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Originally posted by schuyler
A fairly elementary point suitable for UFO 101. Hundreds of people have made the same point for years on this site, albeit with fewer words. Indeed, one could claim your entire post is a straw man argument in itself. You have to claim skeptics assume aliens before you can make your argument. That's an assumption and you provide no evidence, no examples to support your case.
In fact, I can't say I know of anyone who has used this convoluted logic to debunk UFOs. There are plenty of skeptics who will say, "That's not a UFO." and suggest alternatives. In that kind of assertion, aliens aren't even brought up. And plenty of people must point out that "UFOs don't imply aliens," rather the opposite of your assertion. In other words, there may be UFOs that have nothing to do with aliens. That's a perfectly reasonable assertion without discounting the possibility that UFOs MIGHT be associated with aliens.
Your argument doesn't have much merit at this stage. I think you need to examine what it is you are trying to claim here.
Originally posted by Sinny
I knew this thread would be yours
Gonna linksy this one because I loved your two well written posts:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I actually think if the said object really is Unidentified, that classes as "alien* of some sort anayway.
It doednt actumatically mean little green men, I know this as all three daylight sighting I've had are clearly unmanned vechical/probes.
So as to what intelligence they were under still still open for debate.
I think you'll find because this thread subject requires thought, and lacks pretty picures, it may go largely unnoticed.
I've noticed on ATS serious alternative views on the alien matter go undiscussed, maybe people don't like to face the actual reality of the matter?
Originally posted by Brighter
In order to speak intelligently and have a meaningful discussion about any issue, you must first define your main concepts.
One problem is that newcomers to these fields are not clear on their definitions, and problems thus arise.
I will define the UFO Hypothesis as follows:
The UFO Hypothesis: There exists a class of aerial objects exhibiting almost unbelievable flight characteristics.
A similar but distinct issue exists regarding the presence of aliens on our planet. Let's refer to this as the Alien Hypothesis.
The Alien Hypothesis: There exists on this planet an alien presence.
It should be clear the the UFO Hypothesis and the Alien Hypothesis are distinct. In other words, the existence of UFOs has nothing necessarily to do with the existence of aliens.
Originally posted by cripmeister
Originally posted by Brighter
In order to speak intelligently and have a meaningful discussion about any issue, you must first define your main concepts.
One problem is that newcomers to these fields are not clear on their definitions, and problems thus arise.
I will define the UFO Hypothesis as follows:
The UFO Hypothesis: There exists a class of aerial objects exhibiting almost unbelievable flight characteristics.
A similar but distinct issue exists regarding the presence of aliens on our planet. Let's refer to this as the Alien Hypothesis.
The Alien Hypothesis: There exists on this planet an alien presence.
It should be clear the the UFO Hypothesis and the Alien Hypothesis are distinct. In other words, the existence of UFOs has nothing necessarily to do with the existence of aliens.
Defining and agreeing upon these two concepts is very important I agree. I think I see what your main point is here but I am not sure what you mean by UFO Hypothesis? I never heard that expression. To me UFO is a term used for something that defies mundane explanation. Also it seems to me that you may be confusing the Alien Hypothesis with the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis or ETH? The ETH proposes that some UFOs are alien craft.
Originally posted by Brighter
In order to speak intelligently and have a meaningful discussion about any issue, you must first define your main concepts.
One problem is that newcomers to these fields are not clear on their definitions, and problems thus arise.
I will define the UFO Hypothesis as follows:
The UFO Hypothesis: There exists a class of aerial objects exhibiting almost unbelievable flight characteristics.
A similar but distinct issue exists regarding the presence of aliens on our planet. Let's refer to this as the Alien Hypothesis.
The Alien Hypothesis: There exists on this planet an alien presence.
It should be clear the the UFO Hypothesis and the Alien Hypothesis are distinct. In other words, the existence of UFOs has nothing necessarily to do with the existence of aliens.
Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
Originally posted by Brighter
In order to speak intelligently and have a meaningful discussion about any issue, you must first define your main concepts.
