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There Is No Choice

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posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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To all of the Christians of ATS, I have just realized a highly conspicuous conflict of interests, born of and upheld by your faith, that would have any psychologist shaking their head in amusement. Let's see what counter-arguments you can cook up for this one:

There is no reason for an omniscient being to create a place like hell, except that not only did he know exactly who would take each seat as he made it, but he went ahead and designed us that way anyway, knowing exactly what we would choose and which fate we would face. And not a single adjustment was made that day, either to spare us, to fix us, to perfect us...nothing.

So really, we were MEANT to go to hell. That's what logic tells me. Our destiny, wherever we end up, heaven or hell, is fulfilled. So why choose? Because if our path is preordained, if your "god", who is so real and so powerful supposedly, knows exactly what's going to happen to us before our grandparents were a gleam in his eye, then that's how it was meant to be.

No matter what I do, I am designed a certain way, which will bring about a certain fate, which is exactly what your "god" foresaw before I was even born...and still allowed to happen. Because that's what he wants. There is no reason to be omniscient, create a faulty race of servants, and then prepare a burning pit specifically for them, unless he knew what would happen, could see it happening in his mind's eye, and WANTED it to happen. Had accepted it, was willing to work with it, and was preparing for the event. Assuming that hell actually exists as described in the Bible, every person who has ever gone to hell, or ever will go to hell, was sent there by your god because he WANTED them to be there. Before you are born, your destiny is chosen. There is absolutely no way to be omniscient and omnipotent, the creator of the entire universe, and NOT have everyone's destiny squared away.

Don't bother choosing, because if all this is true and accurate, then your choice doesn't matter. Follow your life as you will, because your fate is chosen. Your path is planned. You were designed FOR that path...the path wasn't designed for you. And no matter what happens, you will reach the end of that path. Because he wants you to.

Does this make sense to everyone? Don't bother trying, don't bother fighting, don't bother worrying or fussing or choosing. It's all preordained, according to Christianity's omniscient, all-powerful deity. Our place in the universe is etched in stone. You don't get to choose...it's already chosen, written, signed, and in progress. Don't bother fretting, because your ride has already departed, and the next time you get off, you'll be there. And then, you'll know the truth.

Please keep all discussion civil.




posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

Back in my churchy days, I was a subscriber to Calvinism, or predestination. There's enough verses in the bible to support pre-ordination/destination. But the "whosoever' crap Christians use like a 'come one come all' doormat is a stretch to the limits of possible interpretations of 'whosoever'. They liken "whosoever' as an open invitation to all, while I look at it more like "you'll hear the message if it was intended for you".



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 02:57 PM
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See, the problem is you're using logic.

The claim that we have free will, and the claim that everything unfolds according to god's will, are used without regard for logic or reason.

See, when someone is "saved" from a disaster? That's "A MIRACLE! God saved that person!" The problem is, that intervention would totally violate any notion of free will. Don't worry, though! If anything bad happens, like a little girl being abducted and murdered, well, then it's back to free will and "It isn't god's fault!"

So god's plan and our free will change, depending on the argument a believer is trying to make.

Of course we have free will. Our lives are our own. Our decsions are ours to make. There's no divine plan. There's nobody watching over us. We're the masters of our own destiny, and we're at the mercy of the random machinations of the universe. I wouldn't want it any other way.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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When I had rejected Christianity and became an atheist I had the same thoughts as the OP.

A few months ago, after some heavy reflection, researching, and meditation, I realized my issue was rather with organized religion, and it's portrayal of God and his nature, that I had the biggest problem with. My faith has been renewed, but in the teachings of Christ as opposed to the Bible (Not a fan of the Council of Nicea at all, I see organized religion as a control mechanism to keep people in line.)

It does all boil down to free choice, the ability to choose good, evil, or neither. The idea of Hell, the devil, and eternal damnation are control tools used to keep men and women in check, to keep them blindly believing rather than doing their own work and challenging their faith to make it stronger. It's the 'easy' way, and the wrong one.

I firmly hold that we do have free choice and that no one is predestined.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

Dear AfterInfinity,

There must be a gap in my understanding, I'm having a little trouble with your argument.


No matter what I do, I am designed a certain way, which will bring about a certain fate, which is exactly what your "god" foresaw before I was even born...and still allowed to happen. Because that's what he wants. There is no reason to be omniscient, create a faulty race of servants, and then prepare a burning pit specifically for them, unless he knew what would happen, could see it happening in his mind's eye, and WANTED it to happen. Had accepted it, was willing to work with it, and was preparing for the event. Assuming that hell actually exists as described in the Bible, every person who has ever gone to hell, or ever will go to hell, was sent there by your god because he WANTED them to be there.


