false apostle Paul is the 1st AntiChrist! Christians quote Paul to counter radical teachings of Jes

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Tell that to the Christians that use pauls words as such... Most of them around ATS have been banned already... but theres still a few left... I've told you before Paul has nothing on Jesus... i know Paul can't counter Jesus.

He meant a sin sacrifice.

I know what he meant... i was just clairifying

:

When Jesus was alive there was no such thing as the church (ekklesia) or the New Covenant of grace. The church was born on Pentecost and the New Covenant was established right before His arrest. Historical context is vital.

reply to post by ahnggk

Since many Christians believe Paul's writings is also correct, they downplayed Jesus radical teachings. And thought He was speaking figuratively. But if Jesus is speaking figuratively, then why did Jesus and his closest disciples lived a very austere life with very little possessed or none at all? Why did Jesus told that worldly possessions can forfeit your salvation? Why did Jesus told to 'carry your cross', only few will find the narrow gate and the narrow road?

From my own research, the Gospel of Jesus is NOT to change. It was the same thousands of years earlier in the Book of Enoch up to Jesus, so why would it suddenly change upon the having Paul in the scene? Unfortunately, the research had to be done with a book out of Canon. That's how bad the Canon Process and eventually the Canon Bible is.

Paul was here to contradict Jesus' quite radical teachings, thus, he is the first antichrist!

Paul was a devout Pharisee and a son of a Pharisee. He was also a student of Hillel. When Paul mentions rightly dividing truth, he is speaking of Hillel's seven rules of the scribe, originating with Enoch (Hermes), the first scribe. Using the tools of the Pharisee, we can all rightly divide truth by the Old Testament. Reflecting on Jesus backwards, we can compare the context of what was said by the Lord and what was said by the Living Word (Jesus) later. The seven rules clarify what was said by comparison and show total agreement. Paul, being a member of the Jewish scribes and teachers would have used the same rules to then project words forward into new writing. All of us can then compare the three and see that they agree.

Why did Jesus speak a sermon on the mount that none of us can live up to? He was demonstrating the end of our journey that is required of all of us who take the name of Christ. We are currently waiting on this salvation to come. There is a timeline. Here it is.

Epistle of Barnabas 15:3 "Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Epistle of Barnabas 15:4

Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end."

2 Days -Adam to Abraham 2000 Years of Age 1 (FATHER)
2 Days -Abraham to Jesus 2000 Years of Age 2 (SON)
2 Days -Jesus to Today 2000 Years of Age 3 (HOLY SPIRIT)
1 Day -Day of Rest (Day of the Lord) 1000 years (SALVATION)

Jesus lived what was required to overcome the world by example. For us, it is not our work. If it was our work, then the life of Christ was for nothing. Even the deciples failed in the task. Jesus is the ONLY man that could do it. He showed us that Paul was correct when stating this. We can rightly divide this truth clearly by the Old Testament. We cannot overcome. Only Christ can overcome. We place ourselves in Him as the sacrifice we cannot fully make. Paul said it this way.

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

When God was slapped in the face in the Garden and we choose our own path, God allowed it. He let us try it on our own. What we find is tyranny by law. Why? The law is made for the thief. God's law is love. There is no law needed if we all follow God's perfect law. The Law is only there to protect those who follow God's law against those who don't. It was a guardian.

Again, Paul had it right.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We can't do it. God must. A Father raises his children. They cannot do it themselves. It must be by example.

reply to post by Deetermined


The blood sacrifices were never needed to begin with...

Do you believe Jesus changed the rules or corrected them?

The true God does not need one to harm any living creature as a means of atonement for sin... This was mans lack of understanding as is well documented in the OT

reply to post by Akragon

Do you believe Jesus changed the rules or corrected them?

Sure. Depending on which ones you're talking about specifically.

The entire chapters of Matthew 5, 6 & 7 goes into detail.

reply to post by Akragon


Hey, Akragon, the last time we chatted about Paul, I asked you to provide me some scriptural evidence of Paul's writings refuting Christ's words. You replied, but either missed or ignored my refutation of your claim: here. You might want to follow up on that before you go getting back into the pool.

