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Arizona pastor jailed for home bible study

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posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 03:14 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 




posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 03:17 AM
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One more time... the topid is "Arizone pastor Jailed for home bible study. Can we please stick to a debate of the subject and avoid the interpersonal jabs? Engaging in back and forth attaks does nothing to promote your views or make any points, If these behaviors persist staff may be forced to close this thread, clean it up, and then reopen it with far more supervision than a subject of this nature should require. So, once again, I ask. Argue the points, not one another. If tempers are flaring then I suggest taking a break and letting the emotions calm a bit. Please help us keep the decorum at an appropriate level as it's much less productive if the staff has to step in to perform this simple function.

Thank you

Hefficide
Forum Moderator



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 03:17 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by article
 


[SNIP]

Have you read any further into this story? Do you know any facts yet? I'm not trying to insult you; I'm trying to show you the truth. Here's a short and sweet version if you happened to miss something in the thread.

Man in Arizona obviously has issues.
These issues result in crime, unnecessary lawsuits, and other legal troubles.
He eventually decides to build a church on his property.
It's bigger than expected, and actually ends up breaking several(nearly 100) city codes.
He angers his neighbors by having nearly 100 people meet in said church twice a week.
This church is also used as an umbrella to give this man the ability to evade taxes.
He does this for five years, all the while knowing that his building is against city code.
He goes to jail for two months.
Fox News comes out with a sensational story about a helpless Arizona pastor persecuted for his belief in Jesus Christ, being thrown down by the communist Obama(who somehow holds positions in the Phoenix city government).


I mean, this isn't at all an issue regarding Christianity.


EDIT: Well now. I feel silly for letting myself get off topic enough to get my post deleted. Hopefully this one stays up.
edit on 6-8-2012 by BlindBelligerence because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-8-2012 by Gemwolf because: Removed off-topic part



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by article
 

article, I initially sided with the pastor, but after doing some outside reading, discovered that he's playing both sides of the fence. He got a tax exemption for his church, but does not call it a church when codes are to be enforced.

Either call it a church, get the tax exemptions and enforce the codes

or

Call it a game room lose the tax exemption and carry on.

He can't have it both ways.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 05:05 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


If this isn't proof that the world is run by a pathocracy then I don't know what is.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 05:34 AM
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Frankly, if the city ordinance has the affect of directly impeding the practicing of religion, which is exactly what it appears to do in this case, then the city ordinance has to either be modified or stricken.
edit on 6-8-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


How is this not a violation of the free exercise clause of the 2nd Amendment?


Exactly the same way as if you claimed that cutting the heart out of a 7 year old virgin and eating it was a religious practice and the authorities arrested you for murder. The issue here is not whether someone can hold a public assembly for bible study in the building - it's that he can't hold a public assembly for ANYTHING in that building.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 06:13 AM
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why is everyone saying that this is against the law? they make the laws, god says you have to
follow them, not you can pick and choose which to follow and which not to follow, your own
book commands that you submit to the rule which GOD has placed there, it is not your place
to question what GOD chose to do, if you wanna play pretend dont change the rules when they
simply dont suit you, i swear people just keep on and keep on ignoring that not only are they
directly responsible for this kind of problem, but their own rules and their own GOD is perfectly
ok with this.

this man not only violated the law but also ignored his own teachings to do what he did,
then has the arrogance to claim his beliefs are being violated, yes sure they are by him
and his followers, it cannot be both ways, either he believes he is suppose to submit
or he does not believe what he teaches, being of a certain faith does not give anyone
the right to break the law, i swear i think we should force these people to be tried
by a christian court using the bible as the law book, lets see how long it takes before
they beg for mercy from such a system.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Fact Sheet Regarding the Michael Salman Case



The Michael Salman court case is about building safety. Building and safety codes are in-place to protect the safety and welfare of all of our residents. Some of the relevant facts in this case include:

A house of worship is allowed in any zoning district in the City of Phoenix
The case is about the building that is used for regular assembly does not meet construction and fire code requirements for assembly
All houses of worship in the City of Phoenix must conform to the same codes


Looks like this is another case of someone disobeying city codes, then crying "religious persecution".



