Lucifer and the Masonic Lie of Theosophy

Originally posted by Dreine

I think Benjamin Franklin said it best.

"God helps those who help themselves."

We should constantly be trying to better ourselves. To think we cannot improve is either extreme hubris or laziness.

Yeah, but you can't listen to him, he was a Mason.

LMAO!!!!

Originally posted by ISHAMAGI
reply to post by Valhall

 

I do not believe in duality on a spiritual level yes in the pure sense. The Bible illustrates duality for us here.

Duality does and must exist in this material universe it is the backbone. It is the squared circle. It is the X & Y chromosome. The hate for the love and the indifference for the concern. Our language direction etc. Is based around this concept. In the most basic sense earth is a school to learn balance and see through this paradox even as one is immersed in it.

Valhall basically said what i believe already in there response to you in terms of duality, but to add i don't think we need evil or hate in this world just the opposite we should strive for non balance in this particular concept of balance, is there good and bad on this earth, unfortunately yes but i don't think there existing on the same plane as a ying and yang theological aspect but rather two diffferent things existing on there own plane.

Originally posted by Agoyahtah

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Freemasons that are Christian do not deny Christ. In fact, there are many fine devout Christians who are in the Masons. Freemasonry as an organization is not anti-Christian.

Am I to assume you are against knowledge, enlightenment? To me, an enlightened mind is the mind for God.

How can there really be any Christian Freemasons?

A Christian who has faith in Jesus, is already saved, and has no need to "improve himself" by joining Freemasonry.

How can Freemasonry make a Good Christian better?

This is logically impossible.

Not by works are Christians improved, but by the Grace of the Lord.

There's nothing a man can do to elevate himself.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
== KJV Ephesians 2:8 bible.cc...

Therefore, Freemasonry's claim to "make good men better" can only apply to non-Christians.

What then are Christians doing in Freemasonry?

Are they "teaching" other Freemasons how to find the Lord?

Wow. I guess you have got it made in the shade. Went and got saved, and now you just sit on your ass, eat grapes, and wait for the rapture. What a life.

Thanks, but I'll take the life of trying to help my fellow man instead of laughing at him when he falls.
But congratulations on being one of the chosen.



edit to add:
Just for the record, we don't try to be better men for any reward, or get into heaven free card, we do it because it's the right thing to do.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

There are three states of truth. Pure truth, false truth and mixed truth. False is easy to see. Mixed is hard to spot unless you know pure truth at the root. All religions are one of these. The root is found in the Bible.

So then by your analogy all religions save yours is wrong and satanic, is that what you are saying here? Sorry to burst your little bubble here, but the Bible is not the Root Story, the Root Story is much older than that, some 3800 years before, in Ancient Sumeria,
such as "The Enuma Elish." (The Epic of Creation) and "The Code of Hammurabi," along with "The Babylonian Story of the Deluge and the Epic of Gilgamesh." All predate the Bible by many years.

Originally posted by network dude
Wow. I guess you have got it made in the shade. Went and got saved, and now you just sit on your ass, eat grapes, and wait for the rapture. What a life.

Pretty much. That's one way to look at things. I do my will. Whatever captivates my interest at the moment, like posting things on ATS whenever I feel like it. Tis the work of my own hands..

Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

KJV Ecclesiastes 3:22

Everything else is imagination.

Thanks, but I'll take the life of trying to help my fellow man instead of laughing at him when he falls.
But congratulations on being one of the chosen.

I was talking about "improving yourself", which you cannot do. You can, howver, lift up a fellow man who has fallen to the ground, just stretch out your hand.

Just for the record, we don't try to be better men for any reward, or get into heaven free card, we do it because it's the right thing to do.

That's fine. I don't know how you are able to decide which is the "right" action. The Lord set up the world with rewards and punishments to guide men through "feedback" that they might know which is right and which is wrong. So, if rewards are ignored, then one could very well end up taking all those actions that lead to punishments instead. One could still "think" they are the right things to do, even though they result in punishments, because one's idea about right is disconnected from reward.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

There are three states of truth. Pure truth, false truth and mixed truth. False is easy to see. Mixed is hard to spot unless you know pure truth at the root. All religions are one of these. The root is found in the Bible.

