Should Chick-Fil-A ban Menstruating women?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

You might want to check the writings of the early church fathers before Theodosius I made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. That's the birth of Catholicism. Are the Orthodox Christians Trinitarians?

I have, have you? The apostles', Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp and Hermas were all Apostolic.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Amd there is no "non-denominational" denomination. We're an independent church with no affiliation with any other church. That's what "non-denominational" means.

Earlier you said Apostolic Pentecostal Churches, many are independent non-denominational, are denominations. So which is it?

reply to post by truejew


Trinitarian quotes from Polycarp:

"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever"

Ignatius:

In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever"

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts."

Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp):

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..."

I'd suggest reading the "AnteNicaean Fathers" and "Against Heresies" (All volumes), you can find both on Amazon. Against heresies is usually under 30 bucks. And I showed you that "Oneness Pentecostalism/Apostolic" is a denomination, listed as such under Christian Denominations. And classic Pentecostalism is not the same as "Oneness", classic Pentecostals are Trinitarian.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


There is nothing trinitarian in those quotes. The truth is, the first to use trinitarian language was Tertullian around 200AD. He began as a binitarian, but the Montanists influenced his change to trinitarian. Tertullian, a heretic, taught that the Son was inferior to the Father. In his writings, he admitted that most Christians at that time were oneness.

If you claim that my independent nondenominational is a denomination then you must also claim that your independent nondenominational is a denomination.

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

There is nothing trinitarian in those quotes. The truth is, the first to use trinitarian language was Tertullian around 200AD. He began as a binitarian, but the Montanists influenced his change to trinitarian. Tertullian, a heretic, taught that the Son was inferior to the Father. In his writings, he admitted that most Christians at that time were oneness.

If you claim that my independent nondenominational is a denomination then you must also claim that your independent nondenominational is a denomination.

edit on 8-8-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-8-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)

All those quotes speak of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And they affirm that God is One. The Trinitarian position. And "Oneness Pentecostalism/Apostolic" is a sect/denomination within Protestant Christianity. (Refer to the link). Your pastor can have his ordination papers pulled for not teaching approved doctrine. My pastor needs no ordination papers to get behind a pulpit and answers to no man. There are no sister churches or state or national hierarchy or governing bodies.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Those quotes use the same language that is used in Scripture and they are not trinitarian. They never mention three gods/persons. Their writings also contradict the trinity in many places.

Many Apostolic Churches also do not have national hierarchy or governing bodies, but I guess you probably know more about us than we do, right?

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Those quotes use the same language that is used in Scripture and they are not trinitarian. They never mention three gods/persons. Their writings also contradict the trinity in many places.

Many Apostolic Churches also do not have national hierarchy or governing bodies, but I guess you probably know more about us than we do, right?

Well YEAH, because the writing in the Bible confirms 3 persons making up One God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet one God.

Ever heard of THIS organization? They not only have a national governing body but an INTERNATIONAL one. Your pastor most likely received ordination papers from this denomination... and they can pull them from him if he doest "toe the line".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Well YEAH, because the writing in the Bible confirms 3 persons making up One God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet one God.

Nope. The Bible confirms one God, not three. God is the Holy One, not holy three or holy trinity.

I noticed that you overlooked the fact that they contradict the trinity too.

In his Epistle to Polycarp, Ignatius, taught Patripassianism.

"Look for Him who is above all time, eternal and invisible, yet who became visible for our sakes: impalpable and impassible, yet who became passible on our account; and who in every kind of way suffered for our sakes".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Ever heard of THIS organization? They not only have a national governing body but an INTERNATIONAL one. Your pastor most likely received ordination papers from this denomination... and they can pull them from him if he doest "toe the line".

We were not discussing the UPCI. We are discussing Apostolic Pentecostalism. The UPCI, PAW, ALJC, and others are examples of denominations that are Apostolic Pentecostal, but there are also many independent churches that are also Apostolic Pentecostal. Again, I say the truth, Apostolic Pentecostal is not a name of a denomination.

reply to post by truejew


I never said the Bible confirms "three gods", re-read what I said. And your quote is describing Yeshua the Son of God. Let me ask you some Qs. Did Jesus say or not say that "no man" had seen the Father when He was on Earth? (John 1:18, 6:46)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I never said the Bible confirms "three gods", re-read what I said.

Three persons is three gods. Trinitarians claim God is a holy trinity, while the Bible only calls Him a Holy One. Why is that?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And your quote is describing Yeshua the Son of God.

