Are there any legtimate Alchemy masters out there?

The prime goal of the alchemist was to transmute lead into gold.
The problem is that they knew little to nothing about physics and though they this could be accomplished by means of chemical reactions.
Lead has 82 protons and Gold has 79. Scientists today can remove the necessary protons and turn lead into gold, but the process costs more than the value of the gold they produce.

Interesting note:

There is an earlier report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a reaction for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.

chemistry.about.com...

The real alchemists today work at CERN.
Wish I had paid more attention in physics class I might be on the cutting edge of science instead of just an average grunt.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by XeroOne

What I'm getting at is I've yet to see anyone demonstrate a process and produce something tangible.

Of course you haven't seen, you figure your mind and its 'lead' contents are somehow separated from any demontration of any process you observe. As if a magic glass wall separates subject from object. You fail to realize the scope of the inner alchemy...fail to realize your inner psi and its connection to everyone and everything.

You've been suckered by scientism and you're too blinded to see it.

edit on 2-8-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Nope. I do understand the connectedness that exists between everything in the Universe, and have always known about the observer's role in the experiment. We don't know whether the observer determines the outcome, or whether the observer's merely experiencing the manifestation of one outcome from many possibilities, but the relationship is there. This is something mainstream science has recognised for decades now, even if it doesn't understand why yet.

But it's also known that repeatable and tested processes result in predictable outcomes, and I haven't come across one in alchemy. Without that process, alchemy cannot be a science. It's more of an art. Or a philosophy.

Originally posted by Sparky63
The prime goal of the alchemist was to transmute lead into gold.
The problem is that they knew little to nothing about physics and though they this could be accomplished by means of chemical reactions.
Lead has 82 protons and Gold has 79. Scientists today can remove the necessary protons and turn lead into gold, but the process costs more than the value of the gold they produce.

Interesting note:

There is an earlier report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a reaction for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.

chemistry.about.com...

Yes, the transmutation from uranium to lead is also proven through the decay (or loss) or particles. I didn't know the atoms of lead and gold were so similar, though.

Originally posted by XeroOne

Originally posted by Sparky63
The prime goal of the alchemist was to transmute lead into gold.
The problem is that they knew little to nothing about physics and though they this could be accomplished by means of chemical reactions.
Lead has 82 protons and Gold has 79. Scientists today can remove the necessary protons and turn lead into gold, but the process costs more than the value of the gold they produce.

Interesting note:

There is an earlier report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a reaction for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.

chemistry.about.com...

Yes, the transmutation from uranium to lead is also proven through the decay (or loss) or particles. I didn't know the atoms of lead and gold were so similar, though.

With our increased understanding of the atomic structure of atoms it is even more tantalizing to consider transmutation. Just remove 3 protons and you successfully turn lead into gold. I can see why men in the past became obsessed with trying to accomplish this.

I view alchemy as the holy grail of science.. it's never really been successful.. but as the poster above me pointed out, with advances in science it might one day prove to be a reality .. but it won't be known as alchemy, it will just be science..

On the topic, if you've not heard of Comte Saint-Germain, the immortal count .. it's worthy of a few google searches.. I personally don't believe the story .. I file it away with urban legends like Spring Heeled Jack... but it's still a fun thing to research.. he was apparently a real man.. and he was allegedly an alchemist who found the secret of immortality

I'd email that idiot Jay Widener, he has all the alchemical answers you want.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


Hi Destroy

You wrote: QUOTE

"In the middle ages there were many "secret" alchemy practitioners, but they didn't accomplish much through their alchemy. It was rumored that alchemists could transmute ordinary materials into gold, but this was a lie.."

UNQUOTE

Interestingly Sir Isaac Newton wrote more than 1,000,000 words (most of which have survived intact in various places in England, America & Israel) on his wide-reaching Alchemical experiments with transmutation of metals (from c. 1668 to 1697) and apparently by 1690 had enough success in transmuting certain 'metals' (including 'Quicksilver' what we today call Mercury) into 'Alchemical gold' that the British Government made him head of the Mint in London.

Apparently his early experiments produced 'gold' that was only 90 to 91 percent pure and it took him a long time to get it to 98.5 to 99.5 percent pure gold; ditto for the silver he allegedly successfullty transmuted. So he knew the real thing from the not so real - which is why he was probably given the job....unless he just knew too much about transmutation, and it was a 'bribe' by the British govt to keep his mouth shut.

To make lead into gold (in modern language) means you need to somehow knock off at least 3 protons from Lead (Pb) - I suppose the 8 neutrons difference between Pb and Au wouldn't matter - and to accomplish that very difficult feat, the Alchemists had to perform (apparently) several dozen arcane steps in (highly secret) order for several months of low and high flame heating within special furnaces etc.

