false apostle Paul is the 1st AntiChrist! Christians quote Paul to counter radical teachings of Jes, page 11

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reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 10:16 AM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalPaul is addressing " Here is how one is saved", and James is saying " Here is what saved folks look like". They both say the same thing just take it in another direction. James is talking about the fruit of genuine faith will result in good works.

Thanks for the correction.

Your argument can be valid because we all have Bibles and all can read...

...But during Paul's time, the Gentiles did not have the scriptures and if they did, they probably couldn't read it. They could be depending entirely on Paul's speeches to understand the Gospel...

...So if Paul missed out on something and/or said something different, the early Gentiles are in trouble don't you think? It would make him either irresponsible or a false prophet.

On the other hand, Jesus told it completely in his teachings, how to be saved, and the evidence of the transformation. Jesus was clear, concise, and complete on the 'How Tos' of salvation.
edit on 8-8-2012 by ahnggk because: (no reason given)

Well if you want to make that argument then you have to throw out Christ as well. His teachings during that time were likewise passed on by oral tradition. The gospels were not written for the first 20 or so years. Everyone relied upon oral tradition of what He taught.

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 05:34 PM by ahnggk

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Well if you want to make that argument then you have to throw out Christ as well. His teachings during that time were likewise passed on by oral tradition. The gospels were not written for the first 20 or so years. Everyone relied upon oral tradition of what He taught.

I hope we do not. Jesus preached everything that was needed to have the best relationship with God and all His teachings were coherent.

Like we don't have to know how Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt into the Promise Land. We only need to know that following Jesus is very hard but He will be with us in that difficult journey. We don't need to know about the creation story in Genesis, we only need to know how to care for and protect His creations to have meaningful relationship with God.

On the other hand, Paul introduced confusion regarding the law. Those poor Gentiles...

Galatians 2:16 (KJB)
"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

Matthew 7:23 (NLT)
"But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws."

It shows that Paul himself has not been born again of the spirit. No man will be justified by the law indeed, it takes the transforming power of the Holy Spirit to make it possible and it can't happen overnight. It will remain a struggle and it will be difficult but Jesus never said it's gonna be easy.

Believing in Jesus, doesn't only mean we believed he came to Earth and died for our sins and lived again but also to believe his teachings, the fulfillment of the laws. He demonstrated that He will obey God to death. Jesus taught us what it means to love God and to earn the love of God.

Faith and belief that Jesus did what He did is not the end of the story. It's only the beginning to believe what Jesus believed in and died for. It's one hell of a journey.

edit on 8-8-2012 by ahnggk because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 08:02 PM by NOTurTypical

reply to post by ahnggk

Do you realize the covenant of the law was broken by Exodus ch. 24? And Paul's teaching about the law is quite true. The law's purpose was NOT to make people righteous, but to condemn all people as sinners in need of Christ. Remember one fail of the law means a person is a sinner. Example, one murder makes a person a murderer.

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 10:05 PM by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The law's purpose was NOT to make people righteous, but to condemn all people as sinners in need of Christ. Remember one fail of the law means a person is a sinner. Example, one murder makes a person a murderer.

NuT : "The law's purpose was NOT to make people righteous, but to condemn all people as sinners in need of Christ. "

-Can you cite the specific verse which teaches this? Something tells me that teaching comes from Paul. Because throughout the bible, keeping the law is equated with being righteous.

NuT : "Remember one fail of the law means a person is a sinner. "

-Then the sinner only had to sincerely repent to God.
Ever read Psalm 51
Or did this beautiful Psalm become invalid after Paul arrived?

Thats how simple it is. There is no need to convolute things by bringing in Pauls doctrines.

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 11:05 PM by ahnggk

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Indeed. The fruits of a Christian is the 'struggle' to obey the laws. It devastates them every time they break the law and are quick to repent.

