Christians, I would like your opinion on these verses.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Do you not understand the concept of putting yourself in someone else's shoes? That's what I was doing here, putting myself in your shoes and using your belief that god is omniscient to make my point. That in no way implies that I believe in your god.

You obviously do not understand what omniscient means because if you did you wouldn't be saying that an omniscient being could repent. Repenting means to take back what you said, since your god already knew he wasn't going to kill, he never took anything back, meaning he did not repent. That means the bible saying that your god repented is a contradiction to what you believe your god is, which is omniscient.

I can't believe I have to repeat myself so many times to get such a simple concept across your mind.

It must be nice being so brilliant amongst so many lesser beings. I must ask why someone of your stature would bother? I bet it feels good to have a laugh then go to bed feeling so superior

Had you ever given any consideration how much my God could love his children only to wipe them off the face of the Earth with a flood but leave behind Satan who was responsible for their corruption? Narrow wicked minds could certainly call that a superiority complex and an unloving God.

reply to post by zarp3333


What gives you the notion that I feel superior to anyone? If that is what you think then you are dead wrong.

I just find it frustrating that someone cannot grasp such a simple concept. You do not need to be 'brilliant' or 'superior' to grasp the concept. This is another example of a straw man, you assuming that I think I am somehow superior to anyone.

Don't assume you know who I am or what I think, especially since you are joining the conversation so late. Your condescending tone isn't helping matters either, in fact it gives the impression that you think you are superior somehow.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


What makes you think I didn't read it?

To answer your question, your link says that the ones who wrote the verse were applying human logic to god when human logic does not apply to him. I am paraphrasing here.

The question still remains: if you believe that verse is a misinterpretation made by man, then how can you believe the rest of the bible is infallible? I'm guessing you believe that one verse is fallible correct?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


But his original calling was to kill the Egyptians, he obviously changed his mind after Moses spoke to him, otherwise he wouldn't have said he would kill them in the first place.

reply to post by zarp3333


You obviously have not read through the thread and have only read the last page or two. Are you under the impression that I am Christian? If so, wrong again. You should really read through the thread before assuming something about someone you have no clue about.

If not, then sorry for the misunderstanding, but the last part still stands.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Nowhere in that single verse does it state he was referring solely to the Israelites.

You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with god repenting, it has to do with him not repenting... ever.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


It is true, those who are religious are those who are unable to see beyond 3rd dimensional thinking, thus it is easy for them be locked into some bizarre thinking that they can live with the rules installed in ALL religions.

The inability to put themselves into higher levels of thinking is rampant and has been done purposefully to them, so that they CANNOT see.

The problem is , they believe they need to identify with something that MUST be greater and smarter than them, allows them to swallow whatever nice feeling that came along to "save them" from the lost ways they had before...

As if this level of peace they have found in delusion, is somehow an acceptable level that they do not need to exceed but to "hunker down" into and find all sorts of insanity to tolerate the amazing BS throughout ...

They actually feel a sense of reverance to the captors of the mind, that they have chosen...

I feel badly sometimes for the incredible shock that happens at the point of death, when they get to see just how much of a waste and powerless life they really did live...all the while believing somehow that "Heaven" exists in the form of an eternal party zone, vacation spot , and that All this Life was, was to believe this garbage to get in !

reply to post by GrinchNoMore


I agree, though I wouldn't put it so harshly and bluntly.

To blame them is not right, they were born into the system (as was I) so they cannot be at fault for what they believe, I can relate to what they are going through because I have gone through that phase. Luckily I was able to break free from the bondage, something most cannot do, and the majority of those most won't ever break free, which makes me sad in a way.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your church leaders. I hope I can help you get a better perspective on these verse. I'm no biblical scholar like some of the posters in this forum, but I offer you what I have learned in researching the bible and talking with pastors.

I think that when God interacts with Moses here, he goes out of his way to make a point for our sake.
Here he is setting up Moses as a type of Christ. He wants to use this scenario to embedd in the history of his people the roll that the saviour, Jesus Christ will take, as our advocate, and redeemer.

In context, Moses was getting the commandments up on a mountain from God. The people were restless and Wanted to something to worship so Aaron help them create a golden calf to worship.

