"Why Do Creationists Get Laughed At?" , page 5

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reply posted on 2-8-2012 @ 09:52 PM by EllaMarina

Since I'm personally a panentheist, it stands to reason that I believe life was set into motion by a higher meta-consciousness. I don't think that kind of thing is the view that gains the most ridicule, though. Intelligent design is more of a "prove God exists" issue than whether evolution is baseless or not.

This is the image that I think people have in mind when they think of Creationism: all separate species of animals, including humans, poofed into existence at the same time out of nowhere. Combine this with the additional detail that the female sex was sculpted around a disembodied rib, and you have something akin to mythology, or at the very least a symbolic story that was never meant to be taken literally.

It's early Genesis literalism that frustrates so many people.

reply posted on 2-8-2012 @ 10:09 PM by TheJackelantern

Originally posted by EllaMarina
Since I'm personally a panentheist, it stands to reason that I believe life was set into motion by a higher meta-consciousness.

Well, is that being living or dead? And what set in motion the processes that support the emergence of a conscious state? You're a Panentheist, but the Pantheists would be more correct in their religious views of origins.

This is the image that I think people have in mind when they think of Creationism: all separate species of animals, including humans, poofed into existence at the same time out of nowhere.

If that were true, we would find everything in the same layers..You don't find human fossils next to T-rex fossils..So of course that would be wrong

and I agree, how would one come form a place that doesn't exist? "Where" exactly is "no where?".. Those arguments are self-refuting and often used by Christian creationists.

Combine this with the additional detail that the female sex was sculpted around a disembodied rib, and you have something akin to mythology, or at the very least a symbolic story that was never meant to be taken literally.

That concept was taken from the Egyptians and is a Pagan creation story of man and woman.

It's early Genesis literalism that frustrates so many people.

Mostly because it's wrong and taken from polytheism and is a pagan belief..

edit on 2-8-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-8-2012 @ 10:18 PM by EllaMarina

I suppose the concept of a superconsciousness creating the building blocks of life out of nowhere is pretty much the same as that of a deity conjuring creatures out of thin air. I'll just say that I think science still has a way to go in discovering the explanation behind the more mysterious phenomena of the universe. Eventually we will get to the point where we understand how life's basic beginning emerged, and magic won't figure into it at all. I look forward to it. This may be the biggest God of the Gaps situation ever, what do you think?

As for my philosophy... we could have a neat chat about it.

edit on 2-8-2012 by EllaMarina because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-8-2012 @ 10:35 PM by TheJackelantern

Originally posted by EllaMarina
I suppose the concept of a superconsciousness creating the building blocks of life out of nowhere is pretty much the same as that of a deity conjuring creatures out of thin air.

This makes no sense.. What would you be arguing is being used as materials for making life, and where do you think these materials come from while understanding you can't take nothing to which doesn't exist and make something out of it. As an example, people can't make paints out of "thin air", or from nothing..People must take from what already exists to make paints with, or to even have a canvas to paint on.

I'll just say that I think science still has a way to go in explaining the more mysterious phenomena of the universe.

Yes but those are all energy related and physics related to a quantized system. So far, infinite regress points to energy itself as the capacity, property, and essence value of existence itself. Everything is made of energy, and that includes energy itself. And well, energy can only be made of what existence itself is made of. Infinite regress is pretty much solved, the problem science is having is understanding how all that works regarding all the phenomenon we see within the expression of energy.

Eventually we will get to the point where we understand how life's basic beginning emerged, and magic won't figure into it at all. I look forward to it. This may be the biggest God of the Gaps situation ever, what do you think?