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians today don't know they are breaking the most important laws: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, strength, soul, and Love thy neighbor as self. They love their jobs, their hobbies, their families, their pets, their house, their possessions more than God. They don't care if people starve in other parts of the world. It would just make them teary eyed, that's it, nothing.

Neighbors doesn't mean people living next to your house as Jesus explains it (Luke 10:25-37). They can be thousands of miles away. We get bigger smile, even jump and down if our salary gets doubled than if someone invites us to do missions outreach in slums over a long period. We can't even think of trying to spread the Gospel in Afghanistan!

All we Christians care about is barbeque on weekends, dinner at friend's house, 'Bible Study feast', food fights, Sunday 'make me feel good church service', 10% tithes for God to provide financial stability. I could go on and on with these silly things. This is not what loving God is all about. You are worshiping another God. Your God hates Jesus and his followers.

edit on 8-8-2012 by ahnggk because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 11:25 PM by NOTurTypical

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Well, considering my example how many sins must a person commit before they are a sinner?

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 11:28 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by ahnggk
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Indeed. The fruits of a Christian is the 'struggle' to obey the laws. It devastates them every time they break the law and are quick to repent.

The laws of God as Jesus fulfilled it is perfect. It strives to save this dying world, those creations that are suffering from the onslaught of men and fallen angels' evil inventions which is the now called the modern civilization and the evils of society.

To Paul, it seems okay to just sit back and relax, thinking that God will do everything for them. This is not what a good parent will do to their sons and daughters. God is raising up men and women who are willing to die for their beliefs, not spoiled brats who thinks God is a genie.

That's wholly unfair. Paul in numerous epistles declares grace is not a license to sin. And why not address what the other apostles, specifically James and Peter, decided in regards to this matter as pertaining to new covenant Christians in Acts 15?

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 11:53 PM by ahnggk

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's wholly unfair. Paul in numerous epistles declares grace is not a license to sin. And why not address what the other apostles, specifically James and Peter, decided in regards to this matter as pertaining to new covenant Christians in Acts 15?

Sorry about that, my post was edited since then. But it makes Christians think it's okay to sin again and again after all, you can repent Jesus will forgive you every time... Has they taken the literal meaning of the word repent? Reinforcing it was how Paul tried to win the Gentiles by being 'one of them' that he would adapt their cultures. This meant compromising some of Jesus teachings especially to be part of the world

The young/teenage Christians very much loved the idea because they loved the world so much and it's carnality. Christians in general loved this idea and makes it think it's okay to be 'in the world' so to make them more approachable to non-Christians. So they do what every worldly non-Christian does, they get hobbies, get better jobs, bigger houses, more expensive cars. Honestly, they're not doing it for God deep in their core, they loved this world! They're too much in this world they deceived themselves so much they still think God is behind all those and it's okay.

reply posted on 8-8-2012 @ 11:57 PM by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Well, considering my example how many sins must a person commit before they are a sinner?

1. One sin is all they need to commit to be a sinner.
Now tell me, do you think sincere repentance to God brings forgiveness, or is Psalm 51 a forgery?

Psalm 51

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

2. Also which verse/chapter which teaches that the "law's purpose was NOT to make people righteous, but to condemn all people as sinners in need of Christ.", as you said earlier?

Why do I feel that this teaching comes from Paul?

edit on 9-8-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 9-8-2012 @ 03:50 AM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's wholly unfair. Paul in numerous epistles declares grace is not a license to sin. And why not address what the other apostles, specifically James and Peter, decided in regards to this matter as pertaining to new covenant Christians in Acts 15?

Sorry about that, my post was edited since then. But it makes Christians think it's okay to sin again and again after all, you can repent Jesus will forgive you every time... Has they taken the literal meaning of the word repent? Reinforcing it was how Paul tried to win the Gentiles by being 'one of them' that he would adapt their cultures. This meant compromising some of Jesus teachings especially to be part of the world

The young/teenage Christians very much loved the idea because they loved the world so much and it's carnality. Christians in general loved this idea and makes it think it's okay to be 'in the world' so to make them more approachable to non-Christians. So they do what every worldly non-Christian does, they get hobbies, get better jobs, bigger houses, more expensive cars. Honestly, they're not doing it for God deep in their core, they loved this world! They're too much in this world they deceived themselves so much they still think God is behind all those and it's okay.

