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Christians, I would like your opinion on these verses.

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posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


I never said anything about being upset to be alive. It's assumption after assumption with you.

I clearly stated that god regrets making us, nowhere in that quote does it mention anything about my feelings.




posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



I have not one time changed the definitions of those two words, not once. I don't know where you are getting that from, I think you are just imagining it.

Something with full knowledge of everything (omniscient) cannot repent (feel deep sorrow and regret) for something he knew he would NEVER do. What do you not understand about that? It is so damn simple, yet you cannot seem to grasp it. What's the deal here? Are you seriously this delusional?
edit on 11-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


Do you have proof or evidence that supports the statement "Something with full knowledge cannot repent"? Where did you find that logic at? Is that something you believe you understand, and what is that understanding based on? Certainly it is not based in the definitions of the words themselves, it is a fractured understanding. Just because someone is omniscient does not mean they cannot repent. Omniscience includes the knowledge of needing to repent, does it not? Either knowledge of repentance falls under ALL or it does not. And that is the very point to be made, ALL means ALL, it does not disclude repentance by any means.
edit on 8/11/2012 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


It takes logic to understand it, something you clearly lack on the subject.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


I never said anything about being upset to be alive. It's assumption after assumption with you.

I clearly stated that god regrets making us, nowhere in that quote does it mention anything about my feelings.


There is an overriding theme to your posts, you present your dismay over the regret God had for making us. That is a feeling and you continue to display it. Context means everything when it comes to written communication, from the Bible to posts on ATS. I did not one time post a Bible verse to make my point, I used contextual definitions that are extra-Biblical. That means I did not attempt to use the Bible to persuade you of my viewpoint. I can't be accused of Bible-thumping.

I will say this again, by the virtue of the definitions of the words, my statement still stands.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


It takes logic to understand it, something you clearly lack on the subject.


That is true, I clearly do not understand your logic at all. Your logic seems to stem from a fractured understanding given to you by the people you dislike. You are holding to that fractured understanding trying to argue against it. Please give us definitions you have found from other sources that support your viewpoint against omniscience.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


Provide definitions that support your belief that something can repent while being omniscient.

You are using the verse we are discussing as your proof that god can repent, if not, what is your proof that god can repent other than what the bible says?

Your logic: 'If the bible says it, it must be true! It doesn't matter if sound logic says the contrary or not.'



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


I am not presenting any dismay, I am simply saying what the bible says. It seems with your logic, quoting the bible implies dismay. Another assumption.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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God did refuse these Jews whom came from the corrupt Egyption nation . These who had been contaminated and whose heart was hardened to God had no part in the nation of Israel . Instead God marched them around in the desert for 40 years until they that had worshipped the golden calf had passed away . Even Moses did not see the promised land . God is not a liar . We may not have the logic to see what God is saying at all times but with study we will . reply to post by Deetermined
 



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Your logic: 'If the bible says it, it must be true! It doesn't matter if sound logic says the contrary or not.'





When at any time did I say that or imply that? If that were the case, I should have quoted endless Bible verses. No, I used the definitions from Dictionary.com in my argument. Show me my posts that say "The Bible says so". I merely stated that to understand the Bible one must understand the context. And that is why a knowledge of words becomes fundamentally important.

I gave my opinion based on secular definition, not Biblical definition. I am basing my argument on the definitions of the words themselves to which I have consistently done over and over again. The strawman tactic continues. You strawmanned by saying "your logic: if the Bible says it, it must be true...". When did I at any time make that statement? Did I quote other verses? No. And you used the verse to attempt to rebut the concept of omniscience.

We are discussing the concept of omniscience. My interpretation stems from the meanings of the words omniscience and repentance. Are you disputing Dictionary.com?



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


Provide definitions that support your belief that something can repent while being omniscient.

You are using the verse we are discussing as your proof that god can repent, if not, what is your proof that god can repent other than what the bible says?

Your logic: 'If the bible says it, it must be true! It doesn't matter if sound logic says the contrary or not.'





Logical Fallacies


Taxonomy of Fallacies Once it has been decided what is to count as a logical fallacy, the question remains as to how the various fallacies are to be categorised. The most common classification of fallacies groups fallacies of relevance, of ambiguity, and of presumption. Arguments that commit fallacies of relevance rely on premises that aren’t relevant to the truth of the conclusion. The various irrelevant appeals are all fallacies of relevance, as are ad hominems. Arguments that commit fallacies of ambiguity, such as equivocation or the straw man fallacy, manipulate language in misleading ways.


