FBI raids homes in search of "anti-government literature"

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Dizrael

second, if the punishment is so leinent people dont care and commit the crime anyways, then i guess that means the crime DOESNT fit the punishment at all.

so maybe we need to make a few examples.

Ok I'm sorry if you didn't post that. Strange, maybe the quote boxes were mixed up?

What do you mean if the punishment isn't harsh enough to stop the crime's commission we need to up the ante?

Murder still happens even though we have the death penalty.
Should we make examples of these petty criminals and put the death penalty on even the smallest of crimes to "stop them from happening"?

Obviously, these punishments do not deter crime at all. Had they, murder would never had been a problem historically as death was a likely result if caught.

There is no logical reason for you to wish such negative upon your countrymen, unless of course, you hate your political opponents so much that you are willing to sacrifice your own freedoms just to watch them rot in jail.

This self-defeating mentality will lead us all to prison for the most absurd of things, like belonging to the wrong political group.

i dont HATE anyone. but i am tired of the crime and needless bull that happens. we either need to "up the ante" as you said, or figure something else out. this stuff needs to stop. im all for freedom of speech and protesting. but we, as humans, make what i call the "stupid human herd" when we get together in those situations and things get out of hand. it only takes 1 or 2 to say, lets tip this cop car, before the whole croud is up in arms and police are in riot gear and things like this happen after the fact.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Remember the Haymarket Affair in Chicago May 4 1886???

In the internationally publicized legal proceedings that followed, eight anarchists were convicted of conspiracy. The evidence was that none of defendants on trial had thrown the bomb.[4][5][6] Seven were sentenced to death and one to a term of 15 years in prison.

Proven NOT GUILTY, but executed simply because they were anarchists?!

And shortly after this happened, they actually started Deporting Legal immigrants for being anarchists.

Read the history books people.
History repeats if you don't know how to avoid it.

edit on 1-8-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)

it sucks bad, but CLASSIC case of "guilty by association". i dont like it, but it happens.

reply to post by Dizrael

back to another post i guess you didnt read, i was refering to the warrant, it says anti-goverment literature OR MATERIAL, i specified, you decided to ignore what i actually typed, thats your fault.

It is not I ignoring anything, but rather you. You seem to want to ignore the LITERATURE aspect of it and conflate that with MATERIAL. The two would have not been listed separately with the conjunction OR if they meant "literature" to be "material".

Civil Disobedience can very easily be construed to be "anti-government" literature.

Again, if games of semantics is the best you have then you have nothing at all.

Originally posted by Dizrael
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

aaaaand none of that has anything to do with the rest of the stuff on the warrant, OR them commiting the crime.

You don't know if they committed any crimes.

You decided they were 100% guilty because you oppose their political viewpoints.

And you refuse to question or stand up against this overbearing iron fist tactics?

You do realize your views fit in China rather than the USA?
If you really hate freedom than you are more than welcome to relocate to a more suitable "Utopia" of violence, coercion, and state-worship.

I hate to use that cliche, but I am serious.

Originally posted by Dizrael

why the H___ would they do a search and seizure for proof they had nothing to do with it? the search warrant is granted to search for evidence. its up to the defending attorney, with the help of the defendants, to provide proof otherwise. get a clue.

Guilty til proven innocent eh?

I hope when they get their day in court the judge will see it for what it is [Gestapo type witch hunt] and throw this crap out. Their supposed crime is not worthy of their overwhelming response IMO.

Originally posted by Dizrael

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Remember the Haymarket Affair in Chicago May 4 1886???

In the internationally publicized legal proceedings that followed, eight anarchists were convicted of conspiracy. The evidence was that none of defendants on trial had thrown the bomb.[4][5][6] Seven were sentenced to death and one to a term of 15 years in prison.

Proven NOT GUILTY, but executed simply because they were anarchists?!

And shortly after this happened, they actually started Deporting Legal immigrants for being anarchists.

