Do We In America Really Want Females Killing and Spying by Remote Control?

reply to post by Expat888


Medics first duty is to suppress the enemy so that care can be provided in a safe manner.

This post is further example of how little people understand the military and how it performs its job.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Expat888

 

Medics first duty is to suppress the enemy so that care can be provided in a safe manner.

This post is further example of how little people understand the military and how it performs its job.

then things have changed a hell of alot more than I thought in the military since the 60's when did my time ... good day end of ...

Here is one for you. How many men would have this kind of follow through?
Zina Portnova: Teenage female warrior awarded the Soviet Unions highest decoration, "Hero of the Soviet Union".

reply to post by Expat888


Really? Medics are armed for a reason. Alot of things have changed in terms of battlefield doctrine since the 60s.

Medics are combat troops. The 68W MOS is one of the hardest MOSs in the Army and it is so for a reason. You can't effectively treat people under fire.

Here read this:

Tactical Combat Casualty Care

This is not just a doctrine for 68W combat medic it's also the training doctrine for CLS certified personnel like myself.

Originally posted by beezzer
Kill someone, then make me a sammich!!!

Drones should be outlawed, period.

There'd probably be less killing if it weren't so impersonal.

And I serve with a number of brave and noble women warriors.

My thoughts.

beez

I agree - since the advent of more impersonal means of dealing mass destruction killing is something that is less thought out.

I am guilty of this I admit. I was a SF Team leader and as a Company Commander in charge of a small FOB in Afghanistan. In my career I have never hesitated to kill when it was me or the other guy situation. However, I did feel a twinge of guilt when I needed to call in an air strike or use artillery support. The sheer death toll sometimes was a heavy burden. Sometimes headcounts of 20-30 people. Sometimes collateral damage as well - not very often but more often than I feel good about.

I know I deliberated perhaps sometimes more than I should have when calling in one of these destructive assets; however, that I think was because I knew that tomorrow I had to go walk the terrain with my operators and view the results first hand. I also knew I had to interact with the village elders and the grieving wives and mothers. The strategic leaders have none of that burden.

I never had access to an armed drone those are theater or higher assets. The problem with these drones is a balancing act.

1) They are assets used at the strategic level and therefore the person giving the order will hardly ever see the results first hand. A leader should have to view the affects of his decisions first hand so he is not so eager or quick to over react with unneeded force.

2) They do save American lives - what once world have been an on call direct action mission for a team of operators, say taking out an HVT or a person if interest. There was always a delay in execution that allowed the targets to sometimes get away to prepare for the assault. However, now we can see the target in real time and the leader (a senior one maybe even the POTUS himself) can give the order quickly. There is a real advantage to that.

With regard to women - I have worked with some good ones and bad ones. Just like male Soldiers. I can honestly say though when a woman is introduced to a team working in combat there is more often than not an issue that arises involving sex. Combat is stressful - sex is a stress release mechanism. That is human nature. This usually involves adultery on at least one person’s part and then the resultant jealousy of the other members as "they are not getting any".

While I think there is a role for women in the military and I think operating these drones is a great one as it can be done in an environment of mixed personnel and not under austere conditions. A combat operation in mostly male units unfortunately is not one of them. I have met plenty of females who could do the job don't get me wrong but it my experience it just creates a leadership challenge that amplifies the already stressful conditions of combat operations.

Why make something that is hard, and stressful for people more so to satisfy the desire of a fringe population of females who want to be rambo? There are some special mission units with positions for women that are very difficult and chalenging right up there with SF work.

reply to post by juniperberry


To add on to your statement:

All first world countries, successful countries, have one thing in common:

There is more equality between men and women.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Expat888

 

Really? Medics are armed for a reason. Alot of things have changed in terms of battlefield doctrine since the 60s.

Medics are combat troops. The 68W MOS is one of the hardest MOSs in the Army and it is so for a reason. You can't effectively treat people under fire.