To the OP: Paul's teachings on money were against idleness. A lot of what he wrote was in response to specific issues that were going on in the churches that he was writing to, and there was apparently a fair amount of laziness among some in those congregations -- the "I am your spiritual master, pay your coins and I'll share my wisdom" kind of thing that has plagued religion since day one. Paul was just pointing out that he was self-sufficient, so why shouldn't the other guys be, as well?

He also made the point that everyone should work, in order that they could share with those who didn't have anything. One supposes that his definition of "didn't have anything" probably wasn't too flexible on those who "didn't have anything because they were lazy", focusing rather on those who couldn't work, like widows, orphans or the disabled.

reply to post by adjensen


That is one translation from many... i prefer to stick to the KJV but to each his own...

IF you look at the various translations, more of them say he considered himself equal to God... which is a lie

And lets not forget John also reiterated that statement... Though being a jew at least its understandable from his perspective


New Living Translation (©2007)
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

International Standard Version (©2008)
In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

English Revised Version
who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

Webster's Bible Translation
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Weymouth New Testament
Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.

Young's Literal Translation
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,


By the way... I have my own "pool" on the subject as you can see...

And my "pool" is much deeper... feel free to wade in the shallow end

reply to post by ahnggk


Your OP doesn't make sense. Why would Paul go to his death to end it with beheading by the Romans when all he had to do was recant? Kinda stupid to walk over 2000 miles on foot, sleeping in the snow and cold and always being half starved to lead people away from Jesus. So your interpretation must be wrong, because no man can call Jesus Lord unless it be by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:1-3

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, the Word was later given to Paul to give to the gentiles because the jews kept refusing to believe. The only Apostles to the gentiles chosen was Paul. The "Jerusalem 12" were given only to Israel, although Peter had a penchant for helping Paul. I don't see why you reject someone Peter and the other 12 accepted.

Mark 9:38-41

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”

39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.


The first cencury christians were not dirt poor, they all would sell off their properties and then give it to the church and the church would redistribute the proceeds equally amoung members while they lived in a communal setting.

Matthew 19:16-26

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

With God All Things Are Possible

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


When Jesus said "it will be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven", he didn't say it was impossible, just difficult. The "eye of a needle" was in reference to a particular market in Jerusalem that was so noisy it would scare the camels and they would fight going in it.

Serving Mammon means your mind is only for obtaining and hoarding more wealth. You can be poor and still serve Mammon if youre desires are for gaining more wealth instead of focusing on Christ. What you gain after becomming a christian are blessings from him.

Matthew 6:31-34

31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

reply to post by Akragon


See, in all of those instances, Paul is saying that Jesus decided not to maintain his equality to the Father, preferring to become lessor and subservient to his will. You're reading it wrong, because you're taking it out of context and, because of that error, you're reading the negative as a positive.

In that passage, Paul is absolutely not saying that the incarnated, pre-resurrected Christ is equal to the Father.

reply to post by adjensen


Im sorry i disagree...

and shared with God equality...

Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality

counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.

Trust in Paul i guess...

I will not

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Akragon

 

See, in all of those instances, Paul is saying that Jesus decided not to maintain his equality to the Father, preferring to become lessor and subservient to his will. You're reading it wrong, because you're taking it out of context and, because of that error, you're reading the negative as a positive.

In that passage, Paul is absolutely not saying that the incarnated, pre-resurrected Christ is equal to the Father.

No, what Paul is saying is the pre-incarnated Jesus was equal to God.

reply to post by ahnggk


I think you forgot these ones friend:

Matthew 7:1 "Stop judging, so that you won't be judged,"

Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Luke 6:41 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

reply to post by Akragon


Again, intentionally or not, you are reading it wrong.

Paul says that the incarnated, pre-resurrection Christ was NOT equal to the Father, he had willingly undertaken the role of servant, so anything that the incarnated Christ said about it is in harmony with what Paul wrote.

It's right there, in black and white, in the next verse, which you are pointedly ignoring, and which I cited in the other thread:

but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. (Philippians 2:7 NIV)

I rather doubt that you're unfamiliar with the concept of taking something out of context to try and make a point, so I wonder why we're supposed to take you seriously when you stoop to such spurious tactics.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

John 7:24

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I've learned to steer clear from Pauls works.

I mean, if christians cant agree on him, then why should non-christians trust him as a valid source.

