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Bob Lazar, the real deal, or disinformationist or just a conman?

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posted on Apr, 26 2003 @ 01:53 PM
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So what do you think of this guy? He charges to use his website... He claimed he worked at area 51 with aliens and has been inside alien crafts....

a few links about him
www.virtuallystrange.net...
www.mufor.org...
www.ufomind.com...
www.unexplained-mysteries.com...
www.ufomind.com...




posted on Apr, 26 2003 @ 01:54 PM
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I couldn't create a poll in the people forum, so if it needs to be moved go right ahead.



posted on Apr, 26 2003 @ 01:56 PM
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Apologies for the layout of this but I received it in an e-mail as is, and I really can't be bothered to make it more legible.

>Bob Lazar The Quintessential Dissinformation Officer
>
>by
>James L. Choron Oh what a wonderful world we live in, where a man can come
>from relative obscurity into the limelight of national interest in a few
>short minutes. So is the story of Robert (Bob) Lazar, who in one
>silhouetted interview in 1989, was transformed from a no one to immediate
>fame and notoriety. Just when the UFO community needed some one to bolster
>their beliefs and add some credence to claims made by so-called "experts"
>in the area, this man appears with a tale that every one wanted to be true.
>Bob told a story of working not only in the country's most secret facility
>but a section of this facility that was unknown even to the "experts". You
>are no doubt aware of the name of this facility as Area 51, aka Groom Lake,
>Dreamland and several other nicknames. The super secret area was allegedly,
>according to Bob Lazar, known as S-4 or Papoose Lake. The wealth of
>information that Mr. Lazar spewed forth was phenomenal. He claimed to have
>personally seen and worked on alien craft and technology far in advance of
>our own capabilities. He provided drawings of some of these items and
>technical explanations that delighted the UFO clan to no end. He was a
>modern day Moses giving the masses the new laws on paper instead of stone.
>As an investigative reporter, one must approach this story with tongue in
>cheek. while literally digesting a very large grain of salt. When something
>seems to be too good to be true it usually is. And... after examining the
>evidence available to me I have come to a conclusion that may not be unique
>to the reader but is in fact quite a novel idea for me. It is my opinion
>that Robert (Bob) Lazar is a government plant. A professional
>dissinformation officer trained and paid to insert information into a
>specified area and then to sit back and watch what happens.He would seem to
>be a practitioner of the most specialized and MAJESTIC of "MAJICal" arts,
>the "limited disclosure". This, then, is an opinion, our own opinion
>based on the facts available, or in some cases, the lack of facts
>available.
>Lazar claims that he first came forward with his information as protection
>against his own imminent disappearance, which would have been caused by
>powerful government forces. This is certainly plausible, as he would not
>have been the first Unidentified Flying Object resseacher to encounter an
>"accident", an "unexpected" and "fatal" illness of "sudden onset", or to
>simply vanish, never to be seen or heard from again... The fact is, the
>ranks of the "turncoats" are rife with such cases, running the gammut from
>the notable to the obscure. A few of those who have suffered such fates
>are: 1. James Forrestall (former Secretary of Defencse), who committed
>"suicide" by jumping from a barred and guarded hospital window at Bethesda
>Naval Hospital where he was being "examined" for "mental illness" only a
>few months after the Roswell Disc Incident. 2. Admiral Roscoe Hillenkotter
>(first Director of the Central Intellegence Agency). who died of
>"complications" from a series of heart attacks following his public
>disclosure that "UFOs are real". 3. Lt. Colonel Philip J. Corso (former
>Pentagon official and member of the National Security Agency Staff) who
>suffered a series of fatal "heart attacks" some three months after the
>release of his book "The Day After Roswell" (which exposed U.S. Army
>reverse engineering of "artifacts" found in the Roswell "crash" site), was
>released. As stated, the sudden death and disabillity of those involved in
>the telling of the truth, especially the truth surrounding the UFO
>controversy, is nothing new. Given a normal progression of events
>following this "revelation" by Lazar, it would be a completely plausible
>story... In fact, one it is begging the question to ask how one, who
>allegedly knows so much, and is so vocal, is still, seemingly mariculously,
>alive, when so many, who have said less... are not. However, as is the
>usual case with Lazar's stories, immediately after the statement of an
>accepted fact, things take a sudden twist toward the patently strange and,
>equaly patently and obviously, unbelievable.
>Lazar goes on to claim that this attempt to make him disappear was
>discovered when he tried to obtain a copy of his birth certificate and was
>told that none existed. He then claims to have started inquiries into areas
>of his employment and education and found that records concerning himself
>were also non-existent. Our reaction to this information is "how
>convenient". In making this claim, Lazar has just set the bases for
>explaining any inconsistencies that researchers would or would not find in
>his story, including his total lack of verifiable "identity"(including his
>very name) and the complete absence of any verifiable credentials in his
>name, including diplomas, degrees or work history within, or outside the
