Gay Marriage and Raising Children: The Elephant in the Room

reply to post by TheRedneck


It's a service-to-self society. It's easier to tame a population that cares more for itself individually than for others. Greedy people are easy to trick.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
reply to post by FailedProphet

 

I will also mention another case, where I personally knew the people. All-female couple, and the daughter of one of them, that told me, when she was older, that she never felt she had a choice to be other than they were, because of how she was raised. She was very unhappy about it, but didn't know what to do.

Let's talk about my case. Raised in a heterosexual household and I also felt like I had no choice to be anythig other than heterosexual. I was also very unhappy about it and didn't know what to do. And other gays when they were younger were very unhappy about it and don't know what to do because their parents were straight also.

Do you see where I am going with this? Let's discuss the effect of gay kids being raised by straight parents. I'm certain that topic won't take off. Besides, the key is to have loving and caring parents that will let you be who you are. I have a friend that was raised by gay parents and she is happy and well-adjusted and has a successful relationship with her male fiance. A child should know that they are loved and they are encouraged to be themselves.

I would like to see more study on the impact of same sex marriages on adopted children of such couples. I personally (as posted elsewhere) think that the traditional family unit of a man and a woman should be the societal standard for which adoption is based. It is obvious that the Gay and Lesbian community have an agenda to promote (including required reading by school children of gay families and lifestyle choices, etc). I think that gays have a right to their lifestyle choice and I agree that they are no more likely to molest a same sex child than a hetero parent is to molest an opposite sex child and I acknowledge that most of those wanting to adopt may have good parenting skills, etc. It is the direct exposure of the "non-traditional" lifestyle to children that I am concerned about. Where does one draw the line then (assuming one has the right to a "lifestyle" choice)? Satan worship (assuming not practicing "child sacrifice") and bestiality (if legal)?

reply to post by TheRedneck


You know, you are one of my favorite people to discuss any issue with my friend

d that leads to the issue of surrogate parents. Few if any manage to live through childhood without some form of outside support, whether it be grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. I think this is actually an important thing to a child, as there are some things one simply does not wish to discuss with their parents. I do not believe "it takes a village to raise a child", but I do believe it takes someone from outside the family to reinforce the morals taught inside the family.

I firmly belive in this as well. The "village" does need to raise the child to teach it things that parents often overlook.

And on a personal note: never worry about what others think. It is an exercise in self-destructive futility.

Mostly I would agree and in my children's lives I've asserted the same advice to them when dealing with bigots and non sensical folk. However now that I know that one person can cause harm to my family by imposing the government in it, I must admit I will be more careful.

Even though we did nothing wrong and I should not have to, it is what it is.

I will say this: if being on ATS has taught me anything about this issue it is that the differences between gay and straight are minor, especially compared to the difference between socially responsible and socially irresponsible. You and I would both benefit greatly socially if we could get rid of the flamboyant examples of perversion found in most Gay Pride parades and the idiotic trailer trash that can't form a coherent thought yet get described as "redneck"... both examples of MSM propaganda.

I long for the day when the gay community will cease to exist and they can stop labelling themselves as different.

My whole problem with this community is that they are very seperatist, not inclusionary, yet they wish others to accept them into their community. I understand that repression and discrimination will often lead a community inward and make themselves very exclusionary, but it's not an excuse.

Same goes for those who are against gay in general, there's no proper logical argument for it, only emotional ones, that really have no basis.

As I've said however, the gay vs straight fight is something required by those who wish to enslave us. They need to have as many inter-citizen disputes as possible to keep our eyes off the real prize and plans they have put forth.

~Tenth

Originally posted by pajoly
I am sorry, but threads like this disgust me because when you whittle it down, you are trying to launch a debate that ultimately translates into whether one group should be deprived of children simply because you are ignorant, uninformed and believe your lifestyle is morally superior to that of gays.

In family law courts, it is a settled principle of law that children's rights are paramount, not those of the mother and father.

Yet, you appear to feel that principle of putting children's rights first doesn't apply if the prospective parents are gay.

It is your logic which is disgusting in its self centered pursuit of gay rights.

Rather than considering whether bringing kids up in a gay environment has adverse effects on the children, you wish to frame the debate entirely in terms of gay 'rights' and attack any consideration of children's rights as ignorant and uniformed.

Your disregard for the rights and welfare of children is disgusting.

Luckily the "flamboyant trash" at Pride Parades is going nowhere, because all kinds of people fought for gay rights, from Stone Wall queens to people in suits.

There is always a place for irony and humor.