So then by your analogy all religions save yours is wrong and satanic, is that what you are saying here? Sorry to burst your little bubble here, but the Bible is not the Root Story, the Root Story is much older than that, some 3800 years before, in Ancient Sumeria,
such as "The Enuma Elish." (The Epic of Creation) and "The Code of Hammurabi," along with "The Babylonian Story of the Deluge and the Epic of Gilgamesh." All predate the Bible by many years.

There is only one religion and it is defined in James 4.

27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

1) Look after orphans. The Masons do this. I assume that operation does what it claims. Orphan Annie may reflect a different story. It all depends on Daddy Warbucks and his intentions. If he is willing to fund both sides of a war to create those orphans, we need to question why he wants an orphan in the first place. Most people don't know the significance in the Orphan Annie cartoons. Care to elaborate? Here's a link: LINK

2) Look after widows. The orphans and widows are mostly casualties of war and Daddy Warbucks is right there making his money by funding both sides.

3) Keep oneself from being polluted by the world. This is not a hard one to spot. Giving must come from a will to give only. The will to take makes us a thief. Theosophy, Theurgy and the manipulation of law is the work of the will to take.

None of us can claim to be free from sin. We are all thieves participating in this massive error of mankind. Just don't expect me to celebrate the fact. I am trying to move myself as close to the goal as possible. Jesus is the one that taught us how. It's the Cornerstone of the Christian faith. All religions and ideologies will be judged by this law of love for others.

If you expect me to be nice about what the Builders have created for us in this world, you won't find that nice word from me. Not only this, but I condemn myself openly as part of the problem. We must all do this in the end. After confession comes repentance and turning toward the answer. Bearing fruit then appears as the byproduct, but not until.

Many expressions of faith already know these truths, but Christ is the reason we know.

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
True followers of Jesus cannot improve further...

I am quite certain the Westboro Baptist Church members will say that you need to improve further and be more like them.

I find your comments odd regardless. Are you saying that 'true followers of Jesus' are somehow perfect and can never improve in anyway?

reply to post by Agoyahtah

There are plenty of Christian Freemasons who are strong in both their Faith, their lives, and in Masonry. Freemasonry isn't dealing with salvation, we're talking enlightenment. Just having faith doesn't give you any intelligence. There is always one can improve himself while on this Earth, learn new skills and take in new information. Also, the Bible says one needs works and faith to be saved. I hate the cop out that some Christians use, "I can commit crimes all day long, but I'm saved because I believe in Christ". I hate to bust your bubble, but you're only human, you're not perfect and everyone needs improvement.

Freemasonry teaches us lessons, but it is for the individual to make himself better.

Not by works are Christians improved, but by the Grace of the Lord.

You should really read your Bible more often:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
- James 2:17-18

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
- James 2:24

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
- James 2:26

Those who do no good works do not have a legitimate faith in Christ. Those who have true faith will constantly seek to better himself. An enlightened mind is a mind for God, not an ignorant one. You make the rest of us Christians look bad.

There's nothing a man can do to elevate himself.

The motto of the ignorant. I don't just strive the minimums or mediocrity, I constantly strive to exceeding the standards in life.

What then are Christians doing in Freemasonry?

Plenty of things. I'm particularly fond of the Masonic Knights Templar in the York Rite.

Are they "teaching" other Freemasons how to find the Lord?

By our actions. The Lodge is not a place for proselytizing.

Originally posted by Dreine
I think Benjamin Franklin said it best.

"God helps those who help themselves."

Well said.

Originally posted by Dreine
We should constantly be trying to better ourselves. To think we cannot improve is either extreme hubris or laziness.

I think with some, it's both.

reply to post by Agoyahtah

If you don't think there is anything wrong with the Westboro Baptist Church, you need some help and are not a true Christian.

reply to post by Agoyahtah

I believe the Bible speaks against slothfulness. I guess you're okay with giving the Lord only the minimum amount of effort.

I was talking about "improving yourself", which you cannot do. You can, howver, lift up a fellow man who has fallen to the ground, just stretch out your hand.

So you can help others, but not yourself? How does that logic work in your mind? One can improve himself, particularly since I believe that God will assist me in my endeavors.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
True followers of Jesus cannot improve further...

