Theosophy and Christianity

reply to post by autowrench


Oh, and as a final thought, I am not in "servitude" to anyone. Lucifer is my FRIEND and lover. Yes, we argue from time to time, like any friends or lovers do, but I would only "serve" him in as much as I would any friend who asked me to do a favor for him or her like helping them move out of their home or fix and repair things and whatnot. And even though I am at times suspicious of him, he seems to me the closest thing to an actual benevolent entity that might be in operation against the malevolent forces keeping humanity in darkness. This does not mean that his actions always reflect on him as being benevolent, and some of the things he does can appear malevolent, but I have determined that his heart and intentions are in the right place, so I stay with him in as much as I can regardless as to whether what he is doing looks questionable.

YWEH on the other hand DOES NOT want relationships on this level. He wants servants and slaves. Not friends and lovers. And very much so does not want someone to ever become his equal...

Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Videos be damned, if we, as a species, couldn't properly calculate longitude until John Harrison crafted the chronometer then how is it even remotely possible we could know the EXACT moment of the crucifixion?

Longitude

I will chose reason... and proven history... over theological astronomers on YouTube anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

Longitude is location. When I mentioned 33.33 X 33.33, this was in reference to Mt. Hermon where Enoch says that the fallen beings came down (Genesis 6). The Crucifixion location is known as well. The time is known from many clues and accounts, including that of Josephus. Revelation 12 tells us the signs in the sky and the orientation of the constellations so we pinpoint the exact red moon that is mentioned in scripture that accompanies the event. If you watch the video below, you can see how star software allows us to rewind the night sky and see the exact moment of the event that happened on April 3, 33 AD at 3:00 pm. The eclipse was not seen as it was under the horizon, but the blood red moon would have risen in sight approximately 30 minutes after. They may very well have been taking Him off the cross on 3-3-33 at 3:33. That's the coordinates of Mt. Hermon where the fallen Angels came down. Accident? Coincidence? The most well known episode in human history was what the accounts say it was. It is verified. The evidence is overwhelming.

Keep bias against your misconceptions of God out of the picture and reason will be clear enough to see that Christ died on a cross and was raised on the third day. The evidence speaks for itself.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Longitude is location. When I mentioned 33.33 X 33.33, this was in reference to Mt. Hermon...

Mount Hermon is at 33.24.58 N 35.51.27.E. Plugging 33.33.00 N 33.33.00 E puts you off the coast of Israel in the Mediterranean Sea. Why do you insist on constantly inventing facts to suit your ridiculous agenda?

That's the coordinates of Mt. Hermon where the fallen Angels came down. Accident? Coincidence?

Nope, just bulls**t.

reply to post by autowrench


I also want to clarify how I do not so much as equate the concepts of good and evil with actual forces such as positive and negative energies, and not necessarily in place because of warring entities by comparing it to the following observation.

While many people can come up with some very colorful analogies as to why they think the alleged forces of good and evil are necessary to exist simultaneously to actually enhance life, and that the lack of one or the other would detract from the overall quality in life, I find it makes about as much sense as claiming that the divisions present in humanity, from differing countries to differing religions and views on what is the absolute Truth actually is necessary for humanity's existence or even enhances our experiences. Divisions in nations leads to war, at times, over resources such as oil, wood, water, and land, or differences in relations and opinions. Divisions in religion ends up causing people killing for their deities or spreading malcontent against other members of their species who do not agree, and while we can overcome such things and actually celebrate our differences, in doing so we have come to recognize the nature of our diversity and no longer view it as a causation of division. The concepts of good and evil are much like that. A difference in opinion is not evil in my opinion. A difference in philosophy or belief is not evil, also. But true malevolence does not recognize itself and needs the presence of benevolence in order for it to change and come to a state of grace.

I also find your statement that all of YWEH's species are incapable of evolving or changing a bit speciesist, because the actions of YWEH do not necessarily speak for his entire species. YWEH is like he is because he is the dominant member of his species at the time, and believes that nothing is higher than him, nor could it ever. In contrast, Lucifer is a member of his species that has adopted human-like qualities of being able to grow and change, and is more relatable to the human psyche than haughty beings like YWEH, who either refuse to change, or cannot change. I find there are few entities that really are like YWEH, and they try to change and learn, whereas YWEH thinks he is always right and always will be and that he is so powerful that he can alter even the Truth, in which all beings are bound to, in order to suit his needs. He is the type who would destroy the entire universe to recreate it in his image, if only to make it appear he has altered the very essence of the Truth, when he actually has not. That is the nature of YWEH, and I have not encountered entities that are as extreme in his ways and mindset as he is, in all reality.

reply to post by AsherahoftheSea


The closest that comes is karma, and both good and bad karma are equally necessary. Just as we need shadow to define the flame, we need poor experiences to support the positive. How can we appreciate what we have, if we don't have anything to compare it to?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Longitude is location. When I mentioned 33.33 X 33.33, this was in reference to Mt. Hermon...