So you believe that one god/person could suffer, but the other two could not? Does that make Jesus less than the other two? Or are you saying that one god/person chose to suffer and that the other two can suffer, but chose not to. If one god/person suffered and the other two did not, doesn't that make them separate gods.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Let me ask you some Qs. Did Jesus say or not say that "no man" had seen the Father when He was on Earth? (John 1:18, 6:46)

Yes. Jesus also said, "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9-10 KJV)

The Father is invisible. No man has seen Him, but those who see Jesus, have seen the manifestation of the invisible Father in flesh.

reply to post by truejew

 

Three persons is three gods. Trinitarians claim God is a holy trinity, while the Bible only calls Him a Holy One. Why is that?

Sure.. I suppose it wont kill me to ask a gazillionth time...

Every time you post the Shema I point out to you that the Hebrew word for "One" is (one in unity not one as is single), and that the same Hebrew word is used when God says Adam and Eve became " one flesh". So naturally they became one human I suppose?

And yes, Jesus said " no man" had seen the Father at any time, so please tell me which "Lord" and " God" Abraham and Sarah met with face to face in Genesis 18 and who Isaiah laid his eyes upon sitting on His throne. How do you reconcile this discrepancy? Was Jesus lying or not all knowing and just making an incorrect guess, or were those people seeing the pre-incarnate Son and not the Father since Christ said "NO MAN" has ever seen the Father? Those accounts both happened pre-incarnation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


No man will ever see the father because the father is the seer. Can you see the seer of this experience?
All seeing, all knowing and everpresent.
Hidden in plain sight.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No man will ever see the father because the father is the seer. Can you see the seer of this experience?
All seeing, all knowing and everpresent.
Hidden in plain sight.

"Blessed are the pure in heart because they shall see God."

"Will ever" is a poor choice of words. "Has ever" is past tense, the terminology Christ used.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Every time you post the Shema I point out to you that the Hebrew word for "One" is (one in unity not one as is single), and that the same Hebrew word is used when God says Adam and Eve became " one flesh". So naturally they became one human I suppose?

So all of those times that God said He is one God, that there is none beside Him, He really meant that there are two other gods with Him that are in unity? That just does not sound correct to me.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And yes, Jesus said " no man" had seen the Father at any time, so please tell me which "Lord" and " God" Abraham and Sarah met with face to face in Genesis 18 and who Isaiah laid his eyes upon sitting on His throne. How do you reconcile this discrepancy?

God has had many manifestations over the years. I think the real question is how do trinitarians reconcile this without admitting to worship of three gods?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


No man 'has ever' or 'will ever' see the father.

reply to post by truejew


I can image it doesn't sound correct to you because you cannot reconcile unity in diversity/plurality. And you're looking and calling each person of the Godhead a separate god. No, One God who exists in three persons. (Not to be confused with "persons" in the context we use it to describe "people"). You keep purposely thinking of three gods, no, there is ONE God.

And Abraham and Sarah met face to face with the pre-incarnate Son of God. Isaiah saw Him seated upon the throne, Joshua met Him outside Jerhico and fell to his face and worshipped Him. Also Christ told the truth (obviously) that "NO MAN" at any time had ever seen the Father. That's two personages of the Trinity. (One God)

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No man 'has ever' or 'will ever' see the father.

edit on 9-8-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I'll take Jesus' word for it no offense. That the pure in heart will one day see the Father.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I can image it doesn't sound correct to you because you cannot reconcile unity in diversity/plurality. And you're looking and calling each person of the Godhead a separate god. No, One God who exists in three persons. (Not to be confused with "persons" in the context we use it to describe "people"). You keep purposely thinking of three gods, no, there is ONE God.

And Abraham and Sarah met face to face with the pre-incarnate Son of God. Isaiah saw Him seated upon the throne, Joshua met Him outside Jerhico and fell to his face and worshipped Him. Also Christ told the truth (obviously) that "NO MAN" at any time had ever seen the Father. That's two personages of the Trinity. (One God)

It seems obvious to me that they are three separate gods. You have them speaking to each other. You have one being seen while the other is unseen. You have only one of them manifest in the flesh. You have one who can suffer while the other two can't. You use Adam and Eve, two separate beings, to show how these three persons can be one in unity.

reply to post by truejew


Wait.. "I have them speaking to eachother"???

The baptism of Christ the Father is speaking to those in attendance and His Son. And every time Jesus prayed He was speaking to the Father, read John 17. And in Revelation the Father gave the vision to His Son to share with His (Jesus) servant John. The Father also speaks to the Son and Peter, James and John at the transfiguration and they testify of hearing His voice speaking to His Son. And yes, only the son manifested to be seen in the OT. And only the Son manifested in the flesh at the incarnation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, three separate beings/gods is what you have.

Is the Jesus and Father of your trinity, Holy Spirit?

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yes, three separate beings/gods is what you have.

Is the Jesus and Father of your trinity, Holy Spirit?

For the 30th time. NOT 3 separate "beings/entities/gods/ creatures/ lifeforms".. three persons of One God. God is a "Him" not a "Them". He is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 3 distinct persons, yet One God. Unity in plurality.