>United States Government. It does not, however, explain all of the
>inconsistencies which we found, though, not by any means. Lazar claims that
>he does not know whom his real parents are... that he was adopted by the
>family that raised him. Yet court records from 1990 show that Lazar
>provided a parole officer with a birth certificate indicating that he was
>born January 26 1959 in Coral Gables Florida to Albert Lazar and Phyllis
>Lazar (nee Berliner). These are the people whom he claims adopted him. If
>this were so, logic would indicate that they would not be shown as the
>birth parents on the certificate... or would it? This is not necessarilly
>the case. Until the mid 1960's, when "open adoption" became the "norm", the
>standard practice, all across the United States (and particularlly in the
>South) was to either destroy or seal the adopted child's "original' birth
>certificate, and issue a new one in the name of the adopted parents, with
>the "adopted " name issued, officially to the child. In order to make
>things more difficult for the child (who was viewed as having no right to
>any knowledge of his "natural" or "birth" parents) the birth certificate
>could also be altered in several other ways. Notably, the date and place of
>birth could, and often were, altered, along with the names of any hospitals
>or institutions in volved. In cases in which the original was "sealed"
>rather than destroyed, outright (in States such as Georgia, Texas and
>Florida) there is a "grandfather clause in the law which states that a
>period of fifty years must pass before the adopted child may inquire as to
>the conditions of his/her birth, and even at that time, a court order,
>demonstrating a "pressing need" must be obtained before such records may be
>opened for examination. When the majority of States in the United States
>adopted (pardon the play on words), the policy of "open adoption", the new
>law made such records available, either upon attaining "majority" (without
>the necessity of a court order) accessible to the child at any time,
>through his/her parents. The new legislation did not, however, provide for
>disclosure of information to those who were adopted under the previous
>statutes. They were still, quite literally, in the dark. In many cases, the
>adoptive parents were not even aware of the identity of the "natural" or
>"birth" parents of their child.
>While Lazar's story is plausible, it is, at the same time, convenient. It
>might well be only a small item but already it shows the attempt to hide
>the truth... To cloud the air, and to confuse and muddy the waters
>surrounding the man. These things being given, it still does nothing to end
>the controversey surrounding Lazar, or his otherwise missing background.
>Let us, then, look a little deeper into the man, and, at the information
>that can be gathered about him.
>Robert Lazar graduated from W. Tresper Clarke High School (Westbury New
>York) in August of 1976. August not May, like most of the students,
>indicating that he was required to take summer school courses to complete
>his degree. He was also listed as graduating 261 out of 369 in his class,
>not not exactly a "shining star" or overly studious scholastic background
>for a man who claims to have achieved several Masters Degrees, and a PhD
>in the highly technical (but nebuluously described, by Lazar) field of
>"engineering". It is also known that during his last year at high school
>he did not take any course in chemistry, the area he was eventually
>supposed to excel in.
>At the completion of his final school year his family moved to California
>where we find him enrolled in Pierce College, a 2-year Community College.
>Mr. Stanton Friedman during an investigation of his educational claims
>verified this information.
>Lazar also claims also at this time to have been taking courses by
>orrespondence from a "Pacifica University". He says that this is the place
>he received his Bachelors Degree. It should be noted here, however, that
>Pacifica University was shut down in 1978 by the State of California, for
>"selling" degrees. So he may have a Bachelors Degree, but did he earn it or
>buy it? It seems likely that this "degree" is nothing more than a "piece of
>paper", obtained from a "degree mill" similar to those which customarilly
>sell "ordinations" obscure "churches" and "medical degrees" from
>"universities" based in the Caribbean.
>He next claims to have attended Cal Tech and MIT, both institutions deny
>his attendance, and no records of his ever being on campus (at least under
>the name "Lazar" have ever been found by any researcher). He, by the way,
>can not name any of his professors or classmates from either school, nor do
>any remember him. This is quite unusual in the, admittedly, very close knit
>community surrounding the "hard" sciences. Now, while on the subject of
>Lazar's education, or lack thereof, let us look at some interesting facts
>with relationship to "time". Lazar was born in 1959, this seems to be one
>of the few established facts about the man. That being the case, when he
>allegedly went to work at the S-4, "Papoose Lake" facility in December
>of 1988, as he claims, he would have been just short of thirty years of
>age. If this was the case, then it must be assumed that a man who graduated
>well into the bottom quarter of his High School class, had managed to amass
>at least three advanced degrees prior to his thirtieth birthday, one of
>which being a PhD in some field, as yet undetermined, in Engineering. Let
>us examine the time frame involved. Lazar graduated from High School in
>August, 1976. If he went directly into a four-year college, or university,
>which we can safely assume, from the known data, that he did not, since
>there is ample evidence that he first enrolled in a two-year "junior