We know the basics of what is required, or the systems needed..The problem is knowing how exactly it happened as an event in itself... So far abiogenesis is undetermined, but there is more evidence for that than life being created by another living entity to where there is no evidence for its existence. So far, existence is seen as a self-generating system that produces conscious beings, life, and the complexity the world around us. True origins can't be concluded by any conscious entity even if a conscious entity were to have played a role in the creation of life here. This is simply because a conscious state can't exist without cause. So the question you are looking to answer is if a conscious entity had a hand in the process of creating life "here". This of course ignoring itself can't be without cause.. kind of like how we don't exist without cause but are able to produce synthetic life even with our own artificial information. And that leads to a question..If we make man made life, would that not make us GOD by such creative definition? We already made light from a vacuum, and some scientist suggest we could possibly create a universe, or might already have unknowingly. Heck, this universe could for wild idea sake, be a result of some particle physics experiment unknown to the physicist. The point is, there is no evidence of that, and regardless, all evidence of reality shows it's self-generating even if said above be true.

As for my philosophy... we could have a neat chat about it.

I had contemplated Panenthiesm for a time before I had become a Pantheist for about 2 years. And when really critically thinking about that as well, I determined that Pantheism really exposed why the GOD concept is moot. Existence itself is as high as you can possible get on the GOD totem pole. Hence the GOD train stops there, and it's the entire spectrum of it all.. What's worse, is that would make everything GOD.. So me worshiping existence or another entity is exactly stating existence worships itself, or another part of itself as GOD... So it's moot.

edit on 2-8-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-8-2012 @ 10:43 PM by EllaMarina

Originally posted by TheJackelantern

Originally posted by EllaMarina
I suppose the concept of a superconsciousness creating the building blocks of life out of nowhere is pretty much the same as that of a deity conjuring creatures out of thin air.

This makes no sense.. What would you be arguing is being used as materials for making life, and where do you think these materials come from while understanding you can't take nothing to which doesn't exist and make something out of it. As an example, people can't make paints out of "thin air", or from nothing..People must take from what already exists to make paints with, or to even have a canvas to paint on.

I see what you're saying. It was just the "from nothing" aspect I was looking at, at first.
As for "God" worshipping itself, I've never seen a point in worship to begin with. The One Mind experiencing itself subjectively... such a fun philosophy to get caught up in. Though I would prefer to have the mechanical explanation for everything...

Thanks for the rest of the info, by the way. It was interesting.

edit on 2-8-2012 by EllaMarina because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-8-2012 @ 10:54 PM by TheJackelantern

reply to post by EllaMarina

Well mechanically speaking, energy interferes with itself and thus is it's own force. the fracturing of symmetry to where you get the four forces from, makes it possible to have a system with feedback to which is necessary to have reactionary systems to which are the basic dynamics of complex adaptive systems. These systems to which are the basics of cognitive systems theory that also involves cybernetics. You can't have life or conscious beings without such a system. These all deal with information science, theory, and systems theory. And it gets very complicated very quickly

Hence, to try and understand it all is much harder to do than for all that we try to understand to simply work as it does. Even a description can not fully describe everything since something like pain can not be fully described in words or math since itself is the full physical description or expression.. Just like how I can describe a bouncing ball in terms of physics, but also state that description isn't the full physical description since the actual ball bouncing itself is, and is the full expression of a ball bouncing. A conscious state is like that, and likely the highest form of physical expression.

edit on 2-8-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

Now with the higgs discovery, I think we are on the right path to better understanding how everything works.

Hopefully we can unravel how life officially started here on Earth

edit on 2-8-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 12:09 AM by AdamsMurmur

Billions of years ago, you were a big bang, but now you're a complicated human being ... You're not something that is a sort of puppet on the end of the process. You are still the process. You are the big bang, the original force of the universe, coming on as whoever you are.

All creation as we see it is the creator coming into being, essentially establishing itself within itself on this level, this plane of existence. This is why we look within for God, because we're it. It resides within us as does the universe itself. "We are made of star-stuff." right? We are just vibrating along the spectra of existence, observing ourselves and the rest of creation in a subjective manner. We're all of it, and we're ongoing -- there's no end, and there's no beginning, it simply is. If you want to find God, look within you, and even look without you. You find God in all places. It's not a matter of evolution vs creationism, because those are both concepts that carry with them a multitude of stigma. Strip off the stigma and realize that those are simply elements of the process. Humanity itself is the product of millions of years of evolution and design. In this spectrum, this vibration of existence, we're just avatars of ourselves, and we are one with everything.

