A logical deduction on how to live life (without bias or social constructs)...

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posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by openlocks
 


"since you exist and existence is you and existence exists as it is, then it only makes sense to exist as you are"

"then it only makes sense to exist as you are"

that is the problem,, there are so many details and causes and effects that goes into creating you as you are in every moment...

we all start out as babies,,,, should all babies continue to exist as they are? no they need to be programmed and grow strong to seek proper habits and stability... the programming of education and culture comes in many different forms,,,,, should terrorists continue to exist as they are ( our government doesnt think so)? a lot had to go into turning a baby into a terrorist,, an entire life is an attempt at being a stable, orderly system in a chaotic and variable filled world..




posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by openlocks
 


"since you exist and existence is you and existence exists as it is, then it only makes sense to exist as you are"

"then it only makes sense to exist as you are"

that is the problem,, there are so many details and causes and effects that goes into creating you as you are in every moment...

we all start out as babies,,,, should all babies continue to exist as they are? no they need to be programmed and grow strong to seek proper habits and stability... the programming of education and culture comes in many different forms,,,,, should terrorists continue to exist as they are ( our government doesnt think so)? a lot had to go into turning a baby into a terrorist,, an entire life is an attempt at being a stable, orderly system in a chaotic and variable filled world..


Okay, you're taking what I said way out of context though. At the very root of our cognitive processes, there is just the observation of existence; that we exist. Take all the conditioned; learned, knowledge/behavior away and there is just this observation of "I exist", or "I AM" as they say, with no qualities attached to that. All the conditioning is also a part of existence though too, as is all the changes. The concept of "should" isn't even applicable to a babies growth, or for that matter an adults growth/decay. It is just happening within the field of existence, as existence. Should a terrorist continue to be a terrorist? That is a question that can have many answers, all which are relative to a persons conditioning, place in that equation, insofar as many other circumstantial factors.

The point is, the attempt to become what you are not; the attempt to become what does not exist, is impossible, thus striving towards that can only create problems for you psychologically. Say I am violent, and I decide I want to become non-violent. Well that is impossible, I cannot become non-violent because that is just an idea, non-violence does not really exist but as a philosophical concept, only violence exists right now. However, if I recognize that I am violent and I also recognize that this is unacceptable behavior, that it hurts other people and I don't really want to hurt other people, then that change happens on its own accord without 'my' doing; violence is ended and no longer exists where as now non-violence is the reality, it now exists.

Hope that doesn't confuse you.



posted on Aug, 6 2012 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by openlocks
 


"since you exist and existence is you and existence exists as it is, then it only makes sense to exist as you are"

"then it only makes sense to exist as you are"

that is the problem,, there are so many details and causes and effects that goes into creating you as you are in every moment...

we all start out as babies,,,, should all babies continue to exist as they are? no they need to be programmed and grow strong to seek proper habits and stability... the programming of education and culture comes in many different forms,,,,, should terrorists continue to exist as they are ( our government doesnt think so)? a lot had to go into turning a baby into a terrorist,, an entire life is an attempt at being a stable, orderly system in a chaotic and variable filled world..


If there is a habit that they do not want - then yes. If there is a social construct that they do not want - then yes.

Turning a baby into a terrorist is done through illusions of FEAR saying that god will love you on the other side... not natural - not reality but a belief system...

When I say people should exist as they are, I mean that should be individuals, their own personality, not being trained into some belief system of fear.

"Fear" and "Group Thinking" is the reason WHY things such as that exist, have you not heard of the Milgram Experiment, where good people do bad things just because someone they see as an authority, says so?



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 10:06 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme

Ya see, this is where a lot of people would just accept this theory because 'some scientists' said so.
Energy is NOT conscious information. It takes energy to create the atoms, that create the physical material, that create machines (computers or brains), that can create conscious information. If we didn't need this process, then we wouldn't need computers. I could just send you information that would appear in mid air in front of you. Not gonna happen.


Energy is a wave/frequency/potential which HOLDS information. If it makes up heat, then it is thermal energy. If it makes up electricity, then it is electric energy. This is why I called it the smallest "bit" because it is needed to make up information. Energy is the wavering potential before it actually takes form.

Believe it or not, you have thought wave frequencies, too. So if one were good with picking up on this, theoretically, you should be able to just send information from your mind to another.