Most of the Alchemical books from c. 700 CE to 1900 CE are written in code with the 'steps' deliberately placed out of order 'to keep non-initiates out' of the club.

Newton's long and arduous Alchemical experiments over a 25 year period (read: trying to survive on 3 hours sleep a day for years) came at a hefty price however, including two nervous breakdowns and his death allegedly from a form of Mercury poisoning.

Apparently the process of transmutation requires an internal (i.e. in parallel) 'transmutation of the spirit of the practitioner' as well while performing the Great Work - and this failure of Newton's 'spiritual development' to keep pace with is intellectual achievements during his 25 years of alchmeical experimentations might have been the reason for his numerous breakdowns.

Remember: the word Laboratory comes from TWO latin words = LABOR (work) and ORARE (to pray) = and most Alchemists had a shrine in their Alchemcial Labs for meditation which 'raised their cone of power' to achieve the transmutation (what we would today call, 'electron swapping').

In September 1922, in a laboratory at Sarcelles and in the presence of the painter Julien Champagne and the chemist Gaston Sauvage, Canseliet himself made an alchemical transmutation of 100 grammes of gold using a minute quantity of the Powder of Projection given to him by his teacher.

The account seems the plainest possible statement of a purely physical event. Alchemists however, warn repeatedly that when their descriptions seem plainest the camouflage factor is highest.

The alerted reader will certainly consider here that a gasworks is a site where a volatile substance is produced from a heavy mineral and will recall that alchemy is a process of 'separating the fine from the gross'

There have been a number of other 'successful' transmuters in history, e.g. Seaborg had been successful in transmuting a small quantity of lead to gold recently which was confirmed by two labs - but most of the successful transmuters have gone underground - generally only the 'blowers' (i.e. Alchemical fakers) throughout history are EVER known to the general public.

I think the list of successful transmuters in history is at least 500 but some of their successes might have been exagerated (e.g. Nicholas Flamel in France) ...

Throughout the whole European record of Alchemy, its genuine practitioners appear to have been under certain obligations which may in fact apply to 'artists' in the Work of every age.


The indications provided must be in code and the code must be self cancelling; that is, an inquirer who does not possess the first secret must be infallibly prevented from discovering the second. 'Unto him that hath . . .' is nowhere better exemplified than in the attempt to study alchemical texts

reply to post by AthlonSavage


Jay Weidner has commented that there are about 100,000 people using the Philosophers Stone. This is a process to concentrate chi or prana. I remember this from an interview but do not remember any more details.

yes I believe there was one (even got a mention in harry potter)
his name was nicholas flamel (not sure spelled right)

and he supposedly possesed the philosiphers stone (i kid you not lol)

it was not a stone so to say but more a chemical compound that would convert lead into heavier metals
such as gold

google his name if you think im full of it

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
Actually no transforming things into other things with the wave of a hand is not alchemy, it's solid miracle working, straight up magic. It lacks the methodological approach undertaken by so called alchemists.

edit on 2/8/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

with all due respect, i never said transforming things into other things with the wave of the hand is alchemy. i was responding to the OP who used the Jesus fish story reference. im far too open minded (question everything) to concluded its absolutely this or objectively that! (though a number of posts on the first page seem to present a narrow stereotypical western mindset view of alchemy). i put up a number of videos (documentary called "the alchemical dream") in the first page from my nascent investigations that show my thinkings on alchemy. if people were to really dig into that documentary and rebut from there i would appreciate that instead of rebutting from something i never said.

reply to post by reficul

me thinks me thinks the original poster is hooked on a video game and has no clue!!!
as well as the scads of replies by the other members!
what is the average age here? 20!!!???

Please don't assume that being 20 automatically equates with being foolish, immature, or ignorant.

reply to post by AthlonSavage


Actually alchemy is like a religion. It can teach many things. its not like chemistry thats where people are wrong. Like the above said their might be a posibility when it will be used again but they wont call it alchemy. maybe cause of fame or something

reply to post by AthlonSavage


Actually there is a whole subculture of modern day Alchemist.
I have meet a number of them, and here in America I was present in the early days when David Hudson was promoting his ideas of superconductivity via Mono Atomic Gold that came from his work with alchemy texts that told the process from the substances red, green, black and the famous White gold Powder.

Was fascinating to get to know him, and sad of what naturally occurred since regarding this story.

There is more to this than the MSM will admit, hell even the Ones in the midst of it all conflict in details, but there is some great thinking going on,, even if it is on the Edge of science and ridiculed as hokum bunk.