This is why I see pantheism as the truest interpretation of what God is. Even when I was younger I used to think that we are like pieces of God. In pantheism, there's no reason for us to fight among ourselves over who's religion is right or wrong, or who's scientific theory is right or wrong -- in other words, who's observation is right or wrong -- they all carry within them seeds of truth and wisdom; everything has a purpose. That's what it means to have faith: open-mindedness, because faith's core meaning is the truth, and one cannot cling to beliefs if he's out to find the truth. Alchemically change this belief into knowledge, and this is done by letting go of the belief in order to observe it from the outside. You don't know you're in a box until you look at it from the outside. From the inside, it looks like a cube, but for all you know, it could be a house, or a room in a building. But that's precisely the point: how do you know what you think you know without observing it from the outside? The only way to do that is to let it go and see it from further away. This goes for all things, and in the case of this thread, creationism vs evolution. Believing in one or the other is simply putting yourself in a box. Try letting go of the belief, whatever it is, and try to see the bigger picture. Why can't both be right, or even wrong? Darwin can be wrong, and so can Genesis, but just as easily, they can both be right, or at least, both have pieces of the grand puzzle that is our origins.

As for me, I'm starting to see very clearly as Alan Watts describes it... a big splash of ink on a wall, dense towards it's centre and more complicated on the outskirts. We're like those fine bits on the outskirts, but it's ongoing, not stagnant. It's constantly growing and changing because an end would be counterproductive. Creation always is, was, and will be, but the process, the evolution, it's all there so that we can think for ourselves and weave our part of the tapestry of existence. If all things fell into our laps, if seeking was not necessary, if mystery wasn't mysterious at all, if there was nothing to experience or observe, then what would be the point of all this? The Christian would say we are fallen from heaven and need to seek out salvation to return there, and the Atheist says we are a chance happening that came from nothingness. Both seem to ultimately call us a mistake or are broken in some way. What's the middle ground for those two particular viewpoints? I can't really find one because it's like trying to add 0 and 0 together, and this is why both parties are constantly fighting themselves. They're not really getting anywhere until they disassemble those beliefs and faithfully try to seek out truths no matter how shocking they may be. Can an Atheist, that doesn't believe in a god or "creation," accept that he is God and creation? Can a Christian do the same? We're taught no, so rather than accept it, they would rather fight about who's right. We're all partially right... no one has all the truth in their hands. Anything's possible, so rather than go around denying things, I think it's better to be open to them instead.

Phew! It's late so I hope this big post is coherently written and on-topic.

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 12:23 AM by TheJackelantern

Simply put. Pantheism worships what science studies

AKA Existence itself as GOD, and that GOD is in everything as it is the essences value and governor of ourselves. But I even think Pantheism is too Narcissistic. I see no point in worshiping anything.. I think it would be better to just enjoy it, learn more, and reach for the highest states of being possible.

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 01:13 AM by MrXYZ

Originally posted by TheGreatDivider

Originally posted by TheJackelantern
reply to post by TheGreatDivider

Have you yourself, you... ever witnessed any of this personally? I mean literally with you standing there observing and checking the data and stats?

Have yourself gone to the sun to make sure it's not a spot light as the flat Earthers claim? Are you seriously going to rely on the science conspiracy theory?

I don't see any difference in evolutionists claiming creationists are just following what they are taught and the other way around. MOST evolutionists are not scientists or biologists and "believe" and have 'faith" in what they are told. So if you haven't performed the experiments yourself, you are no more "intelligent" than anyone else.

The difference is, when scientists tell people it's backed up by OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE....which isn't the case when creationists make claims

Objective evidence matters

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 01:29 AM by Murgatroid

"This thread isn't about being close minded, it about addressing the dishonesty of the creationist movement"

Are you SERIOUS? Science is the biggest FRAUD in history! Science and education are nothing but MASSIVE forms of mind control...