May I give you an example of my problem? A wedding was being celebrated by a lake. The wedding party was rather large in number and they thought it would be a good idea to walk out on a little private dock to have their picture taken. It was a little dock and there were a lot of people. As the dock started shaking you could hear someone back on shore say "Aw _____, it's gonna break." And, sure enough it did. He knew it was going to happen, but he didn't want it to happen.

That's why I think it's a little iffy to say "God knew something was going to happen, therefore, the only logical possibility is that He wanted it to happen." I'm not sure that follows.

You've set up predestination as an argument against God, but most Christians have rejected it. (I can't speak for other religions.) I'm not persuaded by your argument.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Things like what you mention in your OP are what shook my religious beliefs as I've grown up. I was raised Catholic, but as I matured into an adult there was just too much wrong with the religion to allow me to believe it was the correct one. If Catholism is the right answer, why does God allow his priests, which are supposed to be God's voice on Earth, to molest children? Once I started thinking about that I started to wonder about other things. A priest is supposed to be pure and with as few sins as possible. If the priest is unholy in that he commits sins (any sins not just molestation of children), wouldn't this make the priest impure and therefore the people he baptized didn't receive a real baptismal? Meaning that these people would be damned no matter how pure their life was. So then there is the catch-all in that he can just ask for forgiveness of his sins. But this confuses me too in that if you can just ask for forgiveness of your sins, couldn't you theoretically commit mass genocide on the scale of Hitler then repent on your deathbed? So why have hell?

You raise an interesting point and yet add another logical paradox to the mix. If God is omnipotent and can do and see all, how can he create free-will which allows a human to operate outside of God's influence therefore disallowing Him to see the fate of a person after their death (be it heaven or hell)?



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 07:50 PM
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My personal thoughts are that God (or the Gods) gave us total free will, which is why we are able to commit the most terrible crimes against each other as well as the most beautiful acts. I think that even the 'Gods', 'angels' and 'demons' have free will, we are told of angels falling and demons rising....

I think that free will is the ultimate test, what will you do with this gift of free will? Will you make decisions that will benefit yourself and others or will you choose to bring darkness to everyone you meet?

I also think that as we are free to exercise our free will, we will also be held acountable for our actions...

With regards to the question of hell, I think that it exists (along with heaven) and is a part of nature. I believe that to enter what we call heaven we need to be prepared, pure and cleansed of many thnigs and meet some tough requirements to pass through the gates!

Many of us will not complete the work required to avoid hell and enter heaven so nature will do it for us (by making us go through/experience hell to prepare us for heaven and be in the presence of the divine), even though it will not be pleasent!

But what if we don't want to be cleansed by hell/nature? What if you don't want to go to heaven? Well I'm sure there is a way to avoid heaven and prolong or even manage a permanent stay in hell, theres got be if free will truely exists....right?

Gnobody



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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The Bible says that God knew before the foundation of The Earth that Jesus would die for the sins of the world. So according to The Bible, God programmed Adam and Eve to SIN in order to call them evil, kick them out of The Garden of Eden, so that Jesus could come into the picture...

So Satan/The Serpent and Evil/Sin is part of the will of God according to the bible, if you actually believe that Jesus was planned to come here before the Foundation of The Earth (The Great Sin of Eden)



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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(off topic)

Hi Charles

I recieved your U2U regarding this subject but could not reply, when I tried I got a message stating;

'You can only send private messages to ATS staff'.

Just wanted to say thanks for your message and I wasn't ignoring you!

Regards

Gnobody



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
The Bible says that God knew before the foundation of The Earth that Jesus would die for the sins of the world. So according to The Bible, God programmed Adam and Eve to SIN in order to call them evil, kick them out of The Garden of Eden, so that Jesus could come into the picture...


If you know that your child will lie to you when you ask a certain question before you ask it, did you 'programme' your child to lie?

Did you ask that child the question on purpose just so you could punish him/her? Or is the punishment necesary for them to learn/understand no matter how much you do not want to punish your child?

To say that "God knew before the foundation of The Earth that Jesus would die for the sins of the world" and then "So according to The Bible, God programmed Adam and Eve to SIN in order to call them evil, kick them out of The Garden of Eden" is quite a statement!