Here read this:

Tactical Combat Casualty Care

This is not just a doctrine for 68W combat medic it's also the training doctrine for CLS certified personnel like myself.

edit on 4-8-2012 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

In the interest of fairness I just want to interject that medics and medical personnel always have the option to receive their non-combatant card if they so choose. If they carry a rifle they can't carry the card. It's just an additional card that identifies them as medical personnel which means that should they be captured under the convention they are not to be used for manual labor but must be allowed to practice their trade.

In this case they are not given a rifle they have a personal side arm and are then afforded the non-combatant status under the convention. While they always have the option of self protection once they pick up a combat weapon and engage the enemy they lose their protected status.

Personally, in 24 years the first few in a Ranger Battalion I only met one combat medic who took that option. Good guy and a damn good medic just believed in old school medics. SF guys for obvious reasons are not given this option.

The whole thing is basically moot in a low intensity conflict or counter-insurgency as our enemies are not signatories and a medic is as likely to be beheaded on camera as anyone else.

By the way, to help you with your ignorance problem. women have always been spies:

Women have been spies since the Revolution. they would be placed in soldier's camps to gather information.

Some of the most successful and infamous spies in the US have been female.

Women have always been in war in some form or another, IN wars such as the Revolution or the Civil war, women had to defend the estates. They had to run the estates, run the businesses, run the farm, all while raising and educating children.

When there was a Catholic uprisin in the Maryland Colony, a woman named Margaret Bent gathered soldiers to quelch the uprising. She was then awarded the estate of Governor Calvert so she could pay the soldiers. She saved the Maryland colony.

Anne Baily was a colonist who was a scout, huntsman, and accomplished horserider, when her fort was under attack by Indians, she rode over 100 miles in wilderness to another fort to retrieve much needed gunpowder.

Stonewall Jackson made Bell Harding an honorary captain in the confederate army for her work as a courier and a scout.

If you were not so entrenched in your very misguided stereotype, you would know that women have always been involved in war.

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe

Originally posted by LastProphet527
reply to post by Vitruvian

 

I honestly do not think so, that is what is wrong with woman now, they do not no their place in life. They need to cook for our troops and make the bunks up, anything else is uncivilized

You can not be serious... Should we shut up and walk around pregnant once a year as well?

A woman should never bare the responsibility of the atrocities of a mans war. Woman shouldn’t have to lose there souls over lies and wars over mans ideology of race creed or color. Woman should be cutting potatoes ,making the bunks up ,using computers to help the men to win the war, but to have a woman kill ,is totally uncivilized to me and the universe.

Woman are the most important species to us and the universe, we do not except this what so ever.

reply to post by Golf66


Indeed. But by and large, as you also pointed out, this is not the majority of 68W out there. The MOS itself emphasizes combat readiness as most medics will be attached to infantry units. The rest usually go to flight units.

reply to post by projectvxn


Medics used to have bulls-eyes painted on their helmets......

Really, I would expect people to actually learn their history.

During World War II a wounded soldier had an 85% chance of surviving if he was treated by a medic within the first hour. This figure was three times higher than World War I survival statistics. The red cross worn by medics on their helmet and arm bands became visible targets for enemy snipers during World War II and Korea.

Medics, A Brief History


To Op:

20000 drones, in our own sky's, is enough to make me angry. If we were protecting our borders "only" with these tools, I would be more obliged and open to it. Unfortunately, we have opened the door to Tyranny, and have allowed "kill lists" to encompass protecting a Nation. That scares the hell out of me, regardless if its a woman, man, or machine, at the controls......MHO

reply to post by Vitruvian


/facepalm

You know men work drones, too, right?

Idiot.

Originally posted by LastProphet527

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe

Originally posted by LastProphet527
reply to post by Vitruvian

 

I honestly do not think so, that is what is wrong with woman now, they do not no their place in life. They need to cook for our troops and make the bunks up, anything else is uncivilized

You can not be serious... Should we shut up and walk around pregnant once a year as well?

A woman should never bare the responsibility of the atrocities of a mans war. Woman shouldn’t have to lose there souls over lies and wars over mans ideology of race creed or color. Woman should be cutting potatoes ,making the bunks up ,using computers to help the men to win the war, but to have a woman kill ,is totally uncivilized to me and the universe.