How sad that so many are actually gullible enough to actually BELIEVE the people hiding behind this deception called "Science", when in reality there's nothing but fraud behind it.

What part of Evolution is a lie?

It would take days to begin to explain how much false evidence has been put forward as proof for Evolution. There was the Piltdown man fraud, there was the Orce man fraud, there was The Archaeoraptor Liaoningensis: or the Fake Dinosaur-bird ancestor, which turned out to be a fraud, and a big embarrasment for National Geographic Magazine.

There was the Nebraska man fraud, there was the Java man fraud, there was the Neanderthal man fraud. This could go on and on, and the reason for this, is because as soon as they think they found the missing link, the Evolutionist bring out their big brass marching band. Yet as soon as they find out that the evidence in question is a fraud, everything is hushed up, and you never hear any more about it. Which leaves everyone thinking they have the theory nailed down.

About every few years they come out with the new missing link, only to find out the link is either another species or a fraud. And this happens over, and over, and over, and almost no one ever questions this, and joe public just believes what ever the news media tells them.

What part of Evolution is a lie?

"The model of human prehistory built-up by scholars over the past two centuries is sadly and completely wrong, and a deliberate tool of disinformation and mind control. ...they demonstrate a systematic destruction of proofs that show another reality than that the official story. Falsifications and even destruction of such proofs has been common for more than two hundred years." LINK

Behold your "God"...

Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses.

"...scientists who see an intelligent force at work in nature are being fired from their jobs. ...mention "intelligent design" today and your career is over. Why are "secularists" so afraid of intelligent design?

Because they're funded by the Illuminati, (Rockefellers, Rothschilds etc.) who are Satanists. Satanists fear that acceptance of this "intelligence" will interfere with the makeover they're giving humanity. They think they are God.

Secularism pretends to be about freedom and tolerance but that's a ruse. It is Satanism in disguise and nothing freaks a Satanist more than the rumor of God or anything resembling Him. Watch the Trailer! The secularists are more fanatical than any religious cult. They are a satanic cult. They deny the obvious! They have to expel scientists! They have to stop free inquiry and debate!

Yes Virginia, there is no Satan. But there are legions of his disciples ready to betray truth for transitory profit. They're in academia, the mass media, government and the National Academy of "Sciences."

They serve the Prince of Lies. They make evil seem good, lies seem true. They want humanity to be an accomplice in its own demise. This is why Satanists "reveal the method." They want our moral complicity. They want our souls.

Modern Western history is the record of the overthrow of Christianity by Satanism disguised as secularism. Satanism has pervaded every aspect of our cultural and intellectual life but we hoped that science would be spared. Apparently, this is not to be.

Intelligent Scientists "Expelled" by Illuminati

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 02:24 AM by monkcaw

Christians should support and insist upon honest scientific inquiry and stop feeling threatened by the observations of evolutionary science. Honestly, some creationist views are wacky: did the devil really plant those dinosaur bones to confuse the world?

If religious people want to dip their toes in the scientific process they should be held to the same rigorous standards of others in the community and taken to task for shoddy or dishonest work. After all, do Christians really want apologetics in their science? I don't.

And it would be nice if more evolutionists resisted the temptation to make unfounded religious pronouncements.

edit on 3-8-2012 by monkcaw because: spelling

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 03:35 AM by randyvs

reply to post by TheJackelantern

I'll answer your question with the absolute truth. And what you do with that truth, I couldn't careless.

"Why Do Creationists Get Laughed At?"

Because God said we would.

Now I guess I will fora ever wonder what that video tower was fora ?

edit on 3-8-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 04:21 AM by ignorant_ape

i dont laugh at creationists , i pity the fools

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 04:47 AM by Glass

reply to post by AdamsMurmur

You can always pick out the more enlightened people in threads like these. They are distinguishable by their very long posts which make no personal attacks, their willingness and effort towards seeing the truth in both sides' arguments, and occasionally the odd box-related metaphor.