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by openlocks
 



"The point is, the attempt to become what you are not; the attempt to become what does not exist, is impossible, thus striving towards that can only create problems for you psychologically. Say I am violent, and I decide I want to become non-violent. Well that is impossible, I cannot become non-violent because that is just an idea, non-violence does not really exist but as a philosophical concept, only violence exists right now. However, if I recognize that I am violent and I also recognize that this is unacceptable behavior, that it hurts other people and I don't really want to hurt other people, then that change happens on its own accord without 'my' doing; violence is ended and no longer exists where as now non-violence is the reality, it now exists. "

nope doesnt confuse me,,, thanks for the response,,, and i get what your saying,..,,.
I dig alan watts and this is similar to things he would say,,,, but I view what you are saying about not being able to change oneself for the change we are talking about is a semantic deffinition of words change via philosophical concepts,,,, and i would say yes,,, but for conversation and talking about it we do compute actions and group things in terms of words,,, if someone were to say to a violent person,, you need to become non violent,,, that person would comprehend the definition of the term non- violent and make a choice weather or not they want to comply,.,.,.,. I understand what you mean there is just a base existence,, but that base existence is the power of will which decides what the vehicle of body will do day to day, minute to minute, second to second,,.,,
you say the attempt to become what is not or that which does not exist,,, i believe you are talking specifically about conceptual terms like you stated such as happiness or bliss,,, I.e. I desiree happiness,,, i need to do this this and this and then i will be happy,,, i do these things,, im not happy,,, maybe this will work,,, all along happiness is a state of mind ( balanced with external actions and reactions of course to a degree) but you would agree that an artist,,, or someone who is physically fit are defined concepts relating to observable things in reality that can be obtained by a person who was once not categorized in one of those concepts,,,, I dont know that we are arguing,, im certainly not,, just trying to understand what you were talking about,, and when I view interesting sentences with meaning I do like to dissect it and regurgitate it back at the provider along with questions just to create further clarity,,, it may seem argumentative but i am not trying to win anything,, hence why what I just wrote may make no sense and have little to do with what you were trying to get across,,,.



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Hey, no problem. I enjoy talking about these things. I think you do understand what I was saying. And it is somewhat semantics, but then again it is not. You are correct, we talk in terms of bringing the past into the present ("I really shouldn't have done that" where "I" is the present) and reaching out from the present into the future ("I really need to become more..." again "I" is the present). To argue from this reference point would be all semantics.

However, this also has "real world" applications. I want to become more physically fit... become more intelligent... become more tolerant... become less greedy/violent/jealous... on and on. Thus I will set a regiment plan to work towards these things. I will discipline myself and practice daily, all which creates stress and conflict within me. If this happened naturally, then I would have no need to try to become that, because I would just fall into that without effort. But because I cannot become anything unless I put blood, sweat and tears into it, it means that I must create inner turmoil/conflict and suffering for myself to achieve these things. What is the purpose then? I did this to better myself and how is creating problems for myself bettering myself?

It is not. So sooner or later I will realize it is not worth the suffering and I will give up. I will stop my raw food diet, stop working out everyday, stop reading book after book, stop going to therapy... I will just accept defeat and feel bad about being a failure. My point is, why even start this process at all? Why attempt to become anything if all it does is inflate our egos through pride of apparent success and makes us miserable through shame of apparent failure? It seems social conditioning has caused us all to have this picture of an "ideal self" in our minds, and we torment ourselves trying to become that "ideal self", something which never existed but as a mere social construct created by other people who have also bought into this illusory game.

This does not mean we just sit and stare at a wall now though, lol. That too would take a lot of effort, for most people. The point is, do you, in every sense of that phrase. I love studying things like psychology and philosophy, so I could read 5 books a month without exerting any effort and with no desire to become more intelligent. I love working out (lifting weights), a few times a week, so I do that without any effort or desire to become more fit. I love meditating, a few times a week, and so again I do that without any effort or regiment or discipline or desire to become "enlightened" or more tranquil. And yet, inadvertently, I am (apparently) becoming more intelligent (mabye lol), more fit, and more tranquil.