There is my source on your strawmanning and logical fallacies.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


No I'm not disputing Dictionary.com, that's why listed the definitions.

If you provide a definition that states you can be omniscient and repentant at the same time, I will provide a definition that you can't. Fair? Good luck finding one though.


What do you base your belief that god can repent on? Did you read my analogy with the author? Does it shed some light on what I mean?



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


I agree it was a straw man, but that is the first time I have used one thus far, and I 'repent' saying it. Fair enough?



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

God is not a liar

Allowing people to die of old age is not the same as killing them all outright.
edit on 11-8-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


I agree it was a straw man, but that is the first time I have used one thus far, and I 'repent' saying it. Fair enough?


Fair enough.

OK, now this is what I base my opinion on. The definition of the word omniscient itself includes the word ALL. Therefore, God would have to be omniscient because it implies that repentance is part of all knowledge. No one can really repent without knowledge of what consequences came about because of the original thought or action. God knew beforehand, according to the verse in question. Therefore, the repentance was simply a part of that foreknowledge because it falls under the definition and category of ALL.

God knew before it happened, God knew after it happened, God knew and understood the need of repentance. Repentance includes the definition of sorrow. God remains omniscient because He knew the event would take place. That does not mean God removed from Himself the choice to create. He chose to create, knowing what would happen.

The practicality of this foreknowledge is that sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils, knowing that whatever choice we make is going to cause an effect, either positive or negative. And that concept is part of our understanding as human beings confronted with choices. For God to impart that wisdom to mankind means that God would know that humans would be confronted with choices as well, but how to handle those choices is what we are to learn. Certainly humans do not always have foreknowledge and we have limited understanding and wisdom. The wisdom of freedom to make choices is part of that knowledge. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils. To present God in such a way shows us that very concept in this verse.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


Repenting means deep regret, if you repent something, you acknowledge that some kind of mistake was made, do you agree?

If god repented what he said, that means he acknowledged that he made a mistake, correct? I thought your god was infallible and never prone to mistakes. If he didn't believe he made a mistake then he could not have repented.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


Repenting means deep regret, if you repent something, you acknowledge that some kind of mistake was made, do you agree?


Not necessarily does it mean you made a mistake. That's why I chose to say "the lesser of two evils". I will put it this way also...and merely using this as an example.

Suppose (hypothetically speaking), a person finds themselves in a situation in which they have to choose to save someone even if it means someone else is going to die. For instance, (and I read this example from a poster on ATS a year ago, but it fits), a man is driving his car with his children in it and comes across another car in a flooded, raging river. The car has children in it who are pounding the back windows screaming for help. There are no other cars on the road so he can't flag anyone down for help. Does he make the choice to save the children in the car, knowing his life is in danger, or does he stand on the side hoping someone comes along, knowing his own children need him. He knows the consequences of either action.

If he attempts to save them and drowns then his children will be without him and the children he attempted to save will die. If he attempts and succeeds, then his children and those other children will be fine. But if he stands away from them and does nothing and the children die, moments later another car comes by to help, would he regret not trying?

All this was based on foreknowledge of the future. He knew who would be effected by his choices. Regret is part of that, making choices.
edit on 8/11/2012 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


If you're comparing the father driving the car to god, that is not applicable because the father is not omniscient and does not base his choice/decision on foreknowledge.

That does not fit the scenario one iota, sorry. I'm guessing you believe god is perfect? How can you compare a human being to perfection?

If you're lowering gods abilities to compare them to an imperfect human, that constitutes as blasphemy, no offense intended.
edit on 11-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


If you're comparing the father driving the car to god, that is not applicable because the father is not omniscient and does not base his choice/decision on foreknowledge.

That does not fit the scenario one iota, sorry. I'm guessing you believe god is perfect? How can you compare a human being to perfection? If you're lowering gods abilities to compare them to an imperfect human, that constitutes as blasphemy, no offense intended.


It would apply on this merit, I have stated that God teaches mankind what to do when having to make decisions and choices. Yes, the example does apply because the father knows that his decisions affect the future. Hesitation in action stems from that and it is a moment of regret.