Star for you

reply to post by Mickierocksman

Now I'd like to play devil's advocate...or more accurately, Creator's advocate.

Originally posted by Mickierocksman
Why do creationists get laughed at?

Because they are funny to me, they think the entire universe (& other alien races in it) including this world was made by some ‘all loving powerful entity’ (apparently around 6000 years ago?) but it did not make everything perfect just to screw us over…..

The universe is not perfect? Look around you. Unless you have a mental disorder, you should notice that the reality in which we exist is remarkably stable. Everything operates in accordance with natural laws, resulting in a well ordered system from which astonishing things have been created, such as galaxies, stars, planets, and even living, thinking beings with creative potential beyond the capabilities of those laws.

Apparently it can help an old lady with a stalled car engine, but yet turns a blind eye to thousands of children being murdered and starved to death every day.

Death is a necessary consequence of life. Suffering is an emergent property of consciousness. They have their places within the system.

Perhaps the universe does not appear perfect from your perspective, but that is because it was not designed to be an ideal paradise for living beings. If we want an ideal paradise, we must create it for ourselves, and the Creator has endowed us with the potential to do just that.

Yep, this entity of yours really sounds like he can create a universe and look after it :-/

If it was a job, he / she or it would have been fired for total incompetence a long time ago.

Maybe we have different ideas on what the Creator's job is. In my mind, it is the being responsible for creating and maintaining reality, a job which it evidently performs flawlessly.

If our alien ancestors don’t return and by some ‘miracle’ your entity in the clouds shows itself – I would never ‘follow’ or ‘repent’ and would love to tell it just how much of a crap job it’s done – then I would flip it the bird and walk away to ‘burn in fire for all eternity’…… as the other option of spending an eternity with something that allows really bad things to happen everyday which could be prevented really does not do it for me at all.

I challenge you to create a better system. From scratch.

That is why your funny to me, because you believe in something that really does not make sense at all and never will to me and millions of others.

Mickierocksman

You're right, what you have been describing does not make sense. The idea of a Creator, in and of itself, is still a potentially sound idea when viewed under the right light.

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 05:15 AM by pacifier2012

They get laughed at because those doing the laughing can't see how ridiculous their own beliefs are.

Imagine basing your whole existence and belief system around a big bang of nothing from nothing...

Those that believe in this sort of stuff need to see how funny they really are. Creationists need to do the laughing AT evolutionists and Big Bang theorists. Creationists have nothing to defend.

Intelligent design from a being outside our time and space makes 1000x more sense than what these scientists keep forcing into kids brains who haven't thought out the irrationality of whats being taught....

Our whole universe was in a hot dense state,
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started. Wait...
The Earth began to cool,
The autotrophs began to drool,
Neanderthals developed tools,
We built a wall (we built the pyramids),
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries,
That all started with the big bang!

and that folks is the belief system of millions...

See why I laugh !?

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 05:38 AM by Glass

reply to post by pacifier2012

Now I'll have a go at the other side of the debate...

Originally posted by pacifier2012
They get laughed at because those doing the laughing can't see how ridiculous their own beliefs are.

Imagine basing your whole existence and belief system around a big bang of nothing from nothing...

If the universe had a definite beginning (I say if because there's always the possibility that it has always existed) it would invariably occur the same way, with or without an intelligent Creator. The evidence of the big bang theory indicates that the universe was once in a very hot and dense state. Scientists have even been able to prove the existence of the subatomic particles which would have existed at that time.

Also, "nothing from nothing"? Did you mean "something from nothing"? Obviously the universe is something, matter is something. It is certainly not nothing.

Those that believe in this sort of stuff need to see how funny they really are. Creationists need to do the laughing AT evolutionists and Big Bang theorists. Creationists have nothing to defend.

I think both sides need to stop laughing and dismissing each other and start looking at things more objectively.

Intelligent design from a being outside our time and space makes 1000x more sense than what these scientists keep forcing into kids brains who haven't thought out the irrationality of whats being taught....