Mount Hermon is at 33.24.58 N 35.51.27.E. Plugging 33.33.00 N 33.33.00 E puts you off the coast of Israel in the Mediterranean Sea. Why do you insist on constantly inventing facts to suit your ridiculous agenda?

That's the coordinates of Mt. Hermon where the fallen Angels came down. Accident? Coincidence?

Nope, just bulls**t.

edit on 11-8-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer

Did you account for the shift increase of 0.0014 arcseconds per year? The geodetics would have been off from where it is today. That's a 5000 years difference. It would be interesting to see where the original information came from. This is a commonly held location for Mt. Hermon so I'll need to look into it further. I will do a thread on it when I can get the information compiled. I read it as well in Apollyon Rising and also in a book from the Theosophic Society. I'll find the reference by tomorrow for you.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


It may be true, but I personally do not adopt the nature of needing a conflicting experience to appreciate the presence or experience in something positive. I do not need a child to suffer molestation to love it or think it is a cute or beautiful soul, for one. I do not need my cat to get run over by a car and suffer and die in my arms to appreciate its presence in my life, and it is in fact the traumatic memory of it dying like that which would taint the pleasant memories of its presence in my life, and not enhance it, in my opinion. You don't need to suffer from trauma and be forced into having disorders like PTSD to appreciate life, and it is in fact things like this that detract from life and do not enhance it at all...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I also do not equate positive and negative karma with good or evil. It's much the same as equating it with positive and negative energies. It simply boils down to the concepts of benevolence and malevolence and the differences I see if the universe was created (this is one reason I do not know if there really is an intelligent force behind the universe because I question whether it was created or if it just emerged due to its nature) or more specifically if it were created by a benevolent force, like many people attest. My observations seem to support that it either emerged naturally or was created by something not omnibenevolent, and it was either a flawed being who created it, or a malevolent to any degree of malevolence, from partial to total. I know that the actions and mindset of YWEH do not speak to me as him being a benevolent being. So I have questions about what is really going on behind the scenes...

reply to post by AsherahoftheSea

It was you who first said that good and evil were necessary for each other to exist, and I was just simply going off the terminology you used, and that most people use, when saying such things.

Yes, I did say that, and believe it or not, I first leaned it through the study of Theosophy. We live in a Balanced Environment, we humans, and let's face it, there is no conceivable way we can all be good. There will always be evil in this world, simply because man does evil things, mostly to each other. It is sad, but true. A change on the genetic level is needed before any resemblance of all good could be realized.

Here is Wisdom. One cannot truly be Good, without having first the Knowledge of Evil.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Cult of Reason? Who would that be?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

You'd think they'd put more thought into things knowing we can research it. Particularly since lat-long is easily found.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Mount Hermon is where the 'fallen angels' were said to have descended to Earth, however interestingly enough if you trace the exact geographical opposite location; you get Roswell, New Mexico.

reply to post by Dreine


I couldn't agree more. Searching for truth and using your own discernment should never be considered evil. With that being said, HAS religion lost its focus? I dont know, why don't you ask it... Oh yeah, you can't. It's not a living, breathing, thinking, decision-making thing. It cannot "lose" its focus...

Now if you want to talk about the people who claim to follow and adhere to these religions, then you've got a conversation that makes sense, because it doesn't include the requirement of giving living qualities to an inanimate idea. It's the people who breath life into their faith, by their actions.

And yes, the people have lost focus. By being misled, confused, lied to, and persecuted, by kings, popes, priests... People in POWER. It requires power to be able to control and persecute a people. It's been going on so long now that there are only small pockets, even individuals by themselves, who are the truth, the love, the kindness and service to others that was the original message of Jesus and surely others. Even the Bible contains mistranslations, omissions, twistings of the truth, attempts to cover up and hide the truth, and outright lies... All done by humans, people!

The only thing you can trust now is your heart to help you...not "know", but FEEL the truth in any words found anywhere.