Woman are the most important species to us and the universe, we do not except this what so ever.

Good thing you don't get to make the rules, and most of America disagrees with you.

Originally posted by thegagefather

Originally posted by LastProphet527

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe

Originally posted by LastProphet527
reply to post by Vitruvian

 

I honestly do not think so, that is what is wrong with woman now, they do not no their place in life. They need to cook for our troops and make the bunks up, anything else is uncivilized

You can not be serious... Should we shut up and walk around pregnant once a year as well?

A woman should never bare the responsibility of the atrocities of a mans war. Woman shouldn’t have to lose there souls over lies and wars over mans ideology of race creed or color. Woman should be cutting potatoes ,making the bunks up ,using computers to help the men to win the war, but to have a woman kill ,is totally uncivilized to me and the universe.

Woman are the most important species to us and the universe, we do not except this what so ever.

Good thing you don't get to make the rules, and most of America disagrees with you.

Of course they will disagree, Americans love killing and going to hell, so who cares if they disagree, the universe and me could care less, it is...the American way!

Originally posted by LastProphet527

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe

Originally posted by LastProphet527
reply to post by Vitruvian

 

I honestly do not think so, that is what is wrong with woman now, they do not no their place in life. They need to cook for our troops and make the bunks up, anything else is uncivilized

You can not be serious... Should we shut up and walk around pregnant once a year as well?

A woman should never bare the responsibility of the atrocities of a mans war. Woman shouldn’t have to lose there souls over lies and wars over mans ideology of race creed or color. Woman should be cutting potatoes ,making the bunks up ,using computers to help the men to win the war, but to have a woman kill ,is totally uncivilized to me and the universe.

Woman are the most important species to us and the universe, we do not except this what so ever.

Its men, overall, there are always exceptions that go both ways, who are primed to be less able to walk in others shoes, and more able to promote war and killing. Most women who do so on the surface are just mirroring dad or hubbie, like one of my friends who is in a less than equal relationship and caters to all of his opinions.

But every woman I've ever talked to abhors violence, and wants a world were every child is fed, and that held true regardless of whatever political stripes they were raised in, left, right or inbetween.

We're not like men, we're not men with breasts, which is often how men think women are, completely different wiring. Women don't get the extra spatial their brain wiring goes to joining both hemispheres and enabling them to bond with, empathetically connect to, and speak to, raise, do all for, their children and other children.

I personally would never hang out with any pro military men, because the deeper thinkers and feelers are the only ones I would ever have as friends either.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Golf66

 

Indeed. But by and large, as you also pointed out, this is not the majority of 68W out there. The MOS itself emphasizes combat readiness as most medics will be attached to infantry units. The rest usually go to flight units.

I just wanted to get the message out that medical personnel have the option so that people who are not familiar with the military will know the score. There seems to be a lot of disinformation on ATS about the military IMO. Seems we are all war mongers and hate filled video game addicts who enjoy killing children and eating their hearts.

Anyway, we even had a Doctor who would come out to the FOB on rotations for our hearts and minds visits with the villages who would leave his non-combat card in the FOB and ask for a rifle. He said a pistol is great in Kandahar/Kabul but out here I'll take the rifle please. He didn't have his own so he'd have to zero every time he came out.

We had plenty of extra M4's since we all mostly carried our "premium" weapons (SOCOM M1A's, MP5's, AKs, RPKs, SAWs and of course the M107) more than the M4. We also had or vehicle mounted grenade launchers and M2's along with a 60m mortar in the back just in case. We probably had the equivalent firepower of a Company (-) when we left the base for a - hearts and minds... Ironically, when we went out on one of these I only carried a sidearm while interacting with the elders and people but I was never without my Weapons Sergeant (who had an extra MP5 for me just in case) and my interpreter. Just didn't seem right for me to be heavily armed and conducting a hearts and minds to me. I did feel a little naked...

When he was treating patients of course he'd have it nearby but not obvious. He was a prior service 11B so I don't think he was typical. The nurse that came out didn't want a rifle. However, her female interpreter (which is required to get any credibility when treating the Afghani women) not only carried a rifle she had a shotgun as well as a sidearm she was one of those ladies I am sure would do fine in combat arms. She was about 6' tall and very athletic - volleyball player type.

