Lakewood (Colorado) Cake Shop Refuses Wedding Cake To Gay Couple.

How's this.

It's absurd

Lets say I belong to a group of people who believe sex with stuffed teddy bears should be legal and afforded equal civil rights.

Well right away they are not even sentient creatures. Using this analogy is ridiculous, but ill try.

Lets say this movement is huge, 500 million strong world wide.We want it to be considered morally acceptable to take our sex partner teddy bears to dinner with us

Okay.

That's a lot of people. I would say that it should go through rigorous thought among intellectuals and professionals throughout society. See what merit we can bring to the table to justify it. What reasons do you feel there are to support equal rights for human-teddy bear relationships and or marriage?

Just like what we do for gay rights, and what we did for interracial relationships.

Why would this or that be an exception? We all need to come together and reflect on what is the most morally correct understanding...

What if it wasn't teddy bears but robots that were so life like, they are deemed like Data from Star Trek as sentient beings.

Good, that analogy is not absurd Well same answer. We become aware of it. We think about it. We discuss it. We come to an understand and we encourage that understanding and change society to reflect it (i.e laws, cultural awareness, etc). However whatever that understanding is. Perhaps in this case I will be anti-robot rights. We shall see. The only connection I am making here to homosexuality however is simply that we as a society should reflect on it and evolve our moral understanding in response to it.

The idea is to change the very definition of morality

My my. You make it sound like morality is set in stone. Well I suppose it literally has been. But if we followed stone-age morality there would be many many many things that would be morally reprehensible to you and to me if allowed today! Morality grows, it changes. You know that and you already support that.

and make something that's not considered moral into something that is considered moral

Slavery was morally acceptable and now it's not. I fail to understand you issue with morality being "re-defined"?

.

Civil Rights issues, I can see,

And others see that this is a civil rights issue. Keep in mind I am not speaking withing the scope of 'the business owner and the cake' since you were not.

blacks should not be mistreated simply because of the color of their skin.

I agree.

Gay people should not be mistreated simply because they are gay

I agree.

but that's different than allowing them to change the very definition of morality itself. Even the blacks didn't seek to do that.

Clearly not the case, but maybe I am just really confused on what you mean by 're-defining'.

I am certain the civil rights movements for them were aiming to change our moral 'definitions'.

Wow.

Since this afternoon this thread was almost single handedly hijacked by ANEE, and has served to further polarize the folks in discussion here (which I alluded to here earlier)

For the people who want to make this a "gay rights" issue, guess what...

THIS GUY ADMITTED IT'S NOT ABOUT "THE PEOPLE" (READ: GAYS!)

... but no. You are going to take the MSM tagline that this guy is a freaking homophobic monster and run your mouth about gay rights for days on end.

=

reply to post by HIWATT


Well that's fine. I understand you accept his word as truth. I encourage you to express it.

I think he's giving lip service.

I think the idea that someone has 'beliefs' that making wedding cakes for gay couples is wrong and that's mutually exclusive to taking issue with them being gay is absolutely asinine.

I am totally fine if the Republicans use my airline but they can't sit first-class. I have no issue with Republicans obviously since I let them fly in my airplanes.

Is it okay that I am expressing this stance, or am I also hijacking to support an agenda?

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by HIWATT

 

Well that's fine. I understand you accept his word as truth. I encourage you to express it.

I think he's giving lip service.

I think the idea that someone has 'beliefs' that making wedding cakes for gay couples is wrong and that's mutually exclusive to taken issue with them being gay is absolutely asinine.

I am totally fine if the Republicans use my airline but they can't sit first-class. I have no issue with Republicans obviously since I let them fly in my airplanes.

Is it okay that I am expressing this stance, or am I also hijacking to support an agenda?

It's only assinine if there's an inability to distinguish between overt discrimination, and a simple line drawn in the sand with respect to a specific situation stemming from a persons belief system.

AGAIN

This whole thread has seen a lot of posts attempting to demonize this shop owner for being something he is not.

How many times does this have to be reiterated before people start to get it?

HE HAS NO PROBLEM SERVING "GAYS"
HE ADMITTED, IF IT WERE A GRAD CAKE, A BIRTHDAY CAKE, NO PROBLEM!
BUT HE HOLDS A PERSONAL BELIEF IN A TRADITIONAL DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE, SO SOMEHOW THAT MAKES HIM A GOD DAMN TERRORIST NAZI BIGGOT

fail

reply to post by HIWATT


Well you are clearly putting words into my mouth. Perhaps they represent others but I certainly didn't saying anything to warrant the dramatic words you just typed....