>college", then the earliest date at which he could have received his
>Bachelor of Science Degree, assuming a normal academic year, was in May,
>1980. Since he was in a hignly technical field, this schedule assumes that
>he would have attended one, or both summer sessions, each year, until
>graduation. This being the case, the earliest date at which he could
>possibly have received his Master of Sciences Degree, given the normal
>academic load, and the necessity of writing a thesis (which has yet to be
>discovered by any researcher), would be May, 1982. Likewise, the earliest
>date at which Lazar could have received his PhD, once again, assuming a
>normal academic load, and the necessity of presenting a dissertation
>(which, likewise, has not been unearthed by any researcher, although
>publication, even at the university level is required, and would be
>publicly cataloged), would be May, 1984. This time frame, is a known
>"killer". it is one which only the most dedicated of scholars can maintain,
>and even then,with complete financial support. It is impossible to maintain
>while working, and even more so for a married student. Keep in mind that
>Lazar married, for the first time, in 1980, which is very early on in his
>alleged academic career, and is known to have been employed, and
>self-employed for most of this time. Also keep in mind that he had no
>chemistry background in High School (required for all Engineering majors at
>the undergraduate level) and was, demonstrably, a less than shining
>scholar, having not only graduated in the lowest quarter of his High School
>class, but also having graduated three months late... It is bordering on
>the absurd to assume that, given these facts, Lazar could acqire either the
>academic credentials, or the level of experience needed to qualify for a
>position at what is supposedly one of the most advanced and most secret
>facilities in the entire world, in the less than four years between the
>earliest possible time that he could acquire a PhD, given ideal conditions,
>and his alleged date of employment at Groom Lake. The United States
>Government simply does not hire "beginners" for such positions, unless they
>are truly "prodogies", in which case, Lazar's academic history would
>certainly be less "murky" than it most certainly is. The next official
>record of Bob Lazar is his marriage to Carol Nadine Strong. They were
>married on July 27 1980. On the marriage certificate Lazar lists his
>occupation as Electronics Engineer and his highest school grade as grade
>12. His place of residence is shown as Canoga Park California. We next find
>them residing in Los Alamos in 1982. At this point, he is "self-employed"
>with a photo processing business run from their residence. Lazar is also
>involved in a project to build a jet car and is displayed in the local
>paper with several pictures of him with the vehicle. The project was a
>failure, little more than an elaborate scheme to garner money from
>investors. No "production" car was ever built. This is the period when
>Lazar claims to have been working at the Los Alamos National Laboratory and
>this is confirmed by the LANL phone book in which he is listed. Here we
>come across the first truly gross inconsistency in his story. While his
>employment at LANL can be verified to some extent, legal papers entered by
>Lazar during his application for bankruptcy in 1986 show him during this
>time as self-employed. There is no mention of his work at Los Alamos. This
>could well indicate that he was a "private contractor" on the order of
>those who routinely do menial work at such facilities such as maintaince,
>janitorial services or "contract" photo processing.This is the beginning of
>a very confused and strange period in Lazars life.
>In this period, the Lazars move to Las Vegas, open their photo processing
>business there and begin to accumulate huge debts... borrowing many
>thousands of dollars. This in itself is not unusual or abnormal but it is
>strange that Lazar was able to obtain a loan for $60,000 with the only
>collateral being a used Honda vehicle worth about $6,000. Personally, I
>would like to know the name of his bank manager so I can get a loan from
>him, as well. Of course, this was in a period which is known as one of
>"banking scandals and financial scams...
>However, all this aside, it is the following events that are of the
>greatest concern... 1. On April 19th 1986 Lazar marries a woman who states
>her name on the marriage certificate as Tracy Anne Murk. He is still
>married at this time to his wife Carol. 2. On April 21st 1986, just two
>days later, Carol Lazar is found dead at her house on Ann Greta. The
>official cause of death is listed as "suicide" by "Inhalation of motor
>vehicle exhaust". No autopsy was performed. 3. On July 21st 1986, Lazar
>files for Chapter 7 bankruptcy citing "loss of business and death of
>spouse" as the reasons. He listed his monthly expenses for mortgage,
>utilities, food, car payments, etc., as totaling $2,360. He also listed
>another monthly debt of $13,150. Although required by law to specify what
>it was, he did not. Thus puts his total monthly expenses at $15,510. No
>wonder he applied for bankruptcy.
>In this same document Lazar states that he has no idea how much his
>business produced in the way of capital for the previous 2 years and that
>these records and the sum of $15,000 from his bank account went missing
>with his accountant Scott R. Maxwell of Santa Fe. A police report to this
>effect was filed with the Los Alamos Police.
>He also states that he had no other form of income for the period.
>What happened to his job at Los Alamos National Laboratory? How did Lazar
>manage to accumulate $15,000 in savings when his debt load was so high? On
>October 12th 1986 Lazar and Tracy do something very unusual, they remarry.