However, I do not agree, having foreknowledge of something or knowing something may happen does not mean that you 'prgrammed' or made it happen.

Gnobody



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

You are right there is no 'hell'...
...the idea originated with Homer/Plato...
...and was not originally part of Judeo/Christian theology.

See also: Hell on (Google) Earth...
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 01:28 AM
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reply to post by Dreine
 





My faith has been renewed, but in the teachings of Christ as opposed to the Bible (Not a fan of the Council of Nicea at all, I see organized religion as a control mechanism to keep people in line.)


So then where, if not in/through the Bible, do you find these teachings of Christ? Just asking because I found this odd that you would say you are not a fan of the Bible but are still a fan of Christ. How then do you know of this man named Christ and his teachings?



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 05:08 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


The plan is that you experience Hell so you can look for Heaven.
You start in Heaven and go out into the world to experience the things of the world. Like the prodigal son, you leave home to explore the world and when you get fed up with the world of things, you then turn around and go home.
When you are a baby you do not appreciate Heaven because you have not experienced what it feels like to be human. You become human (by being conditioned) and suffer (from mind made delusion) and then you return home to the father.
There is no choice. Great suffering will speed the process up. Only when you have suffered enough will you be ready to give suffering up.
You may search the whole world to relieve the suffering and when every avenue has been explored and there is no one and no thing that can help you will give up. Only when 'you' give up will the kingdom be revealed.
It is the ultimate human sacrifice.
edit on 10-8-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 05:51 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Certainly has convinced me. I'm stumped by your wisdom. Now, no one will believe in God.

No choice, negative thinking. Try this again.





Don't bother trying, don't bother fighting, don't bother worrying or fussing or choosing. You don't get to choose.. Don't bother fretting,




edit on 10-8-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


Don't believe. Find out the truth.



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


There is no god that created the earth and heavens, there is life, motion, and motion means change.
Nothing will be like it was, the future is unwritten, it is what you make of it.
We have a choice, the question is if we see that we have a choice, and then it depends on wich way we like to go, are you on the right path?
If one reads the bible, look up about the tabernacle, and see that you yourself are the gate.
Jesus is love, love is the way, it decribes an alchemistic route to the kingdom of heaven.
An incarnation in the divine.
Do not see Jesus as someone outside of you, feel it within you, love flowing through your vains, that is the gate.
Hell can be seen as the outer world, the world in which we live, which is full with hate, anger, violence, the hunger for power and position, the strive for succes and wealth.
Everyone is eager to reach for their ideal, whatever that is, but to enter the kindom of heaven, one must let go of it all, and himself.



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by Dreine
 



A few months ago, after some heavy reflection, researching, and meditation, I realized my issue was rather with organized religion, and it's portrayal of God and his nature, that I had the biggest problem with.


Exactly. My OP was intended to point out the flawed perspective, rather than flawed reality...if that makes any sense.



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by randyvs
 



Certainly has convinced me. I'm stumped by your wisdom. Now, no one will believe in God.



I only try to "convince" people when I know that the product I'm selling is faulty. Here, I'm trying to SHOW you.

And I don't want to turn people atheist. I believe in a divine consciousness. More precisely, Stephen King put it in some of the most eloquent words I've ever come across:


"I believe in God...I just don't believe he's the bloodthirsty ***hole you make him out to be."


In short, I'm attempting to reveal to the sheeple that it's real, they just don't have a f***ing clue about it's nature. And meanwhile, they pretend to know EXACTLY what it's all about.



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 11:48 AM
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So basicaly what you are saying is if god is all knowing (like the bible implies) then everything is predetermined. We have no choice. Contradiction would be that the bible also implies we have free will.This would make god not "all knowing" . Truth is that both are proven correct . Think of it like this. There is only one choice. That choice is to do the will of god. Predetermination starts there.God either knows you or does not. God only knows those who do his will. Hope this sheds a little light on a dark thought.



posted on Aug, 10 2012 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by Theophorus
 



So basicaly what you are saying is if god is all knowing (like the bible implies) then everything is predetermined. We have no choice.


Correct.


God either knows you or does not. God only knows those who do his will.


...read what you JUST posted up there. Please. Because you just backpedaled so far, you're back at the start. You can't be SELECTIVELY OMNISCIENT. That is NOWHERE in the Bible.

:bnghd:

And they call ME stupid...
Hold on while I go weep in mingled disgust and despair for the fate of this world and all who inhabit it...



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