One of the recent popes even admitted that he believes an enthroning ceremony was held for Satan inside the Vatican by high members of the church. He said that "the smoke of Satan" had entered the sanctuary or something like that. He was referring to the smoke from incense used in various ceremonies and rituals. So, they gave the popes throne to satan, or Lucifer, for you high brow types.

This should come as no surprise as the bible, which does actually still contain much truth (just look around you and see with your heart and read with your heart and you can see what is true), actually warned that the church would fall into corruption and that most who proclaim to be followers will have strayed from the path. Look at all the hatred toward others and all the condemnations you hear in church, and have heard for a long time. As if the preacher himself can do the job of deciding for himself who goes to heaven or hell! Bringing more hate and negative energy into the world instead of bringing love and kindness for all!

Any logical person will look at religion and be disgusted with the evil and misery it has brought upon mankind. But a truly wise and awakened person will look and see that it has been the People, namely the People In Charge who have manipulated and twisted it for their own gain. Many have been fooled. But the ones who have been fooled the most are those who think that religion just did all this by itself, and there was no influence from well, influential people who have guided, herded rather, the people away from the true path and to a pathway that would better benefit themselves. After all, there's no profit in having everybody treat everybody with kindness and respect. No, there are this out there who believe they should receive MORE than their fair share of kindness and respect, and they may believe certain others deserve less than their for share.

It wasn't too hard to fool the people into this new pathway by having the religious leaders put the fear of going to Hell in their hearts and minds if they were to stray even a tiny bit from the plans of the rulers, and those who claim to be in personal and exclusive contact with "God". Not to mention the threat of torture, excommunication, taking of property, etc, that existed not too long ago. And still does in some places. In some religions. I don't think Jesus ever wanted that...

I'm open to all faiths that teach compassion. I was just born into a Christian family, but I believe that most any religion, practiced properly, can lead to goodness, and happiness.

Not too many people practice Christianity properly today... I'm sure the same could be said for other large religions. But, here in the US and in other parts of the world, it is the self proclaimed Christians who seem to be the loudest ones bringing the most negative attention to themselves. Maybe its party the media, too, I don't know... But there are definitely a lot of people, Christian or not, religious or not, who have forgotten the way of kindness, patience, tolerance, and most important, love for all humans.

Luckily there are some out there who still have love in their hearts. Some who will always defend those who are attacked without provocation. Those who stand up against oppression by force, brought on by those who hold power, yet do not use it for the benefit of all, but for their own gain or the profit of those who hold power over them. It takes courage to do the right thing a lot of the time.

reply to post by autowrench

Originally posted by autowrench
Here is Wisdom. One cannot truly be Good, without having first the Knowledge of Evil.

I personally don't buy into that myself, actually, in studying the difference in a benevolent and malevolent mindset. I don't think that firsthand knowledge and experience with evil is necessary to become benevolent, in my opinion, and one can exist in a benevolent universe and still recognize malevolence when it surfaces without having actually experienced it. This is because the truly benevolent wish to get ignorance as far away from them, and strive to learn as much as they can about their universe and surroundings, not in wishing to dominate it or control it, but to better protect and serve it. In such a universe that was founded by sheer benevolence, a sudden emergence of a malevolent act, unless adequately and tactfully disguised under a mask of benevolence up to a point where it was too late to correct, would be known because it brought things out of balance and disrupted the universe and caused undue damage.

This does not mean I do not recognize the primitive and carnal ways present in nature all around me, and that it seems we have arisen from an endless mess of violence and cruelty. It's more likely that we succumb to the behaviors we do because of the underlying Primal Mind, and not because we really want to. It's not that I don't believe that evil can come to grow into a benevolent creature, but that the presence of some sort of good influence or catalyst is necessary to move the hearts of the malevolent and make them think about becoming better creatures through their examples. On its own, it just remains lost to its own shortsidedness and malevolent ways, and remains that way because such a state is normal to it and it knows not what could be better...

A being like YWEH though, despite watching the actions of benevolent beings and having their grace extended upon him, has demonstrated that there are the types of malevolent mindsets unswayed by things like love and kindness and friendship and companionship, and that there are those who remain malevolent because of the benefits they receive in manipulating, deceiving, and ruling over other beings...

I suppose you might say that being able to analyze such things arise from "memories" of how the universe was before this fractured and wartorn reality was made from its remains...

reply to post by AsherahoftheSea

Oh, and as a final thought, I am not in "servitude" to anyone. Lucifer is my FRIEND and lover.