Read the history books people.
History repeats if you don't know how to avoid it.

edit on 1-8-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)

it sucks bad, but CLASSIC case of "guilty by association". i dont like it, but it happens.

So when we round up all the govt criminals and put them on trial, including war crimes trials, can we put you in there with them as "guilty by association"??

This sword has two edges, you better be really careful where you are going with your train of thought.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Dizrael

 

back to another post i guess you didnt read, i was refering to the warrant, it says anti-goverment literature OR MATERIAL, i specified, you decided to ignore what i actually typed, thats your fault.

It is not I ignoring anything, but rather you. You seem to want to ignore the LITERATURE aspect of it and conflate that with MATERIAL. The two would have not been listed separately with the conjunction OR if they meant "literature" to be "material".

Civil Disobedience can very easily be construed to be "anti-government" literature.

Again, if games of semantics is the best you have then you have nothing at all.

they didnt mean it to be material, they wanted BOTH, but as you said they need to be a little more specific that just literature. as i already posted. im really done arguing with you over this, i just dont get where you are trying to take this.

i agree with what they did to the extent, crimes cant go unpunished, they had a list of things they expected to find there, it was in the warrant, and you dont seem to understand that.

reply to post by muzzleflash


sorry you didnt understand me, i started that with it sucks bad, because i dont agree with it. thats just how it goes sometimes.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Dizrael

why the H___ would they do a search and seizure for proof they had nothing to do with it? the search warrant is granted to search for evidence. its up to the defending attorney, with the help of the defendants, to provide proof otherwise. get a clue.

Guilty til proven innocent eh?

I hope when they get their day in court the judge will see it for what it is [Gestapo type witch hunt] and throw this crap out. Their supposed crime is not worthy of their overwhelming response IMO.

If they really defaced property than I don't see why a slap on the wrist couldn't handle it.
Maybe order them to pay for repair costs or something.

You know, fairness, law and justice.
Common sense.

The problem with the whole thing is that it's over the top and has obvious political overtones.
It's like using a nuclear bomb to take out a convoy of 5 vehicles...

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Dizrael

why the H___ would they do a search and seizure for proof they had nothing to do with it? the search warrant is granted to search for evidence. its up to the defending attorney, with the help of the defendants, to provide proof otherwise. get a clue.

Guilty til proven innocent eh?

I hope when they get their day in court the judge will see it for what it is [Gestapo type witch hunt] and throw this crap out. Their supposed crime is not worthy of their overwhelming response IMO.

no... innocent until proven guilty, but to prove guilty they need this thing called evidence. which is where the search warrant comes in.

The search was conducted for an investigation for "Conspiracy to destroy government property", I would think anti-government literature or material could provide a certain amount of evidence.

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
The search was conducted for an investigation for "Conspiracy to destroy government property", I would think anti-government literature or material could provide a certain amount of evidence.

thats what i would think.

Originally posted by Dizrael

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
The search was conducted for an investigation for "Conspiracy to destroy government property", I would think anti-government literature or material could provide a certain amount of evidence.

thats what i would think.

Think being the verb in that statement

Originally posted by Dizrael

i dont HATE anyone. but i am tired of the crime and needless bull that happens. we either need to "up the ante" as you said, or figure something else out. this stuff needs to stop. im all for freedom of speech and protesting. but we, as humans, make what i call the "stupid human herd" when we get together in those situations and things get out of hand. it only takes 1 or 2 to say, lets tip this cop car, before the whole croud is up in arms and police are in riot gear and things like this happen after the fact.

So here we are having our freedoms stripped from us daily...

And you think a few spray paint vandals are what is wrong with this nation?

Please, get your priorities straight.

Paint damage only costs a couple of dollars to fix.
Freedom is priceless and irreplaceable in comparison.

And just fyi, most of us are aware that it is a proven fact that most violent individuals at protests these days are agent provocateurs who are actually govt hardliners pretending to be normal protesters to justify a violent crack down on legal assembly.

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
The search was conducted for an investigation for "Conspiracy to destroy government property", I would think anti-government literature or material could provide a certain amount of evidence.