But Gentiles were NEVER a party to the covenant in Exodus 20 so why are you trying to make Gentiles a party to it? And you forgot to tell me what Peter and James said in Acts 15 about new covenant Gentiles.

reply posted on 9-8-2012 @ 03:52 AM by NOTurTypical

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I'll ask you the same thing, what does Peter and James say in Acts 15 about Gentiles and the demands of the law. This entire argument was the reason for the Jerusalem council. Also, how was Abraham saved? Noah? Adam?

reply posted on 9-8-2012 @ 06:26 AM by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I'll ask you the same thing, what does Peter and James say in Acts 15 about Gentiles and the demands of the law.

Once again you are dodging my simple question by asking another question...but nevermind, I'll answer it.

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

There. Basically that the law was impossible to follow and that it wasn't applicable to gentiles. Is that what you wanted to hear?

Now, there is something really wrong with this picture.
The bible has plenty of examples of people who were able to keep the law. Also God Himself says that the law isn't too difficult to keep. (Deuteronomy 30:11) I dont now why the speaker taught the law was "a yoke that nobody was able to bear."

reply posted on 9-8-2012 @ 06:31 AM by ahnggk

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
But Gentiles were NEVER a party to the covenant in Exodus 20 so why are you trying to make Gentiles a party to it? And you forgot to tell me what Peter and James said in Acts 15 about new covenant Gentiles.

Acts 15 has problems of its own.

First it was going good.

Acts 15:7-10 Peter was telling how God told them that there is no discrimination between Jew and Gentile regarding the Gospel and receiving the Gospel and the Holy Spirit (which reveals the truth). The Law of Moses is entirely different thing where you'll be stoned to death or left to die for adultery, dishonoring parents, etc. The Gospel of Jesus teaches mercy among other things. But this is the same teachings to Love God with all your heart.. love neighbors as yourself.. hate money, love God, take care of the poor etc. This is the same thing God wants for the Gentiles as for the Jews, the very teachings of Jesus.

Things went wrong here:

Acts 15:19. It becomes a decision by a man (James) not by God or at least, guided by his Will or through the Holy Spirit. James made it clear in this verse it is his judgement, not by anyone else.

Under those rules, you are free to commit idolatry and pursue wealth. Some of the things God hates... ...So why do the Gentiles want to be Christians?? It doesn't add up!

So here's the difference. According to Peter which is also according to God, the Gentiles are under the new covenant as the Jews. But according James (his decision only) the Gentiles have to do something else apart from what Jesus teaches.

Remember God is the same, does not change His mind. Who do you believe?

reply posted on 9-8-2012 @ 06:37 AM by teapot

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Well, considering my example how many sins must a person commit before they are a sinner?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
One sin is all they need to commit to be a sinner.

We are all flawed, in thought and word and deed. All are sinners. Many believe they are not sinners just because they did not commit a murder this week and totally ignore coveting that new car, allowing addiction to control their lives, misjudging others, all those little things we all do that separate us from God.

It is for the doing away of sin and cleansing of the heart of man that Christ's work was necessary. Paul was right when he said that only by grace are we saved but that does not mean he should be accepted as a leading authority on the workings of God or how Christ brought about the salvation of man.