I am quite certain the Westboro Baptist Church members will say that you need to improve further and be more like them.

I find your comments odd regardless. Are you saying that 'true followers of Jesus' are somehow perfect and can never improve in anyway?

You cannot improve on what God has made:

I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. KJV Ecclesiastes 1:14

That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered. KJV Ecclesiastes 1:15

All attempts to improve is "vanity" and "vexation of spirit".

This is the true Christianity.

It does not say that men are "perfect" as they are, just that they cannot fix their imperfections themselves.It is a vain thought to think that man can correct what God made deliberately crooked.

God, however, can make man perfect, even if he originally made him crooked to start with,

Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. KJV Isaiah| 5:5

Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. KJV Isaiah 35:6

as Jesus demonstrates:

And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us. KJV Matthew 9:27

And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. KJV Matthew 9:28

Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. KJV Matthew 9:29

And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it. KJV Matthew 9:30

so, the Lord is able to correct the crooked, like making the blind see, but the blind men cannot improve themselves, to make themselves see on their own. By their own efforts, they get nowhere.

Originally posted by KSigMason

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
- James 2:17-18

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
- James 2:24

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
- James 2:26

I know there is a lot of confusion about these quotes. Because people do not understand clearly what they say.

These verses in the bible do not suggest that "by works" one can achieve salvation. What they really say, is that those who "are saved" will automatically demonstrate their new condition by the "works" that they will do, having been saved. Therefore, by "their works" you will know them. But, you can't work to become one of them.

First you get saved, then you exhibit works.

Moreover, the work does not appear as real work to you when you are saved, it's just a joy to be doing these things. You, the saved person, do not realize you are working at all. There is no effort involved. But, all non-saved persons looking at your work will perceive it as real work, requiring real effort, because to them, if they try to do what you are doing, they would "feel it" as working hard to achieve the goal.

Those who do no good works do not have a legitimate faith in Christ.

This is true, but only Christ knows what good works a man has done. True Christians do not judge that because they do not have all the information on each man necessary to make the judgment. They simply don't know.

Those who have true faith will constantly seek to better himself.

No. True faith means accepting oneself, being as you are, and not trying to be something else. We in society are always looking at other people and judging them and attempting to imitate them, in the belief that somehow it is better to be as they are than to be as we are our self. But, then who imitates us?

An enlightened mind is a mind for God, not an ignorant one. You make the rest of us Christians look bad.

God put the light in, and takes the light out.

For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. KJV Luke 21:15

All men do is engage in vain thought that they can somehow enlighten themselves. What is the art and skill that can accomplish this? As Jesus said, a man can't even add one measure to his stature, how then can he enlighten himself?

And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? KJV Luke 12:25

If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? KJV Luke 12:26

If man is unable to accomplish such small tasks by "thought", how can he achieve such a grand goal like "enlightenment"?

It's all vanity.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

There is only one religion and it is defined in James 4.

Are you sure there is only just one religion in the entire world?

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.5 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand

www.adherents.com...

These are all established religions, most with millions of followers. How can you say there is only one?

Religion is not an association of people. Religion is what that association produces. A farmer is simply a farmer. The crop is what sets them apart.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

There is only one religion and it is defined in James 4.

Are you sure there is only just one religion in the entire world?

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.5 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand

www.adherents.com...

These are all established religions, most with millions of followers. How can you say there is only one?

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
You cannot improve on what God has made:

That is seriously comical.

You are born without much muscle tone and will never develop it without exercise later in life. By proscribing to a simple regimen you can improve upon the poor physique you would have had if you had done nothing. Excercise keeps you healthy and improves your life.

Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. KJV Isaiah 35:6

so, the Lord is able to correct the crooked, like making the blind see, but the blind men cannot improve themselves, to make themselves see on their own. By their own efforts, they get nowhere.

I am glad you think Jesus the Magician can cure people with his supernatural skills, I tend to think otherwise.

The blind can be made to see and the crooked 'corrected' by others who have improved themselves with knowledge and learning. They have undone the physical imperfections of others through their own improvements.

Originally posted by rainbowbear
yes but A pike is defiantly well liked among the SR-SJ--
he killed many redskins in the indian wars.