Originally posted by rollsthepaul
reply to post by AthlonSavage

 

Jay Weidner has commented that there are about 100,000 people using the Philosophers Stone. This is a process to concentrate chi or prana. I remember this from an interview but do not remember any more details.

Imagine that, a full blown pathological liar making sheet up.

What next?

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


While browsing this interesting thread, I should point out OTHER TYPES of alchemy
consisting of more esoteric physical reactions than mere chemistry such as
LERN (Low Energy Nuclear Reactions) which actually CAN turn Lead into Gold.

Low Energy Nuclear Reaction primer:
en.wikipedia.org...

...or...

The Hutchison Effect:
www.damninteresting.com...

...or...

Sonoluminescence:
en.wikipedia.org...

In short, using HUGE amount of electromagnetic or acoustic energy in order
to create harmonics that can cause cascading power multiplier effects or
nuclear-level binding energy failures CAN cause transmutation of small
amounts of matter at Planck's length levels.

While you might get X-number of Pb (Lead) atoms transmuted into Au (Gold!)
and thus may not exactly be the great money-maker everyone is expecting,
IT IS CONSIDERED TO BE ALCHEMY!

The "Hutchison Effect" videos are most illuminating since there is a
CLEAR DEMONSTRATION at the molecular and larger levels that an
EM (Electromagentic) field is CAUSING a cascading failure of binding
energies....be they simple frictional binding failure, Van Der Waals or
Coloumb forces failure, and even Nuclear Binding Energy force failure!

This means that ALCHEMY, in the classical sense, is TRULY POSSIBLE
if you stuff enough power in a small space...the problem is that the final
result ain't worth the money that it costs in terms of energy requirements
(i.e. the electrical bill) or the reactant material costs! So it's a negative value
return your investment!

Once nuclear fusion gets more portable and cheaper ONLY THEN will we truly
be able to turn massive amounts of lead into gold...which then, of course, such
a feat immediately reduces it's value to the buying public as a precious metal.

So when ANY OF YOU DO find out how to turn lead into gold.....KEEP IT A SECRET
and use it to accumulate CASH in order BUY LAND, BUILDINGS and COMPANIES which
will THEN allow you to be richer than Bill Gates! Only when you've accumulated your
wealth in HARD GOODS, CASH AND PROPERTY INTO THE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS
do you finally tell your secret!

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


First right answer of the thread. There is a lot more but you got the basics of it.

if one were to watch that documentary i cited... (its long so i understand, but since people are on the topic its very relevant and it supplements what some others are saying here plus way more). in that doc it mentions shamans are not looking for the philosophers stone! because they already have it. its not a material item. its not materialist. it merges the inner and the outer. as above so below. the spririt/esoteric with the earth. the waking life and the dream world are not separate.

this is from trying to understand/school myself more on what its not. (to really know what it is i probably have to study my whole life not sure.) i don't claim to have the answer but i have opinions.

reply to post by AthlonSavage


Pisscrystals

Reading through thread there are some emerging opinions on what Alchemy is, its origins and relationship to chemistry which might be fair to assume a description for it as a more modern successor to Alchemy. A notable discernable line between the old and new science it appears the later is much less secretative about the processes and methods it uses to transmute material properties. In modern chemistry there are obvious and easy to find open documented processes for which any practioner who has access to, and with the required raw materials and skills available at hand, can apply repeatable procedures to achieve predictable and quantifiable outcomes of output.

Im fasinated by some things highlighted in these discussions, one of these being Issac Newtons being a practioner of Alchemy. That surprised me alot as i always thought he was left brain dominated analytical. Another interesting concept that stood out related to the observers point of reference and its influence on cause and effect. Does the observer cause the effect to happen or it via a manifestion by a external source where many random outcomes are possible.

The idea of Shamans being a potential type of alchemist was fascinating also, and added a new dimension to the opinions raised. The idea their abilities allow them to breakdown the barrier between conscious and sub-conscious reality, and by doing so allowing them to augment the functions of a Philosophers stone with something non-material. A modern analogy comes to mind here. A common practice of modern technology to replace many hardware analogue driven functions with digitial software. The change of a physical hardware process to software controlled with intelligent allgorithum Binary code.

Im begiing to suspect there is really something to Alchemy and that the purpose of its secretative nature is done deliberately to throw the average man off its trial of what it has its true purpose. Its true purpose possibly being to set up a conduit for allowing the transmuting of consciousness bounded/packaged in a physical structure e.g the body into their energy equivalents. I postulate the ultimate aim of the philosophers stone was to achieve pure and "permanent" transmutation of the human being into his energy equivalent.


I will have to retreat to my couch and ponder this over.