Due to the regular, reoccurring high vehicular traffic in this quiet residential neighborhood, neighbors repeatedly complained about the public assembly occurring on his property. Because of the multiple, reoccurring complaints, the City investigated the activity and discovered numerous building code violations primarily related to fire safety standards. Once apprised of these violations, the City could be held liable for not enforcing safety code requirements in the event anyone was injured on the premises. Prior to commencement of prosecution, Mr. Salman was asked, repeatedly, to comply with the safety codes of the City. He chose to ignore these requests for voluntary compliance prior to the commencement of any proceedings.

Below is a summary of the case from the City's Law Department, including quotes from the relevant court judgments.


Watch out for FOX news... There's an agenda there.
so glad you set the record straight here. none of this sounded right to me......but hey, i'm bad about jumping to conclusions when i see the crap on MSM too. it's hard to seperate reality from the crap.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 06:32 AM
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If this is true, let them try it with Muslims and see the result.

However, if this is what it is coming to, then decide right now if you'll live with it.

When... this is ready to happen, I for one will rejoice in it because it will sort the sheep from the goats, it will sort out the weak from the strong, and the called from the chosen. But it will only happen because Christians have been misunderstanding meekness for weakness. Generally the churches of the world are weak, spineless, uncommitted self serving and willing to be trodden on rather that be a victorious church full off chosen sons of God preparing themselves to rule and reign....

...ask yourself this, would you give a lazy loser and high position in your company? Well, read the Bible, either does God, and the church in the USA may be about to reap what it has sown or failed to sow.

You Christians that have pastors running your churches give me a Biblical example of pastors running churches. Give me an example of a Pastor Paul or a Pastor James, there isn't one. There are only Apostles. If your pastor is not under an Apostle he's not a true pastor. Without unified leadership there is no power. Where there is no power you get taken over. Christ wants a secure confident bride, not someone in disheveled clothes, looking like she hasn't had a bath in a month, no makeup and a timid or sour attitude being dragged to the altar or worse.. demanding a civil ceremony and refusing to take sincere vows. Yet that is the church in some places

If things are like this in Arizona, then only the only one's to blame in Arizona for it are the Christians themselves over the last 40 years till now. Trying saying that this Sunday to your age 40+ pewsitters. Where were they when various ungodly laws were being passed...???, saying it's not my business? Yes that's what they were saying !

Makes your job harder now doesn't it. Harder but not impossible.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 06:50 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


At the end of the day. This was about people bloating the street with there cars and not being considerate of the people living in that Residential area. He was told what he needed to do. Rather than being a good neighbor and getting together with all of his neighbors and working something out and complying with there concerns and the city having to do it for them. He got what he deserved. Anybody that calls this a breach of religious freedom should investigate the facts more.

This was a pissing contest over people being cross with one another because of al the vehicles and traffic in the area he resided in. Nothing more. He could have addressed it like a grown adult and resolved everything before it went as far as it did. Now they are spinning this Religious Freedom crap to gain sympathy.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 07:42 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Why you would even make that assumption, I don't know. I KNOW there is corruption in government. There is corruption in the police dept, in the church, in the educational system, in voting, in the freaking fire department! There is corruption, but that doesn't mean that everything and everyone is corrupt.

There's corruption everywhere... There is goodness everywhere, too.

Sharp intake of breathe there. You are spoiling their party. They NEED to believe that everyone is evil and corrupt and out to get them as part of a global highly organised exceptionally secretive conspiracy. Common sense and reality it is the bain of such beliefs.