>This time Tracy uses the name Jackie Dianne Evans and lists her residence
>as the house on Ann Greta. What is going on here? Why the total change of
>identity? This is, to say the least, very confusing (and it may meant to
>be) and interesting at the same time. On March 19th 1987, the final decree
>for the bankruptcy is issued. Showing Lazar as having $173,250 in assets
>and $270,324 in debts. On March 16th 1988 the house on Ann Greta is
>repossessed for non-payment of mortgage from July 1st, 1987 to that date.
>Six days later, on March 22nd 1988. Tracy/Jackie buys a house in Las Vegas.
>And Lazar signs a legal document, a quitclaim (a quitclaim is a document
>transferring whatever rights or interests a property owner may have, if
>any, to another without any guarantee or warranty of title.) this gives
>full ownership of the residence to his wife. Several months later, sometime
>in December of 1988, Lazar claims to have started work at the S-4,
>"Papoose Lake" facility. There is no reasonable or verifiable explanation
>of how he was recruited for this position, if he was at all. There is also
>no evidence that he actually worked at such a facility.
>It is doubtful that a super secret facility would have hired a man with his
>unstable financial background and uncertified scholastic records. It is
>further unlikely that any government agency, secret or not, would hire a
>person with the questionable personal "biographical" background that Lazar
>seems to have. Historically, people who have financial problems are at a
>very high risk to steal or leak classified material. It is a lso a fact of
>life that the security investigations of any person working at such a
>facility, conducted by a minimum of two seperate Federal agencies (usually
>the FBI and the agency which is the actual employer... or a branch of the
>military such as Air Force CID... ) would find reason to deny employment to
>anyone who had been closely related to what amounts to documentable bigamy
>and a suicide investigation (involving one of the "wifes". Such a person
>would represent, at best, a possible breach of security, through the
>application of blackmail... and at worst, a person so strapped for cash
>(aside from the bankrupcy) that the sale of classified material would be
>likely. If, nowever, Lazar did work at the Los Alamos National Laboratory,
>then who hired this man and why? Just three months later, on Wednesday
>March 22nd, Bob takes his wife and Gene Huff and John Lear to Tikaboo
>Valley (which overlooks Area 51) to see what he alleges to be a night test
>of a flying disc. He returns the next Wednesday night, March 29th, again
>with his wife and Gene Huff and another man named Jim Taliani. That night
>it is reported that they took videotape of the test. On April 5th 1988 they
>returned for the third Wednesday in a row. This time attending were Lazar,
>his wife, Gene Huff and John Lear. They were spotted by Area 51 security
>forces and arrested and held by the Lincoln County Sheriffs Department.
>Lazar was ordered to report to Indian Springs Airfield and here it is very
>confusing for he says that he was never officially fired that he only had
>his clearance revoked. He further claims that it was his decision to not
>return to work for fear of his life. This is, to say the least, highly
>unlikely. Anyone who has personally worked in, and around high level
>government positions with an upper scale security clearance knows that
>once detained for being found in a position of compromise they would not
>have been allowed to leave the site until a satisfactory explanation was
>offered and submitted. People simply do not work at a "super-secret"
>facility, be caught with others who do not have security clearance viewing
>the testing of items from that facility and then be released to go home
>with very little opposition. It simply does not happen that way... at the
>very least, a full-blown investigation would have ensued. When a person is
>an employee of any government facility, regardless of it's status...
>especially a secret facility that person is subject to more rules and
>regulations and authority than the general public and... is therefore
>subject to military, or military-style discipline. It is, therefore,
>reasonable to assume that an emergency investigative team would have come
>to the person, where they were detained and started the process of
>investigating the breach of security. The person being investigated would
>not have been released until the completion of the investigation for fear
>of you transmitting vital information to an unknown entity. So why were the
>four released so quickly and no follow up of the incident is found? There
>seems to be only one logical explanation, it was all planned in advance.
>Bob Lazar was arrested and "fired" to give credibility to his story of
>running from government executioners. He is now firmly entrenched as a
>radical "loose canon" with allegedly superior information. How did he
>gather so much information when he only worked there just over three
>months?
>As stated before, it generally takes months and months of non-sensible and
>useless jobs before any employee is trusted with anything even remotely
>labeled secret. Most employees of government facilities are never involved
>with anything this grand in nature. The government operates, and has
>traditionally operated on a "need to know" basis, with the disimination of
>information limited to those who have an actual use for it, and tightly
>controlled even among those few. A classic example would be the areospace
>program, in which personnel working to assemble components for a particular
>sattalite, are never given access to the completed device, or even to a
>fully asssmbled component containing the part which they produce, unless
>they are actually involved in the final assembly of either the component or