In verse 7 and 8 God begins his rant and tells Moses whats going on. Moses was not aware of the severity of the wild orgy that Aaron and the people were cooking up below. Moses's humbles himself and steps up to defend the Isrealites, he is thier advocate before God, he sees good in them despite what God has said. This is similar to how Jesus sees us.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1 KJV)

Later on after the judgment on the people, Moses offers himself to be "bolted out of his book." In order to restore his people.

And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin―; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. (Exodus 32:31, 32 KJV)

I hope that gives a different perspective for you.

reply to post by Observationalist


I think it's odd that no one seems to notice that Gods people are below breaking every commandment, as God is writing them. Even after all they had just witnessed.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

Nowhere in that single verse does it state he was referring solely to the Israelites.

You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with god repenting, it has to do with him not repenting... ever.

edit on 10-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

To be blunt, a verse can mean anything you want if you take it out of context, even I am guilty of the same cherry picking crime... You have to read the entire chapter along with the verse to understand what it means broseph.

From my understanding, Paul is addressing the Gentile believers about the irrevocable calls and gifts that God had for the nation of Israel and her people.
Lets take a look at Romans 11: 28 - 32

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

There were obvious civil tensions between the Gentiles and the Jews back in those times... I think the Gentiles were mad that they were treated differently and like second class citizens while the Jews were mad because they thought they were the chosen ones and salvation was only for them. HOWEVER, according to the gospel (good news,) the Jews are insensible to the role of Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah, but they are still the chosen people and loved because of the patriarchs, which I think are Moses, Abraham, etc. I think Paul addresses those tensions in previous verses in the same chapter and urging the Gentiles to love Israel and her people, because if Israel didn't commit her transgressions, history would be completely different:

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Paul is basically saying that because Israel disobeyed God, that opened up salvation without the Law of Moses through Christ for the Gentiles, but Father's calling and gifts for Israel will never cease although of all their trespasses but, I think, will spring up when all the gentile believers come to be.

Romans 11:29 has nothing to do with what you claim bro... Hope I helped clear things up a bit

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

But his original calling was to kill the Egyptians, he obviously changed his mind after Moses spoke to him, otherwise he wouldn't have said he would kill them in the first place.

No, God was going to kill the Hebrews that He redeemed from Egypt for their gross rebellion in the wilderness. That had nothing to do with the Egyptians.

reply to post by ahnggk


I think also, the fact that these bibles were written in eras when there were things happening that would now appear anathema to current humanitarian ethos, for example slavery, women being stoned etc. has influenced their content.

It is inevitable that there would be forward thinking humanitarian revolutionaries seeking liberation and equality.

That these thinkers combined aspects of various religious and traditional practices from the influences nearby, such as Ancient Greek / Roman / Egyptian as a means of appealing to the masses is very evident when such writings are properly researched.

The fact that those rewriting and adding things to these constructed religions throughout hundreds of years, adding the influence of their own agendas and again appealing to the masses with the additions of popular traditions, like pagan festivals and Christmas, as well as anything pertaining to their political agenda's and power and control of the masses is also very evident.

Seeing as religious bodies for the most part of modern history were also the governing bodies and lawmakers, seeing things in historical context when trying to analyse the meaning of biblical text is imperative.

Imagine if people believed in Scientology as writ in 2000 years (I am certain this will not happen), the evolutions it would have gone through, the influences and alterations of practices for it's own agenda etc would have to be seen in context.

ETA if there is a 'GOD', be it an omnipotent force or creator or dimension or wave structure or something else, the very fact that HUMANS have taken it upon themselves for the DETERMINING such an omnipotent force and it's constructs and meanings and sold as SCRIPTURE to other humans their INTERPRETATION of something that is greater than the determining of humans and humanly words, could well be the cause of all the consternation in humanity and planet earth. Essentially HUMANS acting as GOD is the most evil construct and detrimental to humanity and the evolution of humankind. Those claiming themselves MORE HOLY and speaking the word of 'GOD' are probably the least holy for true holiness is to see the force of 'GOD' as omnipotent and beyond the level of human interpretation.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

But his original calling was to kill the Egyptians, he obviously changed his mind after Moses spoke to him, otherwise he wouldn't have said he would kill them in the first place.

