" this idea.. does it really seem that far fetched? What do you think?

This is a common thought amongst less rational types, yes, and one I personally would love to be true. It opens up a world of possibilities if the brain is more akin to an antennae rather than the true source of "us".

However, there are problems with that theory:

1) There is simply no good evidence for it, but perhaps more damningly,
2) We have mapped brain parts to functions. We can change a person by changing their brain, this shows clearly, to me, that what is "us" is created by that brain and not merely channelled through it

If a guy can change from a music lover, say, to a sport lover after suffering brain injury, that shows that what made that guy him was his brain - a brain as antennae may make a person crazy or dysfunctional if changed or damaged, but it would not change a personality and keep a person sane.

reply to post by miniatus

Originally posted by miniatus
.. what if we really are some being of energy that is simply locked in our physical form?

I'm taking away your atheist card, sir!

Seriously though, what if? How would that change anything? We'll just have to wait and find out.

Originally posted by humphreysjim
This is a common thought amongst less rational types, yes, and one I personally would love to be true. It opens up a world of possibilities if the brain is more akin to an antennae rather than the true source of "us".

However, there are problems with that theory:

1) There is simply no good evidence for it, but perhaps more damningly,
2) We have mapped brain parts to functions. We can change a person by changing their brain, this shows clearly, to me, that what is "us" is created by that brain and not merely channel through it

Like I said, I'm a logic minded person .. however..

1) There never would be as it can't be tested, so even if true.. we'd never know about it until it happened.
2) That would be true regardless.. if I have a remote control car and I turn left .. but someone modifies the car so that left is actually right.. it's the car that has changed, not the driver..

=) it's still an interesting possibility.. but it's one just for thought since as I said, it could never be tested so it's out of the realm of science I imagine..

reply to post by miniatus


Of course Miniatus.

You should spend much time meditating on this thought and it will transform you. No God spoken of in a book will help your scientific and logical mind because God doesn't dwell there.

Just meditate deeply on this one thought you have. The answer lies within you and you will discover it.

Originally posted by RedParrotHead
reply to post by miniatus

 

Originally posted by miniatus
.. what if we really are some being of energy that is simply locked in our physical form?

I'm taking away your atheist card, sir!

Seriously though, what if? How would that change anything? We'll just have to wait and find out.

Haha no I'm keeping my card.. I am still anti-theist .. I don't believe in a creator, but I firmly believe there's a mind numbingly amount of things we don't know.. What will it change? nothing.. but we all have thoughts

reply to post by humphreysjim

Originally posted by humphreysjim
We can change a person by changing their brain

Sorry if off topic, but that's strikes me as pretty profound and I'll have to ponder this statement for a while. Implications being, if that's true (which I think it is) then would it be acceptable to "change" violent criminals without imprisoning them as a punishment? Assuming of course that we had proven technology to do so.

Originally posted by miniatus

2) That would be true regardless.. if I have a remote control car and I turn left .. but someone modifies the car so that left is actually right.. it's the car that has changed, not the driver..

That's true to an extent but we have mapped so much of the brain now and at every step the brain dictates behavior completely. A car turning right instead of left is not quite the same as a profound personality change, what you have then is a broken and dysfunctional car, whereas the person can have a personality change yet still be perfectly fine in every way(not dysfunctional or broken in any way).

If the brain dictated personality, what else would be left of us when the brain was taken away, just a mindless energy? What use is that to us?

I would so love to believe that something other than materialism was true, but I struggle to see how it could be when the brain has been mapped so well and showed to not be a conduit, but instead the cause of everything we do - our entire personalty.

Originally posted by RedParrotHead

Implications being, if that's true (which I think it is) then would it be acceptable to "change" violent criminals without imprisoning them as a punishment? Assuming of course that we had proven technology to do so.

I think so. We have done similar with electro-shock therapy and the like, it's just that our knowledge of the brain is not quite deep enough that we can doing anything less crude than sending volts into brain cells.

At the moment we can much more reliably damage a brain rather than tweak it for good, but we are making good progress towards the latter - give it 100 years and we'll be at a point where we can accurately mould a personality through changes in their brain, if you ask me.

I think you may now be an agnostic as opposed to an atheist . I firmly belief the way to look for the truth is look within, definetly not without, theirin lies religion, and it has very rarely proved to be a good thing in my opinion.

I cant say i firmly believe in an afterlife and i envy those who say they do, however im about 95% there. I do not believe i am this bag of bones, and i do not believe my thoughts and emotions are just electical impulses from my brain, (or brian as you put in your op) whose brian????

Dont ask me how i know this (well almost know this) , i just do.

reply to post by miniatus

Great science has always come from thinking outside the box. Don't be afraid of it, embrace it.

I would have once considered myself Atheist but now I am Agnostic. Why? The most basic reason of all, nobody can prove one way of another. We can all debate it forever but there is no solid proof. That being said, I do believe in evolution and am very science minded but my logical brain also tells me that we simply do not understand everything. When we don't know everything, anything is possible.

I've thought of this same idea many times. As the second post suggests, there is no evidence to suggest there is any residual energy left from our brains after we die but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What if when we die, our 'energy' is release from the 3rd dimension to the 4th? What if our 3D bodies hold us in spacetime locking us into our daily trip through time. What if when we die, we exist through all of time instead of just intersecting it?