As a gay person I also celebrate these people at the San Diego LGTB Gay Pride Parade in 2012, who for the first time marched in a gay pride event in uniforms:

Originally posted by pajoly
OP, your parents (your heterosexual parents) failed you. They raise you as the most dangerous of person -- a soft bigot with a moral superiority complex inherent in an evangelical.

If you had gay parents, you'd have turned out more kind.

In a single post you attack the OP's parents, launch an ad hominem attack against the OP and further assert the superiority of gay parents over heterosexual parents.

It is you, not the OP that clearly reveals them-self as an opinionated bigot.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

What can I reply to that post? Nothing except: absolutely correct.


reply to post by tothetenthpower

You know, you are one of my favorite people to discuss any issue with my friend

That is either a great compliment or an admission of masochistic tendencies.

I'll assume compliment.

Even though we did nothing wrong and I should not have to, it is what it is.

It is advice that is easy to give and hard to take. Humans are a social species, and we tend to look for peer approval in our everyday lives. Luckily, I have been blessed with a deficiency in that area of life. When one cares not what others think, none at all, one finds true freedom.

I long for the day when the gay community will cease to exist and they can stop labelling themselves as different.

My whole problem with this community is that they are very seperatist, not inclusionary, yet they wish others to accept them into their community. I understand that repression and discrimination will often lead a community inward and make themselves very exclusionary, but it's not an excuse.

In every progressive movement there is an initial phase when people have to present themselves as exceptional, as different, as unique in order to garner attention. But beyond that phase is one where just the opposite is true: the impression of gaudiness or uniqueness can alienate others and actually cause irreparable harm in the public opinion of the group. The biggest obstacle to gay rights issues right now is not the public opinion as much as it is the gay "community" swaying that opinion in the wrong direction. Attention has been garnered; the public is well aware of the existence of gay people. Now what is needed is to show how minor the differences are and how vast the similarities are.

The early responses to this thread are a great example: while the OP, you, and I (as well as a few others) have taken a factual reasoned approach to the subject matter, some have either dismissed any concern out of hand (which shows them to be selfish and uncaring off others) or demanded that any results have to be negative (which indicates their bigotry and lack of critical thinking). That does not improve their position; it weakens it.

Same goes for those who are against gay in general, there's no proper logical argument for it, only emotional ones, that really have no basis.

They will, in time, fade into obscurity, my friend. In the long run they do not matter, and that little snippet of advice I gave earlier will only speed their descent into oblivion. Emotion only works when one cares what others think. Without that leverage, it shows itself for what it really is: small-minded existence with no real ambition in life to learn, grow, and become greater than one already is.

Think not of the issues surrounding gays vs. straights as a fight; a fight is a contest where each side wishes to harm the other. Think instead of it as a goal, where all are enhanced by learning from each other.

TheRedneck

Well thank goodness we live in free countries these days, even when gay rights and freedom did not come easily, but they were worth the fight against prejudice.
We have the right today to say we are being misrepresented when we see blatantly unsubstantiated claims.
Nobody can tell us to be quiet and crawl about in fear anymore.
We have a right to be here on this planet, just like any body else.

We have a lot to be grateful for in "free" countries - from the very right to be parents, to the right to continue to celebrate ourselves in age-old carnival fashion.

We have many friends, and let those who don't like us carry on being the stereotypes that they are.
They might not realize it, but they are very stereotypical too, and they can hardly pronounce judgements on gay people.

We are not going to oblivion.
We never have and never will as gay and lesbian citizens.

We are going full-steam ahead to equality.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


On the previous page I linked to three studies that show children raised by same-sex parents are no different than children raised by different-sex parents. In fact it seems they are more well adjusted than children raised by single parents. What matters most is not the sex of your parents but the level of support that you receive from them.

Why is One Man - One Woman always held up as the norm.

Seems to me - - through out history - - that is not really the norm.

I personally do not feel One Man - One Woman - - - is the healthiest environment for child development.

I personally feel - - multiple women and one man - - - with the women in charge - - - would be the healthiest environment for child development.

What is different about having gay parents as oppose to having straight parents? I see none whatsoever. I have a very good friend who is a lesbian and she always looks after her niece. She is as motherly as any other mum and loves the kid as if it is her own child. We really do need to get over this fear factor that people have when it comes to same-sex couples being parents. If I could have swapped my childhood and have been brought up with gay or lesbian parents I would.

Originally posted by ProfessorT
What is different about having gay parents as oppose to having straight parents? I see none whatsoever. I have a very good friend who is a lesbian and she always looks after her niece. She is as motherly as any other mum and loves the kid as if it is her own child. We really do need to get over this fear factor that people have when it comes to same-sex couples being parents. If I could have swapped my childhood and have been brought up with gay or lesbian parents I would.