No, God was going to kill the Hebrews that He redeemed from Egypt for their gross rebellion in the wilderness. That had nothing to do with the Egyptians.

edit on 10-8-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Exactly, NotUrTypical. However, for me to point that out to the poster would mean that I am "not getting the point" about omniscience. That same poster even gave a half-definition and "put himself into our shoes" to attempt to prove us wrong.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by zarp3333

 

What gives you the notion that I feel superior to anyone? If that is what you think then you are dead wrong.

I just find it frustrating that someone cannot grasp such a simple concept. You do not need to be 'brilliant' or 'superior' to grasp the concept. This is another example of a straw man, you assuming that I think I am somehow superior to anyone.

Don't assume you know who I am or what I think, especially since you are joining the conversation so late. Your condescending tone isn't helping matters either, in fact it gives the impression that you think you are superior somehow.

edit on 10-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Pot...meet kettle.

Now getting back to the OP. The title is "Christians, I would like your opinion on these verses". We gave our opinion. We are not obligated beyond that, not even for people who pretend to take on a certain viewpoint to attempt to strawman the discussion. People won't have any respect for you because you do not honestly discuss or debate when falling to such tactics. That is called misrepresentation. I would think more seasoned and ethical debaters on ATS, even those who might take a different position on certain issues, would question your abilities. So far, the only ones agreeing with you in this discussion are those who do not intend on debating religion, but bashing it. To bash a debate is not debate, it is bully behavior.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

God does not change his mind because he is all-knowing, meaning he knew he would 'repent' long before the situation ever occurred, so he never repented because he had the same mindset on the situation since the beginning of time.

Also, if god is all-knowing, what would be the purpose of god testing Moses if he already knew what he was going to say?

Those are only a few among the long list of contradictions contained within the bible.

edit on 9-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Not everything God did/does was/is purely for the benefit of the person who was being tested.

It was also a lesson to EVERYONE who was witnessing what was happening or what Moses witnessed (taught) to others afterwards regarding what took place.

removed double post at members request

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

Nowhere in that single verse does it state he was referring solely to the Israelites.

You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with god repenting, it has to do with him not repenting... ever.

edit on 10-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

When I posted the definition of repentance you somehow missed it, so I will post it again.
Definition of Repentance

re·pent·ance    [ri-pen-tns, -pen-tuhns] noun 1. deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like. 2. regret for any past action.

Is there anything in the definition that states God acted on it rather than regretted? Could it be possible that God merely regretted it, but then regretted His emotions, because He has omniscience over all that He is, including His emotions and regret?

Are you applying the wrong definition of repentance? Are you applying the concept that one repents by changing their minds and doing a different action? People change actions all the time without regret for anything, and some regret without changing actions.

The definition of repentance could simply mean God felt remorse. That does not mean God would have to change His mind or apologize. For all of those reading your comments to star on them only because you are taking a stand against a system that you never really understood or that you ever embraced, I have posted definitions of words from a legitimate accepted source that is not from the Bible, but secular. They have not noticed that you never addressed the definitions from the links provided.

Here on ATS we are strongly encouraged to provide links in conjunction to our own opinions and we are to present those links from legitimate sources. I ex-texted your own posts to show you what you have said, perhaps you are not a legitimate source to quote.

Now, using proper sources, can you provide us with links that prove your opinions. I would be interested in those. We, on the other hand, were asked to provide our opinions on the verses provided. We did that. Now what more obligation is there for us?

Double post, mods please remove the post above this one.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

You still refuse to understand what I am saying. You cannot repent if you know you are going to 'repent' beforehand, that is not repenting because god knew what decision would be made infinitely before it was made. It is not repenting when you never truly meant to do what you said you'd do before 'repenting'. That implies that god NEVER planned on killing the Egyptians, which means he never repented to begin with.

I'm not sure I can make it any clearer than that. I even repeated what I said several times over to make it as clear as possible.

Alright, let's just say that God didn't really "repent".

We hear the term, "I brought you into this world and I have the power to take you out." That doesn't mean that everyone who says it means it, but it also doesn't mean that they're not going to use it as a threat either.

I'm sure God was using it as a reminder of what He could do, if He chose to.

Originally posted by GrinchNoMore
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

It is true, those who are religious are those who are unable to see beyond 3rd dimensional thinking,

This guy can :
Chuck Missler

Read some of his articles on science.Science and Religion

Not all of us are like what you propose. Some of us realize there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are contained in your philosophy. (William Shakespeare, Hamlet Scene V)