Thank you!!! Same as reincarnation....Hebrews 9:27 is used to argue against it. Who wrote Hebrews, nobody knows...looks like Paul spoke it??

You are correct to deny Paul...the Benjamite Wolf...

An apostle by his own authority...he said Jesus spoke to him, and proclaimed himself an apostle...the only self appointed apostle....

*************Get a RED LETTER BIBLE...it will shed much light on who said what...

PS Jesus died before Christianity began...so was he a Christian?

Many things will soon be set straight...

reply to post by Drala

Hebrews 9:27 is used to argue against it.

That passage can not be used as an arguement against reincarnation if one understands the context of the chapter... The subject being addressed is whether or not Christ had to be sacrificed more than once.

That verse has nothing to do with reincarnation what so ever...

reply to post by ahnggk
I'm going to have to disagree with the thrust of this thread, although it is an understandable one.

I don't consider Paul at all in conflict with Christ myself, but even the other apostles realized that he was easy to mistake. As Peter warned regarding Paul's writings (in 2nd Peter 3):

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

EliYah's website gives some good studies and clarification on Paul's writings to resolve this issue.

Take care.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I've learned to steer clear from Pauls works.

I mean, if christians cant agree on him, then why should non-christians trust him as a valid source.

Your mistake is assuming those who argue against Paul are even believers of the new covenant. No real christian has a problem supporting Paul because he heavily sites the prophetic scriptures later fulfilled by Christ. He reveals the foreshadowing in the OT as it was fulfilled. He was the Apostle to the gentiles. Gentiles were not raised from the cradle knowing Torah and the prophets, he was. And because he was a jew and learned in the Torah and prophets he was able to point to the gentiles (whom the majority of his letters were written to) where scripture had been fulfilled and how they were to operate in this new life that believing Christ as our Savior afforded them.

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
The blood sacrifices were never needed to begin with... The true God does not need one to harm any living creature as a means of atonement for sin...

DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

Without the blood of Jesus you WILL be "LOST IN SPACE" so to speak...

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." -Colossians 1:14

Hebrews 9:22, "...without shedding of blood is no remission. (forgivness )"

“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
-1st Peter 1:18,19

...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1st John 1:7).

What REALLY happens when a person is born again? Jesus' blood is applied.

This is the main reason WHY the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant has been so viciously attacked and covered-up:

"The Ark of the Covenant was found in a cave 20 feet directly below the spot where Jesus was crucified. God intended for the blood of the Lamb to fall upon the Mercy Seat..."

Link

"And so it was that God the Father had rent the rocks to make a way for His Son's blood to flow down from the spear-wound, through the newly formed fissure onto the very Mercy Seat itself. Now just think about this for a moment. Jeremiah had deposited the Ark in the cave some six centuries B.C., with absolutely no knowledge of the events which were to occur on Good Friday.

The Romans who hacked out the post-holes had absolutely no knowledge of what lay beneath their feet, nor that they were positioning the CENTRAL hole in exactly the right place. And until the Lord had died, there was no way for blood to trickle down because there was no crack. But these Amazing coincidences actually happened.

Yes, they ARE coincidences, because everything had to COINCIDE exactly for it to happen, but there was never any human design - it was entirely the work of God in Heaven, who knew the end from the beginning, and arranged for it to happen in that way.

THE ARK OF THE COVENANT

"As they began viewing the cells under the microscope, they saw cells dividing before their eyes! They could tell it was human blood, but "This blood is alive!"

"They couldn't believe what they were seeing! They continued with their tests and found the blood to be unique from any other human blood! "

"With tears in their eyes they asked, "Whose blood is this?" Mr. Wyatt replied, "It is the blood of your Messiah." Then they asked who the Messiah was, and they began wailing and shouting. No other male human being has ever had this same chromosome count! Christ's blood is alive and unique to prove His divinity to the world before He returns to this earth." Source

Every time I hear "the Apostle Paul" it gets translated internally to "the apostate Paul" - one has to wonder how Paul got to be an apostle since he never met Jesus! Someone asked what is radical about "Love thy neighbor as thy self" - it's not much of a radical STATEMENT - but especially today it is a COMPLETELY RADICAL way of life if one practices it.

ganjoa