One problem is that newcomers to these fields are not clear on their definitions, and problems thus arise.
I will define the UFO Hypothesis as follows:
The UFO Hypothesis: There exists a class of aerial objects exhibiting almost unbelievable flight characteristics.
A similar but distinct issue exists regarding the presence of aliens on our planet. Let's refer to this as the Alien Hypothesis.
The Alien Hypothesis: There exists on this planet an alien presence.
It should be clear the the UFO Hypothesis and the Alien Hypothesis are distinct. In other words, the existence of UFOs has nothing necessarily to do with the existence of aliens.
I'm not sure about your logic here.
There is an object that exhibits unknown flight characteristics.
a. it's not alien
b. it's alien
"UFO Hypothesis" seems odd since we can all agree that something is unidentified in the first place and then we apply our various theories....it's a bird, balloon, reflection...whatever until one explaination fits. one hypothesis is that it's alien...
In general, UFO sightings vary in superficial respects, but they for the most part exhibit a common set of properties such as attaining unheard of speeds, making seemingly impossible turns, disappearing and appearing in another position, hovering in mid-air, and doing all of that while making no discernible sound.
Originally posted by markymint
Very wise! I've skipped to the reply. Replies were mind-numbing. My question would be that what you say, seems to imply that even when you are happy in the knowledge of inexplicable movement of aerial phenomena, and when you are initially making judgements on its origin, and of course the first and most likely 'thought' would be aliens - yet that coming to terms and ideology behind the UFO still leads you to make "straw man" mistakes? It can take a while to learn new views, like organic origin, inter-dimensional, everything else... I agree with what you say, just need a bit more clarity on the acceptance side. It's clear what you're saying about those that show fundamental problems even in non-acceptance. Meh, does that make sense?
In all fairness, a forum is needed where there is no "doubt" of the existence of UFO's (not aliens). At least with that one notion abolished real critical thinking can begin.edit on 31-7-2012 by markymint because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
Originally posted by Brighter
In order to speak intelligently and have a meaningful discussion about any issue, you must first define your main concepts.
One problem is that newcomers to these fields are not clear on their definitions, and problems thus arise.
I will define the UFO Hypothesis as follows:
The UFO Hypothesis: There exists a class of aerial objects exhibiting almost unbelievable flight characteristics.
A similar but distinct issue exists regarding the presence of aliens on our planet. Let's refer to this as the Alien Hypothesis.
The Alien Hypothesis: There exists on this planet an alien presence.
It should be clear the the UFO Hypothesis and the Alien Hypothesis are distinct. In other words, the existence of UFOs has nothing necessarily to do with the existence of aliens.
I'm not sure about your logic here.
There is an object that exhibits unknown flight characteristics.
a. it's not alien
b. it's alien
"UFO Hypothesis" seems odd since we can all agree that something is unidentified in the first place and then we apply our various theories....it's a bird, balloon, reflection...whatever until one explaination fits. one hypothesis is that it's alien...
from wiki: "A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon."
...the UFO being the phenomenon....so saying "UFO hypothesis" is like saying "The Observed Phenomenon Explaination" or like "that thing there that we dont know what it is explaination" or "the explaination that it is unexplainable"
edit on 31-7-2012 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by Orkojoker
I follow the logic. For me its semantics. Lets take this case: JAL Flight 1628 Over Alaska
So the OP would say that the UFO Hypothesis would fit here...that there was an actual object there thats unidentified....what is described to be seen in the case is the "phenomenon" the "hypothesis" or explaination would be that it is a real physical object of an unexplainable and unknown origin.
Originally posted by humphreysjim
It is the believers side that assumes UFOs are actually aliens, to such a degree that UFO barely even means "Unidentified Flying Object" anymore, but is more or less synonymous with "Alien Spacecraft". Skeptics are constantly needing to point this fact out.
Originally posted by humphreysjim
As for your initial statement that UFO's display "almost unbelievable" properties, that is completely vague and subjective - essentially meaningless drivel.