One thousand times more sense? Is that an exact figure? I'm curious about what mathematical formula you used to deduce the likelihood of intelligent design to make more sense than scientific theory. Not to mention that intelligent design and science are not mutually exclusive.

Why do creationists feel the need to refute the findings of science? Do they not understand that science is really just an attempt to understand and explain how the universe functions?

Do you not understand how much more awesome God sounds if he created the universe with a massive explosion, then the particles from that explosion organized themselves, according to natural laws, into atoms, then into nebulae, stars, galaxies, planets...a chaotic system of explosions and fusion and other amazing forces...which lead to the creation of earth, where life emerged, once again due to those natural laws...

But instead you proclaim that all this is utter bull, that God hand made everything and we're not meant to know how or why, he put our ancestors in a garden with some particularly dangerous fruit and deceitful reptiles and then flipped his lid when the reptile deceived us and we ate the damn fruit, and now we have to pray to a dead jew who was executed for political dissidence?

Also note that children in schools are NOT being taught that there is no God. That would truly be irrational, as there is no way to prove the non-existence of a God. What they are being taught is sound scientific theory explaining how the universe is known to function. I see no reason to withhold this knowledge from children. I believe it to be perfectly rational to give children a solid base of knowledge early in their lives.

Our whole universe was in a hot dense state,
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started. Wait...
The Earth began to cool,
The autotrophs began to drool,
Neanderthals developed tools,
We built a wall (we built the pyramids),
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries,
That all started with the big bang!

and that folks is the belief system of millions...

See why I laugh !?

Well, no, I don't really see why you laugh. All of that stuff makes perfect sense to me. I wonder why you have had trouble grasping those ideas?

Maybe because you've never actually studied any of those concepts and you got that from the theme song of a freakin' TV show!

Go forth and educate thyself, so sayeth the Lord.

edit on 3/8/2012 by Glass because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/8/2012 by Glass because: A point about the children. Wont somebody please think of the children!?

edit on 3/8/2012 by Glass because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 06:19 AM by insaan

reply to post by TheJackelantern

Let me ask you something OP, why do you generalize? Are you assuming that Creationism equates to Christianity? Or anyone who rejects evolution?

Creationism is absolute, you can't argue against it, everything around you is part of the creation, including you. Just because the world evolves (changes), doesn't mean it wasn't created, and just to add, nothing is random, hence Determinism. If you can see through the illogical childish arguments of an Atheist, you will easily believe in a creator.

Note - Science is merely observation, but observation of what? That's the question. Creationists argue that it is observation of creation. Atheists argue that it is observation of random incidents which lead to this magnificent Universe.

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 07:43 AM by AdamsMurmur

Originally posted by TheJackelantern
Simply put. Pantheism worships what science studies AKA Existence itself as GOD, and that GOD is in everything as it is the essences value and governor of ourselves. But I even think Pantheism is too Narcissistic. I see no point in worshiping anything.. I think it would be better to just enjoy it, learn more, and reach for the highest states of being possible.

Worship? More like admiration and respect.

And we wouldn't be able to truly appreciate existence without looking at it through a telescope or a microscope, and so on. If it weren't for such things, we'd still think the Sun revolved around the Earth, or that other planets didn't exist out there at all, which means we'd think life didn't exist out there either.

But yes: enjoy, learn, and grow. Those are some of the biggest reasons for being here.

reply to post by Glass

Thank you for the kind words.

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 08:27 AM by Prezbo369

Great topic OP, been thinking of creating a very similar thread for a while now.

The dishonesty and spread of disinformation is what defines creationists, whether they were subjects to it or proponents of it.

In 20-30 years these people will look as stupid as the good folk at chick-fil-a will......an embarrassment to the entire human race.

reply posted on 3-8-2012 @ 08:52 AM by Prezbo369

Originally posted by insaan
reply to [url= by TheJackelantern[/url]

Let me ask you something OP, why do you generalize? Are you assuming that Creationism equates to Christianity? Or anyone who rejects evolution?

Probably because hes from the US, home of the creationism museum