I am sorry. I mistook your meanings in your words. I just have a problem with those who "serve" an unknown and Lord, or Master, as some call it.
I think like that too. I think of Deity as Father and Mother, or, in simpler terms, Mom and Dad.

Originally posted by AsherahoftheSea
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

It may be true, but I personally do not adopt the nature of needing a conflicting experience to appreciate the presence or experience in something positive. I do not need a child to suffer molestation to love it or think it is a cute or beautiful soul, for one. I do not need my cat to get run over by a car and suffer and die in my arms to appreciate its presence in my life, and it is in fact the traumatic memory of it dying like that which would taint the pleasant memories of its presence in my life, and not enhance it, in my opinion. You don't need to suffer from trauma and be forced into having disorders like PTSD to appreciate life, and it is in fact things like this that detract from life and do not enhance it at all...

This is the misunderstood quantity of love. Love must suffer to be true. Reward only comes from suffering. If you examine the mathematics behind this, you will see it's true and you can have a proof with simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

The best way to understanding this concept mathematically is to see how quantum computing works. I just got back form a theater in Springfield, MO, where my wife and I watched Men in Black III. One of the heroes (no spoilers) in the movie was a being that was able to see the 5th dimensional probability space. (Side note: I have been blasted on ATS for describing such a concept). Essentially, we are 4th dimensional beings seeing one slice of the dimension above the third. The third can see all of the second, yet the second can only see a slice of us as we pass through. To visualize the 5th, we simply know that the fourth is one slice (Moment of now) passing from the fifth. As observers with consciousness in the third, we have the ability to take indeterminate probability from the fifth and bring it into the fourth to make it determined. When someone says, "I am bound and determined," they are really saying, I have bound this outcome from the fifth dimension and determined that this outcome will happen. Their subconscious then makes it happen as it computes the variables and circumstances for that event to occur. This is where destiny enters.

We are only able to bind the outcome as long as all the variables are known. Since others have the same free will we do, we are never quite sure if what we calculate will happen. There are simply too many other variable observers determining their own destinies. Within the probability space in the 5th dimension, it is constantly overlapping and changing. God is also one of the others in that space and above it. He already knows our destiny from Alpha to Omega. The Beginning and End of the 4th dimension is a forest that is already set. The trees cannot be moved and some obstacles and occurrences are determined.

For instance, the sun will shine tomorrow. I have no say in it, but probability already tells me that it will happen based on repeated patterns. It might not happen, but it probably will. I can't say it will, even though I hope it does. The same for your cat dying and a child suffering. We are all affected by choice, chance and the actions of others. Chance is simply the providence (His Choice) of God. Providence is the ability to see past what we are blinded to from the fifth dimensional space. We can gripe and complain as children without realizing that all suffering leads to reward. God has a plan that is for our ultimate good and not evil. Faith is trust that God can.

reply to post by autowrench


Most people don't understand that if the current conception of God existed it would be a walking contradiction....You can't demand worship, and claim to be loving and merciful at the same time. People who love one another don't enslave each other.

Basically saying, if God really existed and was pure love, he would require nor want/request, worship.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by autowrench

 

Most people don't understand that if the current conception of God existed it would be a walking contradiction....You can't demand worship, and claim to be loving and merciful at the same time. People who love one another don't enslave each other.

Basically saying, if God really existed and was pure love, he would require nor want/request, worship.

No contradiction at all. See my last post.

God expresses the will to give and receive only. If he is seen taking at all, this is expressed in a temporal choice to then give again. You must be born again is the hallmark of this process. Baptism is our immersion into the world of opposites where choice can be made. For this to happen, God had only one choice in the beginning that could have been made. The Father allows what he loves to be released. If it returns, it is love. For free will to exist and His will to be opened to another observer, the will must include the possibility of evil (Separation from good).

God made the right choice and the only choice for any of us to repeat. God exerted the will to give, thereby allowing us to receive free will. The determined universe then becomes the indeterminate space of probable outcomes. All are given a choice, including God. Providence is his choice. Chance is destiny from providence. Our choices are regulated by law, thereby disallowing us to override the mechanism of choice that harms another. Thieves (Those who take) are rectified in the self-correcting system of law. Karma (Sin and death) answers our actions into the next future after judgment. When we make a choice, we judge the outcomes and adapt our actions to change the states of matter around us. Guess what? God does too, only his choices for us are regulated by our destiny created in the mechanism of the universe. If the choice of one person alters the destiny of someone else, God corrects this over the next life. Jesus said, "you must be born again." Why Jesus for the answer to the problem of sin and death?