You seem a bit confused. Pike was on the same side as the Indians, and they made him an Honorary Chief. He eventually resigned his position as a general in the Confederate army in protest against the Confederacy breaking its treaty with the Indians.

I think one of his best novels was, oh--Morals and Dogma?

do you have your copy handy?

Do you? Because if you crack it open, you'll see that it's not a novel.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Yes. I assume that Pike may have learned something by the end of his life. He spoke of releasing prejudice and vice often.

""blind Force of the people is a Force that must be economized, and also managed. . . it must be regulated by intellect. "To attack the citadels (Institutions) built up on all sides against the human race by superstitions (religion), despotisms, and prejudices, the force must have a brain and a law (the Illuminati's). Then its (Force) deeds of daring produce permanent results, and there is real progress. Then there are sublime conquests. . . When all forces combined, and guided by the Intellect (Illuminati), and regulated by the Rule of Right, and Justice, and of combined and systematic movement and effort, the great revolution prepared for the ages will begin to march." LINK

He was strong in his convictions, but he was placing man as the top of the pyramid. Jesus is the Capstone.

I think I hear the feet marching now, straight to a wall called Truth.

Masonry is not "speculative," nor theoretical, but experimental; not sentimental, but practical. It requires self-renunciation and self-control. It wears a stern face toward men's vices, and interferes with many of our pursuits and our fancied pleasures. It penetrates beyond the region of vague sentiment; beyond the regions where moralizers and philosophers have woven their fine theories and elaborated their beautiful maxims, to the very depths of the heart, rebuking our littlenesses and meannesses, arraigning our prejudices and passions, and warring against the armies of our vices.

It wars against the passions that spring out of the bosom of a world of fine sentiments, a world of admirable sayings and foul practices, of good maxims and bad deeds; whose darker passions are not only restrained by custom and ceremony, but hidden even from itself by a veil of beautiful sentiments. This terrible solecism has existed in all ages. Romish sentimentalism has often covered infidelity and vice; Protestant straightness often lauds spirituality and faith, and neglects homely truth, candor, and generosity; and ultra-liberal Rationalistic refinement sometimes soars to heaven in its dreams, and wallows in the mire of earth in its deeds.

There may be a world of Masonic sentiment; and yet a world of little or no Masonry. In many minds there is a vague and general sentiment of Masonic charity, generosity, and disinterestedness, but no practical, active virtue, nor habitual kindness, self-sacrifice, or liberality. Masonry plays about them like the cold though brilliant lights that flush and eddy over Northern skies. There are occasional flashes of generous and manly feeling, transitory splendors, and momentary gleams of just and noble thought, and transient coruscations, that light the Heaven of their imagination; but there is no vital warmth in the heart; and it remains as cold and sterile as the Arctic or Antarctic regions. They do nothing; they gain no victories over themselves; they make no progress; they are still in the Northeast corner of the Lodge, as when they first stood there as Apprentices; and they do not cultivate Masonry, with a cultivation, determined, resolute, and regular, like their cultivation of their estate, profession, or knowledge. Their Masonry takes its chance in general and inefficient sentiment, mournfully barren of results; in words and formulas and fine professions.

Most men have sentiments, but not principles. The former are temporary sensations, the latter permanent and controlling impressions of goodness and virtue. The former are general and involuntary, and do not rise to the character of virtue. Every one feels them. They flash up spontaneously in every heart. The latter are rules of action, and shape and control our conduct; and it is these that Masonry insists upon.

We approve the right; but pursue the wrong. It is the old story of human deficiency. No one abets or praises injustice, fraud, oppression, covetousness, revenge, envy, or slander; and yet how many who condemn these things, are themselves guilty of them. It is no rare thing for him whose indignation is kindled at a tale of wicked injustice, cruel oppression, base slander, or misery inflicted by unbridled indulgence; whose anger flames in behalf of the injured and ruined victims of wrong; to be in some relation unjust, or oppressive, or envious, or self-indulgent, or a careless talker of others. How wonderfully indignant the penurious man often is, at the avarice or want of public spirit of another!

Morals & Dogma, Ch. IX, pp150-151

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
I think I hear the feet marching now, straight to a wall called Truth.