Right. It doesn't matter where/who the Love and Nurturing comes from. The child naturally responds to it.

I was raised by a mom and gramma. The only issue was what came from outsiders.

First humans have the capacity to adopt the offspring of other humans, it is as natural to us as breathing and isn't the case with many other species. It is part of our long term survival. So if we know this where is the issue? Would it be an issue if two gay adults and and a breeding pair of hetro children ended up washed ashore on an isolated island? Would you not expect the adults to do their best to raise those children? Or do you think they should say we are gay we might damage them and leave them to die?

It is all the same. As a kid we had a family with gay parents that lived net door to us. Their kids weren't any different than the rest of us, the daughter had crush on my brother and the boys were always running around acting like boys. All of them grew up to be straight and have the same relationship issues everyone else has.

reply to post by Annee

US Census reports 2,157,000 marriages in 2008 source

USA Today reports 131,729 gay marriages in 2011 (by US Census reports) source

In this case, 2,157,000 is the 'norm', while 131,729 is not. Personal opinions notwithstanding.

Now can we get back to a factual discussion?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Annee

US Census reports 2,157,000 marriages in 2008 source

USA Today reports 131,729 gay marriages in 2011 (by US Census reports) source

In this case, 2,157,000 is the 'norm', while 131,729 is not. Personal opinions notwithstanding.

Now can we get back to a factual discussion?

TheRedneck

If you think this: Gay Marriage and Raising Children: The Elephant in the Room

Is only about factual data.

You know plenty of people can attest to the success of single fathers and single mothers too!

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Yup, I am a single dad and it makes no difference to my kids whether I'm gay straight or a blancmange, but you want to know what grinds my gears ?

Two gay people can adopt or foster before I can single mums can knock out another kid as quick as the price of Barcadi goes up, If I wouold like to raise another child on my own, well of course I must be queer and if not then I must be some sort of perv.

To be honest I'm sick to the teeth of the rasing children subject, simply because it is so sodding complex and so full of BS. You know I once had a senior social worker tell me how some of the best mothers on her books happened to be drug addicts !! Indeed, this fine lady died not long after from alcholism followed closely by her son and then her daughter from the same malady.

Perhaps I should have posted this in Rant lol but this subject really winds me up, as a victim of the divorce courts and subsequent battle to remain the father of my children I for one have been waiting patiently for same sex marriage and hopefully (in the UK at least) to see same sex couples marrying in the anglican churches.

I am sorry to say this but more than anything Iong to see the first same sex divorces and the realization by all the bastards making money out of the misery of children and dads that "hey we screwed up somewhere there's mo Mum to automatically hand the kids and the cash to".


I really am able to do a much better job of presenting a case for "any parent will do as long as he/she can put the needs of the child in their care first" but keep losing my rag as soon as I even think what the bastards did to me and my kids.

I personally feel - - multiple women and one man - - - with the women in charge - - - would be the healthiest environment for child development.

reply to post by Annee


Well that would certainly be very healthy for me, not sure about the "in charge bit" but the rest seems bloody marvellous. Exactly how many ironing boards would we require and when can you start ?

reply to post by Sinny


Yeah, I like gays as well - they are fun people in general. In fact, the lead singer in my band is gay, and I roomed with him in an apartment for a while in college. At the time, I wasn't very good socially, but he was around 30 and really helped me out a lot in that sense. I feel like because of him, I can relate to women as equals in a way that I never could before. He was really like a father to me, in a sense. My real parents are kind of quiet and traditional.

So my immediate sense is that it is probably healthier for a child to be raised in a same-sex household than it is to be raised by a single mother.

However, I really like the OP's thread and his point that this should be discussed. The OP did a very good job deflecting a lot of irrelevant attacks that usually occur on topics like this.

Also, he pointed out evidence that children raised by single mothers turn out worse off in general than those raised by two parents. This is not only relevant - because it shows how messing with the nuclear family could have unexpected consequences - but it is ALSO an issue that should be discussed, in my opinion.

Not only that, but divorces - I have TONS of friends whose parents divorced and they are ALL messed up and have confidence issues.

Being raised by a mother and grandmother sounds interesting, doesn't sound bad imo.

reply to post by ChristianJihad


Yeah, I was just thinking of adopting a kid as a single dad in the future, but it feels like I would get hated on for it and might not even be able to. How dumb.

Also, what is up with the mother ALWAYS getting custody in divorce cases? Isn't this sexist? Just my opinion.