Individual responsibility for accepting Grace is the two edged sword of salvation and many who claim to be christians simply have not done this because as Jesus pointed out, the way is narrow. Accepting Grace is a hard thing to do because first one must accept one's own sinfulness. If a man claims to not be a sinner, to be capable of evil, he is a liar. Only in acceptance of our own sin can we even begin to approach the cross and prepare to accept God's greatest gift to mankind.

reply posted on 9-8-2012 @ 06:58 AM by ahnggk

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
The bible has plenty of examples of people who were able to keep the law. Also God Himself says that the law isn't too difficult to keep. (Deuteronomy 30:11) I dont now why the speaker taught the law was "a yoke that nobody was able to bear."

I did a little research which may have significance to Acts 15. Some of the believers who were Pharisees and suggested the Gentiles to be under the law of Moses and be circumcised might be referring to:

en.wikipedia.org...

And in addition to the law of Moses like getting stoned to death for adultery, etc.

It's a very complicated and difficult law indeed. The Gospel of Jesus is a lot simpler and a lot merciful. You are not required to observe the complicated traditions that the Pharisees required.

Back in those times, the new covenant is relatively easy because many new Christians are very poor and oppressed. They got nothing to lose and they have no issues giving everything they got. Not like today where quite many Christians live in comfort and abundance of the good things in this world, even the new covenant will be extremely hard for them to take in its literal context.

reply posted on 9-8-2012 @ 07:02 AM by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I've answered your questions.

Now how about you answer what I had asked earlier, instead of creating another diversion?

1. when did Jesus ever say that the law would be terminated, after his death?
Asked here

2. You said : ""The law's purpose was NOT to make people righteous, but to condemn all people as sinners in need of Christ. "
Now I want to see the specific verse which teaches this? You seem to know your verses...

3. I answered your question about how many sins one needs to commit to become a sinner.
Now I'd like to know if do you think sincere repentance to God brings forgiveness, or is Psalm 51 a forgery?
asked here

reply posted on 10-8-2012 @ 02:45 AM by jmdewey60

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I already showed you support you dismissed it because of contempt for the majority text.

Been looking for that over the last two days and did not find it.
You may want to link to the post where you presented your evidence to save me from another two days of looking.
I was mainly looking for the "disrespecting" part since I did not expect to find any actual evidence.
You seem to be combining two forms of idolatry, worshiping one brand of text, plus the worship of your cult leader who feeds you all the rubbish about Alexandria being somehow inherently evil while following the doctrine of the ancient Alexandrian Bishop who was so enmeshed with the policies of Constantine.

reply posted on 10-8-2012 @ 03:16 AM by jmdewey60

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I meant he was a disciple of Polycarp who in turn was a direct disciple of John the Apostle. 2nd from John

That is just fabrication since the only statement concerning this relationship between Polycarp and Irenaeus was that he heard him talking once when he was young.

reply posted on 10-8-2012 @ 08:05 AM by Deetermined

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Deuteronomy 5:29

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Psalm 51:6

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

1 Samuel 16:7

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

Here's something else interesting to note. Obviously, the reason some of the apostles were still teaching the Old Covenant to the Jews, is because it doesn't appear that Jesus plans on incorporating them into the New Covenant until the time of the new Millennium, when he raises them from the valley of the dry bones.

Hebrews 8:9-13 (I suggest reading the whole chapter for more details.)

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

A complete read of Ezekiel 37 talks in great detail about raising them up out of their graves (valley of the dry bones) and cleansing them in order to live with Jesus in the new Millennium.

edit on 10-8-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-8-2012 @ 01:13 PM by jmdewey60

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I'm talking about the feast of Pentecost, the birth of the church.

You could say that the church began with John the Baptist, who was the forerunner, just as Abraham was the forerunner of Israel, where it was said of him that he was the first Hebrew, and so John was the first Christian, meaning a member of the Congregation of Jesus.

And Christ said the cup and bread was the institution of the new covenant.

The new covenant is not a formal legalistic instrument but was something based on belief, an internal thing where for example, Jesus would use the symbolism of the drinking from the cup to represent this aspect of it, where it is something internal that happens to you when you take this thing into you, as one would drink the wine from the cup.

edit on 10-8-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

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