We do not undervalue the importance of any Truth. We utter no word that can be deemed irreverent by any one of any faith. We do not tell the Moslem that it is only important for him to believe that there is but one God, and wholly unessential whether Mahomet was His prophet. We do not tell the Hebrew that the Messiah whom he expects was born in Bethlehem nearly two thousand years ago; and that he is a heretic because he will not so believe. And as little do we tell the sincere Christian that Jesus of Nazareth was but a man like us, or His history but the unreal revival of an older legend. To do either is beyond our jurisdiction. Masonry, of no one age, belongs to all time; of no one religion, it finds its great truths in all.

To every Mason, there is a GOD; ONE, Supreme, Infinite in Goodness, Wisdom, Foresight, Justice, and Benevolence; Creator, Disposer, and Preserver of all things. How, or by what intermediates He creates and acts, and in what way He unfolds and manifests Himself, Masonry leaves to creeds and Religions to inquire.

To every Mason, the soul of man is immortal. Whether it emanates from and will return to God, and what its continued mode of existence hereafter, each judges for himself. Masonry was not made to settle that.

Morals & Dogma, Ch. XXVI, p525

A man's Faith is as much his own as his Reason is. His Freedom consists as much in his faith being free as in his will being uncontrolled by power. All the Priests and Augurs of Rome or Greece had not the right to require Cicero or Socrates to believe in the absurd mythology of the vulgar. All the Imaums of Mohammedanism have not the right to require a Pagan to believe that Gabriel dictated the Koran to the Prophet. All the Brahmins that ever lived, if assembled in one conclave like the Cardinals, could not gain a right to compel a single human being to believe in the Hindu Cosmogony. No man or body of men can be infallible, and authorized to decide what other men shall believe, as to any tenet of faith. Except to those who first receive it, every religion and the truth of all inspired writings depend on human testimony and internal evidences, to be judged of by Reason and the wise analogies of Faith. Each man must necessarily have the right to judge of their truth for himself; because no one man can have any higher or better right to judge than another of equal information and intelligence.

Morals & Dogma, Ch. II, p 30

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
You cannot improve on what God has made:

That is seriously comical.

It's comical to you because men make "changes" and call them improvements. They then get other men to follow them, copy their "changes", and imagine that they are therefore improved by this.

Michael Jackson had many natural talents, but still came under the influence of society's idea of what is better, so he had an operation to change his nose, and lighten his skin. He felt these things were "improvements", because they were promoted that way in the society he lived. They were just "changes", however. He was simply confused. Poor fella, he had no one to tell him what was right, and where to look for comfort.

You are born without much muscle tone and will never develop it without exercise later in life. By proscribing to a simple regimen you can improve upon the poor physique you would have had if you had done nothing. Excercise keeps you healthy and improves your life.

Again, you can make "changes", like Arnold Schwarzenegger, you can build up your body, with the help of steroids, and look completely different from what you would have been. But it is only society that praises this "change" and calls it "improvement."

I am glad you think Jesus the Magician can cure people with his supernatural skills, I tend to think otherwise.

Jesus said it was not his supernatural power, but the power of the Father working through him. He credited all these things to the one God.

The blind can be made to see and the crooked 'corrected' by others who have improved themselves with knowledge and learning. They have undone the physical imperfections of others through their own improvements.

Again, medical science has introduced many changes. Artificial limbs give people more options. The blind cannot see yet, but can use equipment to help move around their environment more efficiently. Society calls all these things improvements, and the companies that build all this stuff make great profits because people believe their life is improved. We might even be able to slow down the aging process sometime in the future, and live longer lives. But, at the end of all this activity, death comes, the body returns to dust, and all the "activity" and "changes" are seen as just "vanity".

Originally posted by Agoyahtah

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
You cannot improve on what God has made:

That is seriously comical.

It's comical to you because men make "changes" and call them improvements. They then get other men to follow them, copy their "changes", and imagine that they are therefore improved by this.

Michael Jackson had many natural talents, but still came under the influence of society's idea of what is better, so he had an operation to change his nose, and lighten his skin. He felt these things were "improvements", because they were promoted that way in the society he lived. They were just "changes", however. He was simply confused. Poor fella, he had no one to tell him what was right, and where to look for comfort.