Another example, and it will apply because of the merit of my earlier statement. A teen girl is raped and becomes pregnant. She knows a baby will be born. Does she have an abortion to later regret it, knowing though that there may have been a chance she could have taken care of it? Does she give it up for adoption even though she knows her financial situation may change in a few years? Does she keep it knowing her financial situation may not allow it. This was based in foreknowledge of an impending child. Her actions will affect the life of this child.

Taking all of these into consideration, what choice should she make? There is regret over every decision because it means she has to look at the future knowing that child might have a good life or it might have a bad life. Suppose she gives it up for adoption to a couple who are abusive. That is something she has to consider as well. Years later she may regret her action, does it mean she made a mistake? No, she never made a mistake.

God has all knowledge and knows the outcome. But made the choice anyway, knowing that for the betterment of all mankind, some decisions should be made already. That is called preemptive.

My statement was this, God teaches us that our decisions have an effect. And while we are imperfect, we can be working toward perfection using the ultimate in perfection to teach us.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by Warminindy

It would apply on this merit, I have stated that God teaches mankind what to do when having to make decisions and choices. Yes, the example does apply because the father knows that his decisions affect the future. Hesitation in action stems from that and it is a moment of regret.


So you're comparing God to a father who has children? So an imperfect human can be substituted in the place of god in those situations?

I wonder why Jesus was comparing his father god, to our fathers? Maybe because he was speaking of his actual father Joseph? Maybe the contextual meaning of what Jesus meant by father and god has been perverted to push an agenda?



Another example, and it will apply because of the merit of my earlier statement. A teen girl is raped and becomes pregnant. She knows a baby will be born. Does she have an abortion to later regret it, knowing though that there may have been a chance she could have taken care of it? Does she give it up for adoption even though she knows her financial situation may change in a few years? Does she keep it knowing her financial situation may not allow it. This was based in foreknowledge of an impending child. Her actions will affect the life of this child.


Again, not applicable because the mother had no fore knowledge of the rape happening nor foreknowledge of those foster parents being abusive.



Taking all of these into consideration, what choice should she make? There is regret over every decision because it means she has to look at the future knowing that child might have a good life or it might have a bad life. Suppose she gives it up for adoption to a couple who are abusive. That is something she has to consider as well. Years later she may regret her action, does it mean she made a mistake? No, she never made a mistake.


If the mother would have known the rape was going to happen, she wouldn't have let herself be raped especially if she knows the babies life will be hard. She would do what was best for her and the baby, she would avoided the situation. The same goes for the foster parents.



God has all knowledge and knows the outcome. But made the choice anyway, knowing that for the betterment of all mankind, some decisions should be made already. That is called preemptive.


But the mother or father do NOT have all knowledge and do NOT know the outcome beforehand on anything, so they CANNOT be compared. End of story.



My statement was this, God teaches us that our decisions have an effect. And while we are imperfect, we can be working toward perfection using the ultimate in perfection to teach us.


So we can become perfect and stand alongside god?

Who would never ever try to hurt you in any way? Your parents. It goes to wonder why Jesus said father so much. Hmm...

edit on 11-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 02:39 PM
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And how did the author know God repented of His evil??? Somehow I can't see God saying: "My bad."

I think the Bible attempts to enhance the story and the smudge of human ignorance always shines through.

take Luke 22:39-41


39 He came out and went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives; and the disciples followed him. 40 When he reached the place, he said to them, "Pray that you may not come into the time of trial." 41 Then he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, knelt down, and prayed, 42 "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done."


1. They are a stone throw away and they hear Jesus pray this and then fall asleep??
2. Jesus asks the Father to take away His crucifixion when he previously said the following to Peter:

Matthew 16:22-23


22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”


So, Jesus chastised Peter for something He himself did? Pot call kettle black?

I am sure I will be flamed for this, but I think the Bible was embellished and when it is, people question it's validity.

God's book was written by people. People make mistakes. Why do you need over 20 versions? One would do. Does the Word really need all these translations? The demons must be thrilled thinking: "Hey, the more revisions, the merrier, confusion works for me."

Honestly what do you say to a friend after you quote them 2 Maccabees 12:46

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

www.newadvent.org... (With Greek and Latin)

and they reply: "That book is not in my bible." Duh, Martin Luther God didn't like the idea of purgatory so he removed it.





edit on 8/11/2012 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



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