I have plenty of thoughts like this and I believe it is a possibility because you can't prove it otherwise. I ponder these things often and try to find answers that make sense to me. I don't really care what anyone else thinks, only what I believe.

reply to post by miniatus


People have been talking about the soul for thousands of years. It takes form as spirit, life-force, ego, consciousness, divine energy etc. The soul is an idea that is slowly dying as we learn more and more of the body. And any concept of soul is the product of thousands of years of Platonic and Aristotelean abstractions of things we understood little about—in this case, the human body.

Its obvious and evident that there is no soul. And as wicked and frightening as it sounds, it is closer to reality than any other lofty idea. The soul exists as an idea and a fleeting hope nothing more.

Originally posted by thedoctorswife

whose brian????

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Originally posted by humphreysjim

Originally posted by miniatus

2) That would be true regardless.. if I have a remote control car and I turn left .. but someone modifies the car so that left is actually right.. it's the car that has changed, not the driver..

That's true to an extent but we have mapped so much of the brain now and at every step the brain dictates behavior completely. A car turning right instead of left is not quite the same as a profound personality change, what you have then is a broken and dysfunctional car, whereas the person can have a personality change yet still be perfectly fine in every way(not dysfunctional or broken in any way).

If the brain dictated personality, what else would be left of us when the brain was taken away, just a mindless energy? What use is that to us?

I would so love to believe that something other than materialism was true, but I struggle to see how it could be when the brain has been mapped so well and showed to not be a conduit, but instead the cause of everything we do - our entire personalty.

The mapping of the brain is still meaningless if what I proposed were actually true, I don't think it is.. but I still find it an interesting possibility and one that can't be proved or disproved really .. The mind is absolutely the driving force behind everything we do .. but still, if there were something above that.. using the mind as a controller so to speak, much like you sitting at your computer and the CPU is controlling the system.. if you alter the CPU you can change every single fundamental thing about it..

Lets look at personality or emotion... if you could change happy to sad... you're only changing the output.. If you could make a person go from polite to violent, you're still only changing the output .. ( the programmer in me is speaking now ) .. I am, in my proposition, talking about the input.. the brain merely processes and provides output ..

And who is to say what is left? .. if there's "something" at a level above the brain, whats to say it doesn't have feelings or motivation.. it obviously would =)

Again this is all far fetched.. but it's still something that can't be proved or disproved.. it's merely interesting to me.. I can't say even I believe it without evidence.. but there never will be unless it's a quantum event and science advances.. ( if it's even slightly true )

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by miniatus

 

People have been talking about the soul for thousands of years. It takes form as spirit, life-force, ego, consciousness, divine energy etc. The soul is an idea that is slowly dying as we learn more and more of the body. And any concept of soul is the product of thousands of years of Platonic and Aristotelean abstractions of things we understood little about—in this case, the human body.

Its obvious and evident that there is no soul. And as wicked and frightening as it sounds, it is closer to reality than any other lofty idea. It exists as an idea, nothing more.

As a science minded person even I cannot say it's obvious and evident.. the only thing we can say is that we don't know or that it's unlikely and without evidence.

I think everyone can take comfort in the fact that the Universe is so vast and mysterious, that we will never figure it all out, and that death can never actually be proved to be the end - it just isn't possible, some will believe, and others will doubt, but we will always be clueless.

reply to post by humphreysjim


The consciousness, the 'soul', is not so much the driver of a vehicle as it is a hard drive storing information but not just the info you experience in your life but a drive that continues to operate after the CPU, Power supply and motherboard no longer exist, and is passed on to a new CPU and motherboard. Excuse the metaphors, please.

This drive can be accessed and on it is stored the information, the rules, and the tasks this drive must perform in order to successfully continue uploading valuable information until the drive is full and has completed its tasks.

reply to post by miniatus



Yes, miniatus, there is an energy, it's called your soul. Why would you try to deny that you have one? You are more than a sack of meat. And meditation, sounds a lot like prayer. Quit playing atheist, open your heart and welcome reality. It sounds like He is tapping on your shoulder. There is nothing irrational about a belief in a higher being that created us, however, there is an agenda to make it seem so.

Originally posted by thedoctorswife
I think you may now be an agnostic as opposed to an atheist . I firmly belief the way to look for the truth is look within, definetly not without, theirin lies religion, and it has very rarely proved to be a good thing in my opinion.

I cant say i firmly believe in an afterlife and i envy those who say they do, however im about 95% there. I do not believe i am this bag of bones, and i do not believe my thoughts and emotions are just electical impulses from my brain, (or brian as you put in your op) whose brian????

Dont ask me how i know this (well almost know this) , i just do.

Agnostic might be a better term ... though I think I do tend towards atheist in that I simply do not believe in a creator of any sort.. the belief of something beyond our physical form doesn't make me sit on the fence about God.. I don't view it as a soul either.. I just view it as potentially something we don't yet know about ourselves..

I don't even consider it an afterlife.. I just consider it life.. an evolution of ourselves I suppose

Ultimately at the end of the day though, I will be back to not day dreaming =)

Originally posted by lambs to lions
reply to post by miniatus

 

Yes, miniatus, there is an energy, it's called your soul. Why would you try to deny that you have one? You are more than a sack of meat. And meditation, sounds a lot like prayer. Quit playing atheist, open your heart and welcome reality. It sounds like He is tapping on your shoulder. There is nothing irrational about a belief in a higher being that created us, however, there is an agenda to make it seem so.

I never proposed meditation, someone else did .. I'm not playing atheist, I firmly do not believe in God...