VIOLENT AND ERRATIC MANEUVERS
-"tacking and veering"
-"streaked...series of violent maneuvers."
-high speed, "zigzagged"
-hovered, bobbed around arcing back and forth, up and down
-climbed rapidly, stopped 10 seconds, dived, leveled off, moved away horizontally
-dove, leveled off, sharp left turn, climbed steeply and shot away
-erratic darting side to side, undulating course, circled.
-hovered, violent jerks up & down, rocked back & forth, darted away
-hovered 8 minutes, arced back & forth about 15º, returning to orignal position, slowly dropped out of sight
-two spun around each other rapidly, joined by two others, moved jerkily when moving slowly
-bobbed up & down, back & forth, maintained 3º separation
-one swooped down, hovered, zigzagged & shot away; second hovered, tilted up & shot away
-moved with regular jerks, visible one hour, satellite objects visible at one point
-discs moved in pairs, zigzagged
-hovered, darted erratically in various directions, up & down...
-rapid pulsation, square turns, sudden stops & bursts of speed
-moved erratically up & down, hovered 10 minutes...
-sped into area, hovered, bobbed around sky for several hours; tracked by radar, seen visually
-steady course, sudden reversal, violent zigzagging...
-hovered, vibrated up & down, side to side
-hovered 2 minutes, split into 2 parts which moved jerkily in opposite directions at high speed, came back together several times, then 3 parts...
Originally posted by Brighter
I think you may have missed the entire point of my original post, which is that, when discussing the UFO Hypothesis, we should not even focus on arguments that involve aliens. Any proper argument for the UFO Hypothesis need not reference aliens at all, as the observational data alone is sufficient to construct the proper argument. In fact, your insistence on "provid[ing] arguments against the UFOs-As-Aliens hypothesis" is to precisely to commit the same exact straw man argument that I spent the entire first post trying to explain.
Originally posted by Brighter
But this is precisely not to make any progress, as all you have done is cut down a straw man. Although I suppose, in a very watered-down sense, you could count that as progress. This is not to mention the fact that, in order to even successfully make such an argument, you would have to provide an independent argument for the fact that aliens are not likely visiting us. But again, even if you could produce such an argument, all you would be doing is cutting down a straw man.
Originally posted by Orkojoker
Originally posted by humphreysjim
As for your initial statement that UFO's display "almost unbelievable" properties, that is completely vague and subjective - essentially meaningless drivel.
Here's a brief sampling of the kind of thing the OP is talking about, taken from investigated reports:
VIOLENT AND ERRATIC MANEUVERS
-"tacking and veering"
-"streaked...series of violent maneuvers."
-high speed, "zigzagged"
-hovered, bobbed around arcing back and forth, up and down
-climbed rapidly, stopped 10 seconds, dived, leveled off, moved away horizontally
-dove, leveled off, sharp left turn, climbed steeply and shot away
-erratic darting side to side, undulating course, circled.
-hovered, violent jerks up & down, rocked back & forth, darted away
-hovered 8 minutes, arced back & forth about 15º, returning to orignal position, slowly dropped out of sight
-two spun around each other rapidly, joined by two others, moved jerkily when moving slowly
-bobbed up & down, back & forth, maintained 3º separation
-one swooped down, hovered, zigzagged & shot away; second hovered, tilted up & shot away
-moved with regular jerks, visible one hour, satellite objects visible at one point
-discs moved in pairs, zigzagged
-hovered, darted erratically in various directions, up & down...
-rapid pulsation, square turns, sudden stops & bursts of speed
-moved erratically up & down, hovered 10 minutes...
-sped into area, hovered, bobbed around sky for several hours; tracked by radar, seen visually
-steady course, sudden reversal, violent zigzagging...
-hovered, vibrated up & down, side to side
-hovered 2 minutes, split into 2 parts which moved jerkily in opposite directions at high speed, came back together several times, then 3 parts...
source
Therefore: all UFOs must be alien life.