You must be satan himself



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 07:48 AM
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I'm a church guy and will usually default to the side of the church. BUT, I had a guy start a church illegally next to my house, slowly over the course of years. He violated every law in the book and I had to move before I could get the town to stop him. He actually built a sanctuary or church or whatever the Catholics call it attached to his house!

So, after reading a lot of this I am on the side of the city unless I get more info that makes me think otherwise. The neighbours have a right not to have a house in their neighbourhood used as a PUBLIC FACILITY in violation of the zoning laws. I don't know when the line gets drawn. Obviously you can have a home bible study but at a certain point you have to move to a location that can accommodate the people you have showing up, that has a parking lot.


edit on 6-8-2012 by shogun12 because: correct diction



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
Frankly, if the city ordinance has the affect of directly impeding the practicing of religion, which is exactly what it appears to do in this case, then the city ordinance has to either be modified or stricken.
edit on 6-8-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)


The city codes are just fine they don't need to be changed. They are in place for the safety of the people involved. The problem is the man who lied for his building permits who didn't build the building to meet the code so it would be safe. Then he lies again saying it's just a prayer meeting and then files for a tax free exempt status stating it's a church. This guy is nothing but a con man playing on peoples faith for profit.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 09:01 AM
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Just read that this guy lied about just having prayer meetings and then filed for a tax free exempt status.

Once you file for tax free status, then you're running a church.
edit on 8/6/2012 by AntiNWO because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by AntiNWO
 


After 5 years of driving his neighbors property values down and spitting in their faces for their rights and considerations as members of the neighborhood, I'd imagine the police didn't have much choice in the matter. It wasn't just image and contempt of cop by this stage, although this guy was good for that too.... This is Arizona and Phoenix no less. People are patient folk..but they don't have the patience of Job and eventually, someone was going to get other someone's and do something downright rash about the whole problem.

It's why, in my view, police are absolutely necessary..even if over the top a bit too often these days. They did something before everyone else did. After 5 long years of this terror of the neighborhood down there, he got off a bit easy IMO and something tells me this is still far from over. We'll see if he goes right back to having regularly scheduled services when he gets out.

If I were a neighbor watching my values drop in a BAD BAD market like Phoenix already is...I'd be just about at the end of my rope at this point, as I am sure they are down there. 5 years?? Really?? How long do you get to terrorize your neighborhood like that??
edit on 6-8-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 



Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Hmmm.... Pages and Pages make for solid links lost. If everyone backing this nutcase is fully aware of the ongoing war he's been having with his neighbors since 2007 and his history of lawsuits back and forth during that period of time, I'm wondering why the support is there. If not, this site has dozens and dozens of sourced and cited pieces of information on the whole sorted mess.

All the background and solid data one could ask for

I am totally shocked about Fox. I don't even recognize the story by the way they tell it right now and I literally did check addresses and names carefully earlier to be SURE there weren't two of these guys because Fox is portraying someone so totally different than the FACTS and the stories which have been coming out of Phoenix for years about this, have supported.

I don't know why this story and why right now...Media finally decide to back a Religious guy running a church (80 people 2-3 times a week isn't a casual prayer meeting...it's a small church). Maybe the fact he IS causing so much trouble with everyone living around him is why.... It's odd.
edit on 6-8-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)


Wrabbit, you and others on this thread need to be congratulated for Denying Ignorance! It took some digging, but you got to the Truth behind the yellow journalism headline.

The next step is to let Fox News know they can't get away with such lies.

I've read here how ATS threads/posts are all opinion, that one "do[es]n't have to prove anything on here people are free to beleive whatever the hell they want". No. ATS holds higher standards. In the end, posters might walk away with opinions unchanged, agreeing to disagree, but the idea here is to Deny Ignorance.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


While I don't agree that he's terrorizing anyone, since they're supposedly parking on his property, I have changed my mind about this after finding out that he filed for tax free status, and have changed my original post to reflect that.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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They are not communists, they are estimating your value in kidneys and similar... Watching to rob...
edit on 6-8-2012 by dragnik because: misstake




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