Lakewood (Colorado) Cake Shop Refuses Wedding Cake To Gay Couple.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by crazydaysandnights

Originally posted by NavyDoc
So when you can't debate the point, you go after the person? I'll slow down the typing just for you. Would that make you happy?

I didn't notice you having a point needing to be debated.

I had a point. It was wishing that people could present a factual basis for the allegation that the chicken sandwich company supports hate groups. So far no one has been able to provide said factual basis.

Is this enough factual basis for you?

equalitymatters.org...

reply to post by Raist

Just because someone sins does not mean I have any thing against them.

A long time ago I spent years in the religion forum here. So I am familiar with this take on things.

We might have to agree to disagree here.

As I still very much see this as having something directly against gays.

Sin = bad, wrong... potentially even worthy of hellire.

To view homosexuality as sin is saying there is something wrong and bad about something intrinsic to their nature. Something beyond their control.

If you say yes they are gay but they choose to act on it. They choose to express that sin. You still have something against gays. You are saying that if they act out what they naturally feel compelled to do they are being bad and wrong. You can change the wording around with Biblical terms but it doesn't change this.

If the Modern Churches had a religious stance against dark skinned people, and viewed them as sinful simply for being dark-skinned, I wonder if a religious person might say 'well I have nothing against blacks, we all sin, but they are CHOOSING to expose their skin by removing their robes'.

The issue with law is different in many places

Did you have any thoughts on the example I gave in the previous post? Concerning the hypothetical cake owner and the black couple. How do you think that would play out in court?

I cannot say that I have met a gay victim. At least not in this area.

Can they get married there? Can they donate blood? Do people stop, stare and make disgusted faces if they see two gay men giving eachother a romantic kiss in a restaurant?

I am willing to bet I can argue you have met gay victims where you live.

Around here (surprising to many) they are pretty accepted.

'pretty' being the operative word As opposed to just 'accepted'. There is a diference there. I am happy to hear in your area they are more accepted than many other places.

All those I have met were very nice down home and had a religious background. I reaaly enjoy their company and conversation.

Off topic but I'm curious what those religious gay people feel about the idea being gay in of itself is sinning. What did they say? What did they say when you told them you believed that?

Show me one instance where Jesus said to or ever did stone or burn a person for sinning.

This I don't understand.

Jesus didn't advocate violence but the Bible does.

I assume you don't isolate the small percentage of the Bible that is the 'Jesus parts', but believe the whole Bible to be the inspired Word of God. Or am I wrong here?

Well I hope this comes across as a simple debate. I am not trying to be confrontational and have enjoyed the discussion

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


LOL so much to cover I wish I was on my laptop much easier that way.

Anyhow I think you misunderstand the issue of knowing sin or you misunderstand my stance on it. We as humans have a nature to sin nothing we can do about it we desire sin it is our nature. I sin, I am not proud of my sin and when I do sin I am embracing the sin just as a homosexual would by committing the act and sinning. To have something against them would be to ignore the plank in my own eye.

I cannot hate them or I hate myself I cannot condemn them or I condemn myself. I am a sinner as everyone.e is I understand my sins and pray about my errors but I still make errors the only time we will ever be error free will be after death.

Sorry I sort of slipped off topic and ranted a bit I will pm you tomorrow with a better idea of her and my story when I am on my laptop.

Raist

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

They don't seem to know what to do with this touchy-feely stuff. The focus is usually on benefits or how the gays are whining for attention or claiming rights they don't deserve because they aren't like the god-fearing, child-producing normal people who clearly deserve to have real marriages.

A cold disconnect.

I have noticed this a lot myself! Actually I have noticed a bit from the pro-gay marriage side as well.

It puzzles me the focus on all these technical aspects when the most basic fundamental aspect seems to be passed over.

The humanity of it.

But you're right. I am inclined to agree with you that the anti-gay side intentionally ignores it by focusing on the other aspects. I guess our job is to push them in that corner and make them feel very uncomfortable with their feelings

I feel like sharing a story

I grew up in a care home for the medically fragile. It was run by my biological parents. We took in many many children with a range of health problems. Anything from sexual abuse to autism to a kidney transplant. Their parents either didn't want them or didn't have the medical knowledge to care or them (my parents do). Anyways... many of those kids had the same social worker. She came over to visit them at least once a week for years and years. Eventually we found out she was gay. It was a shock to my family more or less. I wasn't raised in a family that descrimiated against gays, pretty much the only thing encouraged in my family was medicine and being compassionate towards people that need help. Still, we are taught culturally to view being gay as abnormal (more so when this took place). For some in my family that hadn't really thought about it, but more or less accepted being gay as this abnormal thing, very much started to question it when someone we all loved and respected told us she was gay.

She ended up marrying a judge! Awesome When the law was passed here in CA she got married Then later as most know it got revoked.

Well one day her wife, partner, ex-wife (however it's to be viewed at this point?), got into a car accident and was admitted to the hospital. My family and I went to the hospital when we got the call. Our friend, the social worker, showed up to the hopsital totally distraught (of course). She was completely wrecked that her lover was injured (of course). It was horribly emotional seeing her. Well guess what? The hospital did NOT allow her to see her lover, a women she was once married to, because they were not married currently and were not family. Hospital policy.

Seeing her show up and seeing her denied that was profoundly emotional for everyone. It was just a slap in the face. A cold reminder.