>the satallite, itself. This practice limits the amount of information which
>can be leaked by limiting access to information in general. The principal
>is simple, a person who has never seen the satallite, or been around it
>cannot describe it, diagram it, photograph it or in any way compromise it.
>In any such project, only a very few top personnel have access to "all"
>information pertinent to the project, while those involved in the "nuts and
>bolts" of the project are limited to only those things which they "need to
>know". In short, it is a practical impossibillity that Lazar (or whatever
>his name is), was ever in a position to have access to the information that
>the professes to possess. Again there is only one logical answer to the
>question of how he came about this information, if it, in fact, is genuine,
>which is highly doubtful. The information was fed to him. No one man could
>have seen and done the number of things that Lazar says he did in such a
>short period of time. It is a physical and operational impossibillity.
>The most logical standpoint to take, with regard to Lazar, is that he was
>given the information, some of which is true and some not... and... it is
>more than likely... highly possible, in fact, that even Lazar does not know
>which is which. This is the brilliance of the dissinformation officer, he
>has no idea what information he is given is true and what is not..
>therefore, he can not offer up an opinion if questioned on it later, he
>has to believe that everything he is given is real, and this belief adds to
>his credibillity as a "witness"... It is easy to lie when one believes the
>lie. In a case such as this, the story relies on the Disinformation
>Officer's ability to "sell" the story to others, this is where his
>credibility comes into play. If he has fashioned his background and
>associations carefully he will always be an unknown quantity, and therefore
>can claim that government forces are sabotaging his image. Such is the
>apparent case with Bob Lazar... If there is enough confusion about his
>background and abilities, this very confusion will take the focus off the
>quality of his information, and place the burden of proof on others. He
>will be a man of mystery who every now and again will startle people with
>his apparent knowledge of things he should not know. Now, such a theory
>wold tend to indicate that Lazar is one of three things... which would
>amply explain the observerd behavior and supposed knowledge of this man: 1.
>A complete opportunist and con-man who is without conscious, and compeltly
>devoid of any emotion other than personal self interest. This being the
>case, it means that Lazar has completely fabricated his story, on his own,
>and is using the visible inconsistencies of his own life and events
>surrounding his questionable history to further manufacture his tale as he
>goes along. This would explain the constant changes in his story, and the
>apparent lack of basic information on Lazar's part. 2. The unwilling dupe
>of the government who, while cooperating through self interest, is being
>"blackmailed" into being the government's "performing seal".
>Under this theory, Lazar was, as we surmise, a rather low ranikng employee,
>or contract employee at Grrom Lake who "got currious". If this theory is
>correct, Lazar heard rumors of tests taking place, was told, or discovered
>for himself thelikely location, and went out for a little "amateur
>photography", most likely motivated by a desire to sell the footage later
>in order to ease his financial strain. This would be comparable to the
>Aldrich Ames case, in which Ames, chronically strapped for cash, was
>willing to literally sell his soul, along with a quantity of secret
>information, for a "price". The difference arises in that Lazar got caught
>by those who needed his "services", and was allowed to "go free" with the
>provision that he would do their bidding. This assumes that the government
>was aware, not only of his "spying" (for lack of a better word) but also
>his "questionable' background, including bigamy and the investigation
>surrounding his wife's death. All of this, including his videotaping of the
>experiments, could be held over his head for years, in order to guarantee
>"good behavior". This is also similar to the case of a convicted felon,
>with a "useful" talent, being released from prison early by an agency which
>needs his specific talent. This was done, freely, with regard to German
>Rocket scientists at the end of the Second World War under the auspices of
>"Operation Paper Clip". 3. Is, and has been, from the onset, a "government
>agent" of some sort, planted in the UFO community to deliberately spread
>discord and rumor. This is self explanitory. Under this theory, Lazar is a
>totally "constructed" being... a person who has, from the outset been
>equipped and groomed for the exact function that he is performing... that
>of spreading disinformation, or facilitating a "limited disclosure" whereby
>the government prepares the public for an eventual "full disclosurea"
>if/when it becomes necesssary, by deliberately leaking limited bits and
>pieces of the truth, in advance, dribbling it out a bit at at time, mixed
>with other information which is patently fantastic. Regaqrdless of which of
>these catagories Lazar fits into, he seems to be a person who, by whatever
>means, was either manufactured, or is being encouraged by the government
>with the express purpose of releasing information into the populace to
>cause confusion and dissention amongst the ranks of the faithful. The old
>Roman adage of "Divide and Conquer" lives on. The fact is, as one reader
>put it... "Lazar is the kind of guy you would listen to twice... three
>times if you have your tinfoil hat screwed on a bit too tight..."