We determine a destiny that is trapped by our own actions affecting others. To rectify this, we must learn the will to receive and give. Once we do, we are digging our way out. This is addition. It can never be enough to undo our doing. Instead, God, once again, comes down and gives for our good. Our sin (Negative) is multiplied by the Cross (Negative suffering from God) to pay our debt. Two negatives multiplied make a positive. This is the way debt is walked back to a zero sum. Since God cannot take, he can only rectify the error Himself.

Why then must we choose? Unless we repeat the process he set in motion, the death of Christ is not applied. Not believing in the obvious then completely nullifies the possibility. Why? We have selected a destiny pattern that is against the process of giving. We are THIEVES.

God does not allow the will to take only.

Most clever of all on God's part: If you don't believe that the outcome is bound for your by God, it cannot happen. You are the one collapsing the wave. If you don't determine this outcome, it will not be collapsed for you. You disallow the possibility. THIS IS THE LAW. Disbelief says it can't happen. Destiny will allow your choice. Faith says it can happen. Your destiny is in your own hands. Indeterminate can be determined for any of us, but only if you give and receive by will. It's your choice.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by autowrench

 

Most people don't understand that if the current conception of God existed it would be a walking contradiction....You can't demand worship, and claim to be loving and merciful at the same time. People who love one another don't enslave each other.

Basically saying, if God really existed and was pure love, he would require nor want/request, worship.

In case you missed it, read that last paragraph again in my last post. I can determine your thoughts in the 5th dimension by guessing that you will say, "Great. I just believe and I am in Heaven when I die. I can just live how I want and believe anything and it will happen?" No. Not gonna happen (Bush Voice). Remember, God has a choice. He determined the outcome already. Heaven or Hell. One way there. Christ and Christ alone. He determined this by collapsing this wave into destiny. You either believe it or you don't. The hope within you is determined by your actions. You create the destiny that leads you there or not. Christ takes you the last mile as determined by God. That determination is in the Bible. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling as the Bible says.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by autowrench

 

Most people don't understand that if the current conception of God existed it would be a walking contradiction....You can't demand worship, and claim to be loving and merciful at the same time. People who love one another don't enslave each other.

Basically saying, if God really existed and was pure love, he would require nor want/request, worship.

My last two posts are a long version. Here is the short. God's choice was to give so we could receive. When we see this pattern in nature, as reflecting Him, we then give and what is given returns to others. God is one of the others. This is where free will demands that evil is a possibility. For God to give us anything, we must be able to choose a path ourselves. Many will choose the will to take only in selfishness. Free will demands that any outcome is possible, but God also disallows our choices by law. The law demands that a debt must be transferred from one to the other. Curse me and God blesses me. ATS has provided many such blessings for me. I am sure that I have transferred a few myself the other way.

At death (Caused by debt), we are weighed in the balance and sent back to be born again. If we can somehow live perfectly and mirror God, we can then gain union with the supreme good that God is. His kingdom is only the will to receive and give. If we are a thief, back we go. He is long-suffering. This is where Jesus steps in and takes our debt by request. It's a gift, but the indeterminate cannot become determinate apart form a changed heart. The change is one of will. We must match God's will to give. Once we do, we start seeing others receiving and love is developed. The law is fulfilled in love, but our love can never satisfy God. We must be blameless. We cannot do this. Only Christ answers this requirement. To apply Christ to your soul, we must take His name. Our hearts must be changed by Him. We become part of His Body. The blood is applied and we are changed. Not here, but where our archetype is in heaven. We exist in the image of God INSIDE His image of the universe. The real you is in Heaven. Your actions here determine your soul there.

How can you make it determined? Collapsing wave function. You must be in the correct polarity with Christ. Faith believes within Christ and you change the destiny to salvation. You determine the outcome and change your own destiny. Christ is the wave you ride. No other wave will get you there.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I don't believe in mainstream, modern-day conceptions of heaven and hell. Nor do I believe in the mainstream, modern-day conception of Yeshua's connection to 'God'. I stated before, I consider him an Ascended Master, from whom knowledge and understanding can be gained. I do not accept him as a superior being, because some men I don't even know, for motives that I do know, said so.