I really feel people who are anti-gay rights are not openly exploring the extent of the situation and all the intricacies involved. They compartmentalize the issue to these specific key points. Like you mentioned earlier. And I think it's totally off mark and doesn't do the matter justice.

reply to post by hp1229


They could deny him based on a health code violations, which are enforced by your local government, and they would be covered by those same health code violations.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I should of been more precise. No one should be denied based on discriminatory practises. I am not talking about crazy customers and customer service. That is a whole different ball game. I spent many years in the service industry too, I know there are loons.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy


She ended up marrying a judge! Awesome

When the law was passed here in CA she got married

Then later as most know it got revoked.

FYI

Gays who got married in the small window of legal in CA - - - are still legally married in the state. Just not Federal - as no US gay marriage has Federal sanction.

The legal marriages were not revoked.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
The hospital did NOT allow her to see her lover, a women she was once married to, because they were not married currently and were not family. Hospital policy.

Seeing her show up and seeing her denied that was profoundly emotional for everyone. It was just a slap in the face. A cold reminder.

Yes. Lot's of horror stories. Fortunately President Obama made it mandatory for any hospital receiving Federal Funding to recognize a gay partner - - or any person the patient chooses to be with them.

Slow change - - but at least it is going in the right direction.

One reason I think this Chick-fil-A - - - - thing is blowing up - - - is because society is ready - - - and tired of the last major minority prejudice and denial of Equal Rights.

On my way to the Chick Fil A "kiss-a-chick" event for the lunch.

I don't see how this is a protest, it seems like more of a promotion! I'm hoping I can get through the drivethrough within my 1 hour allotted lunch. Apparently my co-workers that just got back said traffic is backed up for blocks.

ATTENTION ALL

Let's not forget the actual topic at hand please!

And let's not make it personal.

Thank you.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
On my way to the Chick Fil A "kiss-a-chick" event for the lunch.

I don't see how this is a protest, it seems like more of a promotion! I'm hoping I can get through the drivethrough within my 1 hour allotted lunch. Apparently my co-workers that just got back said traffic is backed up for blocks.

BTW - - I was reading some major gay news sites - - and they are very split on this method of protesting.

Many feel it is rude and too "in-your-face".

Others feel it is a fun peaceful protest.

Gays are not a group think.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by hp1229

 

They could deny him based on a health code violations, which are enforced by your local government, and they would be covered by those same health code violations.

Forget about the law and pretend that it didn't exist and that you were practicing in a country where such laws didn't exist What would be your personal reaction is what I'm interested in.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
On my way to the Chick Fil A "kiss-a-chick" event for the lunch.

Beware which 'chick' you kiss Eitherway, I support Chick Fil A.

Originally posted by Annee

Gays who got married in the small window of legal in CA - - - are still legally married in the state. Just not Federal - as no US gay marriage has Federal sanction.

The legal marriages were not revoked.

Thanks for the info I am confused then... so the hospital should not have been allowed to refuse her? Her wife was a judge, so I would think she'd be aware. Hmm.. I don't really know what came of it after that day, I should ask my mother. Maybe they married in another State.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Annee

Gays who got married in the small window of legal in CA - - - are still legally married in the state. Just not Federal - as no US gay marriage has Federal sanction.

The legal marriages were not revoked.

Thanks for the info

I am confused then... so the hospital should not have been allowed to refuse her? Her wife was a judge, so I would think she'd be aware. Hmm.. I don't really know what came of it after that day, I should ask my mother. Maybe they married in another State.

Yes - - if they were married in the state of CA when it was legal - - there should be no legal problem. This does not mean an individual nurse or administrator would not refuse the partner access. It still happens. Even though (I think last year) Obama made it mandatory for any hospital receiving government funding to allow who ever the patient wanted.

There is also the Unruh Civil Rights law in CA enacted in 1959.

The Unruh Civil Rights Act is a piece of California legislation that specifically outlaws discrimination based on age, sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, marital status, or sexual orientation. This law applies to all businesses, including but not limited to hotels and motel, restaurants, theaters, hospitals, barber and beauty shops, housing accommodations, and retail establishments. This law was enacted in 1959, and was named for the author Jesse M. Unruh. The Unruh Civil Rights Act is codified as California Civil Code section 51.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

I have noticed this a lot myself! Actually I have noticed a bit from the pro-gay marriage side as well.

It puzzles me the focus on all these technical aspects when the most basic fundamental aspect seems to be passed over.

Maybe it's easier to focus on the fairness/unfairness in the details - those are simpler things to consider than love and affection and sex

Seems like such a human thing to dislike and reject anything that seems too 'other'. We've come a long way - we think about these things now and begin to see that we're holding on to fears and prejudices and aversions that don't really mean anything. We're little by little letting go of some pretty primitive instincts and instead we think about things - we see them differently. I think it's only natural that with enough time we'll come to realize we're all more the same than we are different

Not everyone all at once or at the same time of course - but it will happen

I saw this today:
Nebraska Lesbian Mutilated in Anti-Gay Hate Crime
it's hard for me to comprehend - you know?

For those that don't understand what all this is about - it's about an end to this sort of thing - and a level of tolerance if acceptance truly isn't possible

A world where everyone is free to make the same choices and have the same opportunities - and be free.That's all - it's so simple