I guess his philosophy was it's great to be a non combatant when you are surrounded by base security but when it’s just you and 12-20 other guys in the middle of 100-200 villagers a good number of whom are just as likely to line up for a shot from you as they are to line up to shoot at you. The same guys who would smile laugh and take your handouts would be the ones popping off mortar rounds at the convoy as you left for the day.

Originally posted by Unity_99

Originally posted by LastProphet527

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe

Originally posted by LastProphet527
reply to post by Vitruvian

 

I honestly do not think so, that is what is wrong with woman now, they do not no their place in life. They need to cook for our troops and make the bunks up, anything else is uncivilized

You can not be serious... Should we shut up and walk around pregnant once a year as well?

A woman should never bare the responsibility of the atrocities of a mans war. Woman shouldn’t have to lose there souls over lies and wars over mans ideology of race creed or color. Woman should be cutting potatoes ,making the bunks up ,using computers to help the men to win the war, but to have a woman kill ,is totally uncivilized to me and the universe.

Woman are the most important species to us and the universe, we do not except this what so ever.

Its men, overall, there are always exceptions that go both ways, who are primed to be less able to walk in others shoes, and more able to promote war and killing. Most women who do so on the surface are just mirroring dad or hubbie, like one of my friends who is in a less than equal relationship and caters to all of his opinions.

But every woman I've ever talked to abhors violence, and wants a world were every child is fed, and that held true regardless of whatever political stripes they were raised in, left, right or inbetween.

We're not like men, we're not men with breasts, which is often how men think women are, completely different wiring. Women don't get the extra spatial their brain wiring goes to joining both hemispheres and enabling them to bond with, empathetically connect to, and speak to, raise, do all for, their children and other children.

I personally would never hang out with any pro military men, because the deeper thinkers and feelers are the only ones I would ever have as friends either.

edit on 4-8-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

For they say woman are the soul
Of what’s new
To be like man
Is nothing new?
A woman’s place is to grow her role
But to kill like a man
She will lose her soul

‘Book of trees and fruits’

The prophet of all Prophetesses ‘FE-MAE-LE’

‘Apples in the sun’42

The woman was than man
The devils plane was man
To add the woman was man
Now it is complete
More souls to complete
Now woman are men
I have more souls to grin.

Woman, regardless of woman’s lib, and the human flesh philosophy of woman’s rights, its just some things that just don’t fit the matrix of a woman’s life.

Originally posted by bwcawaterbear "If i were to say how I really felt about this post they would shut my reply down. Further, I think this post should have been shut down because of discriminatory content, it is insulting to a least half of all ATS membership. Of course I think this person is just using this post to get a reaction and possibly incite anger by the women who read it. I can cook AND pull a trigger AND have babiesAND hold down a job. What world does this person live in? I mean really?" .. .. .. My Response:

I would like you to know that in spite of all the charges you leveled against me in your post (quoted above) - all of which are unfounded - this turned out to be a very good thread after all - replete with many differing POV's and strong opinions, pro and con - male and female - soldier and civilian. This is what a good thread should be all about - don't you think? Openess to a fair and balanced discussion - right?

So in answer to your unfair charges - I am very glad that I posted the topic- And I think we are doing pretty well. I have learned a number of things - Not the least of which is how men and women (but especially women) really feel about this rather sensitive issue

my disclaimer.. i love, honor and cherish all women they're the creators of life among many other things especially my wife and daughters and am completely devoted to them. the women in my life are very strong and independent.

having said that..

are you serious with this question? i say who better than a woman for spying? you apparently have not yet had the honor of having a jealous girlfriend and thank your lucky stars for that. as far as "murder" goes i say, again, you must not have ever looked into the eyes of a very angry women and felt clear down to your bones the feeling of exactly what she could be capable of.. she doesn't even have to prove herself, you just know. so i say i'd be able to rest easy with them protecting me. what i do disagree with is them in combat situations and not because of the "rights" issue but that's an issue for other topics.

no disrespect at all is meant by my remark.