These things are just happening, not because I am attempting to become something I am not, but because I am all that I desire to be already! I am just allowing life to run its course. If a hardship comes up, I allow my life to adapt to that and conformity just happens. If it is too much to handle, I allow my life to adapt to that also and resistance just happens. Life is just happening, apparently, and to no one.
edit on 7-8-2012 by openlocks because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 02:53 AM
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reply to post by openlocks
 


"My point is, why even start this process at all? Why attempt to become anything if all it does is inflate our egos through pride of apparent success and makes us miserable through shame of apparent failure? It seems social conditioning has caused us all to have this picture of an "ideal self" in our minds, and we torment ourselves trying to become that "ideal self", something which never existed but as a mere social construct created by other people who have also bought into this illusory game"

you may struggle with these things,, but dont project that on to other people,.,,. everything about that is over complicating it or complicating it at all,,.,. people think being physically fit is important,,, its a yes or no thing,,, yes they value it highly,,, they will work out,,, people desiree a better job to provide for their family,, they will go to school and get a higher education,,.,.,.. most people live fine lives doing things their own way and living with and as themselves,,, I know I know I know,,,, I know what you mean and meant,,,



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Humans think they have to become - when they are already.
The 'wanting' to become causes suffering. Being does not suffer.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by openlocks
 


"My point is, why even start this process at all? Why attempt to become anything if all it does is inflate our egos through pride of apparent success and makes us miserable through shame of apparent failure? It seems social conditioning has caused us all to have this picture of an "ideal self" in our minds, and we torment ourselves trying to become that "ideal self", something which never existed but as a mere social construct created by other people who have also bought into this illusory game"

you may struggle with these things,, but dont project that on to other people,.,,. everything about that is over complicating it or complicating it at all,,.,. people think being physically fit is important,,, its a yes or no thing,,, yes they value it highly,,, they will work out,,, people desiree a better job to provide for their family,, they will go to school and get a higher education,,.,.,.. most people live fine lives doing things their own way and living with and as themselves,,, I know I know I know,,,, I know what you mean and meant,,,


No actually I think you misunderstood me. Read it again. I didn't project anything on to anyone. Everything you said I am in agreement with. People can do whatever they want, in their own way. In fact, that is the only way they can do it. That is my whole point. That is what I meant when I said, "do you, in every sense of the phrase".

Not really sure what happened, or why you got frustrated, but I hope you have a good day.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Humans think they have to become - when they are already.
The 'wanting' to become causes suffering. Being does not suffer.


Exactly! The wanting to become causes all sorts of psychological conflicts, anxiety, fear, worry, anger, confusion... because you are attempting to achieve the impossible, separate yourself from that which is. Whatever happens will happen, without "your" (ego) 'doing'. You are life and life is happening, apparently.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Humans think they have to become - when they are already.
The 'wanting' to become causes suffering. Being does not suffer.


you are incorrect and its because you are only viewing the meaning of words deffinitions in a small moment of time sitting at a computer and not the ebb and flow of actual physical existence.,,.,all that goes into day to day life, a functioning family and society,,.,.,.

a child has to become an adult for an adult to "just be"...,,. there are a lot of seconds in that time period,,, which can be used in many different ways.,.,. what you are suggesting is in order to not suffer do the bare minumum so then you will never be let down when you attempt to accomplish something and fail,,, the monks and deer do this and that is very well,, is see nothing wrong with that,, its great,,, but the modern, industrialized, applied information and skill nations do not see the same way,,, the entire system is built off the opposite of what you are saying,.,.,.., you can argue about the way of the people and the system.,. but most people are happy working their butts of at their trade to provide comfortable and convenient, entertainment filled lives for themselves and their family,.,.,.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 01:31 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


To be or not to be? That is the question.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


To be or not to be? That is the question.



If you are, why not be? that is my question,,, All that be's eventually be's not,,, eventually not being as you are is guaranteed,, why not be?



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


To be or not to be? That is the question.



If you are, why not be? that is my question,,, All that be's eventually be's not,,, eventually not being as you are is guaranteed,, why not be?


I am!!
I exist.
Being does not have to become.
Being IS.

edit on 9-8-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 03:00 AM
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reply to post by openlocks
 


You might appreciate this talk by Nathan Gill which sums up what you say:
youtu.be...

Mind blowing stuff.
edit on 9-8-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 03:35 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Being is constant becoming



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 03:43 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


There is only this.
And this does not have to become - it is.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Being is constant becoming


When will you be complete?



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 04:06 AM
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I started out responding to each of your questions separately but you really have too many problems with your logic here.

For one, "worthiness"? Who judges worthiness? What are the moral principles used in this determination?

What does the term "to live" mean for you?? People could agree with that statement, and yet be refering to a totally different idea
-like that "living" means to experience something other than that calm essence- to feel MOVEMENT, FRICTION, CONTRAST... all that is available to experience in a dimension of duality and physicality. That would be a "yes" to your question, but in total opposition to the rest of your assertions and conclusions.

I think you need to work on your philosophical position a bit more to make it coherent for others.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


There is only this.
And this does not have to become - it is.


but this is always changing,, things become into being that once were not, at all times, always,,..,





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