posted on Apr, 26 2003 @ 02:33 PM
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I think Mr. Lazar, just got PWNED.



posted on Apr, 26 2003 @ 05:06 PM
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The whole thing I find very interesting about the Alien/UFO thing is that we have evidence that

1, Nikola Tesla was working on technology as early as 1880 that produce the *exact* same kind of effects as observed by UFO sightings.

2, Various scientists were working on similar technologies throughout the 1930s.

3, The Germans did considerable research on similar technology throughout WWII, and apparently got some X Craft operational

4, T Townshend Brown and other scientists proved scientifically that magneto-hydrodynamic and electro-gravitic propulsion was possible and feasible... and then they and thier research disappeared from public view in the 1950s

5, Ever notice that the UFOs that have been sighted throughout history seem to evolve and get more modern from the 1950s to present?

Now, I believe there are some legitimate alien encounters, and Roswell may well have been legit... and it likely gave the military the perfect cover to develope thier already conceptualized X Craft program.



posted on Apr, 27 2003 @ 12:33 AM
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There's lots in the archives here, Lysergic: a "(con)man of his times": Uri Geller Syndrome



posted on Apr, 27 2003 @ 04:34 AM
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it's horrible that someone would do something like that but it's the world we live in, how the heck did he have 270k+ debt in late 80's man... wasteful.

[Edited on 27-4-2003 by Lysergic]



posted on Aug, 16 2003 @ 05:24 AM
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This was a long but enjoyable read. I do believe it is very truthful and should be taken seriously. I do believe that Bob Lazar might infact be working for the government to spready disinformation...



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