You are born without much muscle tone and will never develop it without exercise later in life. By proscribing to a simple regimen you can improve upon the poor physique you would have had if you had done nothing. Excercise keeps you healthy and improves your life.

Again, you can make "changes", like Arnold Schwarzenegger, you can build up your body, with the help of steroids, and look completely different from what you would have been. But it is only society that praises this "change" and calls it "improvement."

I am glad you think Jesus the Magician can cure people with his supernatural skills, I tend to think otherwise.

Jesus said it was not his supernatural power, but the power of the Father working through him. He credited all these things to the one God.

The blind can be made to see and the crooked 'corrected' by others who have improved themselves with knowledge and learning. They have undone the physical imperfections of others through their own improvements.

Again, medical science has introduced many changes. Artificial limbs give people more options. The blind cannot see yet, but can use equipment to help move around their environment more efficiently. Society calls all these things improvements, and the companies that build all this stuff make great profits because people believe their life is improved. We might even be able to slow down the aging process sometime in the future, and live longer lives. But, at the end of all this activity, death comes, the body returns to dust, and all the "activity" and "changes" are seen as just "vanity".

edit on 10-8-2012 by Agoyahtah because: (no reason given)

So are you suggesting that any attempt we make to improve our lives or those of others... say, that Marine vet that had his leg blown off in Iraq who now has a prostethic leg to help him walk... is all for the sake of vanity?

How about the computer you are using? Doesn't it make our lives better by compiling and storing large amounts of data? If so, then technology, also, is vanity.

If you want to live in a hut near a rock, so be it. We are given the ability to do wonderful things... to not do them would be a disservice to the Creator who gave us those abilities.

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
You cannot improve on what God has made:

LOL...there are plenty of "christians" that I would say are in need of plenty of improvement. Plus, when we are born or even at baptized, depending on age, we still have plenty improvements to made. You had to learn how to read, how to write, and other subjects (mathematics, various sciences, etc.), unless you're going to tell me you knew how to do everything from birth without any instruction.

This is the true Christianity.

Christianity is not about mediocrity nor just meeting the minimums. I plan on excelling in the name of Christ. I mean, do you plan on standing before Him and saying "I did the bare minimum you asked of me."?

Not everyone who needs improvement is made "crooked" by God. Most come into this world a blank slate.

There is a difference between improving some things such as enlightenment and skills that an individual has control over, and overcoming physical ailments one has no control over. Plus, medical science has improved, many things can be made straight. I mean, with your line of thinking, we'd still be back in the Dark Ages thinking the world was flat. We'd live in a world of perpetual ignorance and stupidity.

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
I know there is a lot of confusion about these quotes. Because people do not understand clearly what they say.

Well, if you had quoted me properly you would realize what I discussed about these quotes, plus these quotes are pretty straightforward in their meaning.

These verses in the bible do not suggest that "by works" one can achieve salvation.

I didn't say that. I said one needs BOTH. Maybe you if you actually read my posts you'd see that.

Moreover, the work does not appear as real work to you when you are saved, it's just a joy to be doing these things.

This is something discussed in Freemasonry, particularly with 1 Corinthians, Chapter 13. Charity and works should be selfless and if you are true in your heart, it won't be a chore.

For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. KJV Luke 21:15

Well then, God didn't give it to you as I am easily resisting your push for mediocrity and ignorance.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

By his logic, I wouldn't have received glasses and later LASIK to fix my eye problems and gone through life legally blind. Or that I should have stayed crippled after I broke my left arm.

reply to post by Agoyahtah

No you're jumping to some strange extremes. Not everyone who is improving themselves is not getting plastic surgery or using steroids in building their muscular strength.

Again, medical science has introduced many changes. Artificial limbs give people more options. The blind cannot see yet, but can use equipment to help move around their environment more efficiently. Society calls all these things improvements, and the companies that build all this stuff make great profits because people believe their life is improved. We might even be able to slow down the aging process sometime in the future, and live longer lives. But, at the end of all this activity, death comes, the body returns to dust, and all the "activity" and "changes" are seen as just "vanity".

Actually you should research the occular advances we have today. If they have something or fixed something previously wrong, is that not an improvement? Yes, we're all heading towards the grave, but these improvements can assist us now on this plane and in the Hereafter.