Full blown felony conspiracy charges for some spray paint graffiti?

Meanwhile, there are real criminal conspiracies and organized criminal syndicates all around us...but they don't really get in trouble because they have the govt in their pockets.

Can't believe a little paint turns into 10+year sentences in prison.

This nation is so lost.....

reply to post by Dizrael

i agree with what they did to the extent, crimes cant go unpunished, they had a list of things they expected to find there, it was in the warrant, and you dont seem to understand that.

I most assuredly understand both that you are in support of this odious show of force by the Justice Department and that they expect to be able to use "anti government or anarchistic literature" against these people. Destruction of property is not so hard to establish mens rea. It does not require a warrant authorizing the FBI to collect literature to establish this. It's not as if someone who destroys property can reasonably argue they did not see their act as a crime. An effective prosecutor doesn't need to point to a persons collection of Marx and Engle's writings along with The Anarchists Cookbook to establish that the suspect destroyed property with the intent to destroy property.

Written materials such as correspondence showing a clear intent is one thing. A copy of Che Guevara's journal is another thing entirely.

You cannot have it both ways and insist you are in support of the rule of law when it comes to arresting and prosecuting vandals and other criminals but screw the rule of law when it comes to Constitutional restraint.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Dizrael

i dont HATE anyone. but i am tired of the crime and needless bull that happens. we either need to "up the ante" as you said, or figure something else out. this stuff needs to stop. im all for freedom of speech and protesting. but we, as humans, make what i call the "stupid human herd" when we get together in those situations and things get out of hand. it only takes 1 or 2 to say, lets tip this cop car, before the whole croud is up in arms and police are in riot gear and things like this happen after the fact.

So here we are having our freedoms stripped from us daily...

And you think a few spray paint vandals are what is wrong with this nation?

Please, get your priorities straight.

Paint damage only costs a couple of dollars to fix.
Freedom is priceless and irreplaceable in comparison.

And just fyi, most of us are aware that it is a proven fact that most violent individuals at protests these days are agent provocateurs who are actually govt hardliners pretending to be normal protesters to justify a violent crack down on legal assembly.

i never said "a few spray paint vandals are what is wrong with this nation".

Freedom isnt priceless, it costs American Soldiers/Airmen/Marines and the lot their lives EVERYDAY, believe me, i know the cost.

"agent provocatuers"? are you trying to tell me someone in the group of spraypainters was a govt hardliner? really?

of all the conspiracy theories i might entertain, thats no where near the list.

And yes we ARE talking about felony charges because :

Criminal Conspiracy + 1 felony = felony conspiracy charges.

And destruction of even one little tiny piece of 'govt property', can quickly turn into that needed felony charge.

Also why would the FBI raid someone if there wasn't a supposed felony involved?

Originally posted by Dizrael


Freedom isnt priceless, it costs American Soldiers/Airmen/Marines and the lot their lives EVERYDAY, believe me, i know the cost.

I disagree 100%.

There is no price on even 1 American Soldier.

One single drop of that patriots blood is worth more than all of the money on Earth.

So freedom IS priceless. The cost paid was beyond astronomical.
And here you are more ready than ever to flush it down the drain to "make an example" out of your political opponents.

What happens when the other side decides to make examples out of their opponents?
See, this is a slippery slope to doom.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
The search was conducted for an investigation for "Conspiracy to destroy government property", I would think anti-government literature or material could provide a certain amount of evidence.

Full blown felony conspiracy charges for some spray paint graffiti?

Meanwhile, there are real criminal conspiracies and organized criminal syndicates all around us...but they don't really get in trouble because they have the govt in their pockets.

Can't believe a little paint turns into 10+year sentences in prison.

This nation is so lost.....

Honestly didn't read that, stopped when I saw the charge and the title of the thread, will go back and read more.

ETA: Went back and read the article in the OP, nothing about graffiti, not sure where you got this info, I basically support the occupy movement, and try to follow things, apparently I missed this one. Still think the search warrant was valid for the charges.