Again. I acknowledge your stance. I just don't agree. Care to comment on my airplane analogy? Being objective would you look at that and honestly say the airline owner has nothing against Republicans? If you don't think it's a fair analogy can you explain why, as I think it works quite well.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by HIWATT

 

Well you are clearly putting words into my mouth. Perhaps they represent others but I certainly didn't saying anything to warrant the dramatic words you just typed....

Again. I acknowledge your stance. I just don't agree. Care to comment on my airplane analogy? Being objective would you look at that and honestly say the airline owner has nothing against Republicans? If you don't think it's a fair analogy can you explain why, as I think it works quite well.

I was simply pointing out some very obvious sentiment in this thread. If I came across as putting words in your mouth I apologize.

Actually I think it's ironic that you're accusing me of putting words in your mouth, while at the same time you're providing an analogy that assumes the situation is one of class discrimination... (Republican passenger must be seated in "second class")

There is no evidence here at all to suggest that this business owner thinks of gay people as "second class", rather there IS evidence of the opposite.
He admitted that he has no problem with "the people" and that "he would make a birthday or graduation cake", he simply draws a line with regards to his beliefs on marriage.

So I respectfully reject your analogy based on the fact this is not a class issue.

reply to post by HIWATT


Understood. Agree to disagree then it to me very much seems to be a class issue. When you explore the very nature of someone taking qualm with someone being allowed to marry it becomes evident said person is being viewed as a lesser person ergo lower class. I know the arguments for 'traditional marriage' and not re-defining that as it's sacred. But the very nature of why this group of people is not included in that sacredness to begin with is class discrimination. Like I said agree to disagree. For now

I don't see how this is any different than refusing a wedding cake to a black or multiracial couple; it's all bigotry, even if it's homophobia and not racism. Personal views are fine, but this is segregation. It's one thing to dislike a minority group, it's another to intentionally make life harder for them.

I guess he can refuse service to whoever he wants since it is his shop. However, many people are going to stop going there (gay and straight) because they see how discriminating he can be.

Originally posted by VikingWarlord
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

You can't change your race, but you can choose who you sleep with. Equating denying service to people of a differing sexual orientation vs color of your skin as the same is absurd.

You can't change your sexual orientation either. It is absoutely the same thing - specifically discrimination against someone based on a fundamental part of who they are!

You don't have to agree with what they do, but the least you can do is respect it.

I am starting to think the gays will do anything for attention, it's getting old.

The mask has slipped! You should be ashamed of yourself.

What if you went to a pizza shop... ordered a pepperoni pizaa... made with pepperoni made from pork... the shop owner declines on religious beliefs... only beef pepperoni... He is a Muslim and pork is unclean to him...

What if you go to a deli... and order a ham sandwich... a real pork ham sandwich... the shop owner declines serving you based on religious belief... She is Jewish

What if you go to a sandwich shop... order a steak sub... no steak sandwiches here... the owners declines based on religious faith... they are Hindu

What if a shop owned by a Muslim only served women if they wore a hijab... discriminatory?... political?

What about restuarants that only admit people that wear neckties and dinner jackets?

What about faith based hospitals that refuse to administer abortions?

A shop owner refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay couple because of personal religious views?

News24

Johannesburg - The Equality Court has fined a functions venue and ordered it to allow homosexuals on its premises, after it refused to let a lesbian couple celebrate their wedding there. According to the University of Pretoria's human rights centre, the couple complained that they were not allowed to publicly celebrate their civil union at Sha-Mani functions venue in Alberton last year.

Posted due to the similarities in the OP's case.

What ever happened to "right of admission reserved"? I don't like you, go spend your money elsewhere. Is that no longer a right? I must now serve anyone, on pain of fine opr imprisonment, for refusing to serve a customer in my business? He could be black or white, cute or ugly, perfumed or stinking, it's still my right to say no. That right has just been removed from everyone. Think about that carefully.

Good luck ya'll.

WGAF...

The guy's a bigot...and he wouldn't get my business. I'd probably rather buy an expensive
cake like this from a gay guy, no, I definitely WOULD rather buy an expensive cake from a gay guy.

But it's his business....and he can do as he pleases...

In a perfect world he would be out of business tomorrow, but there is still enough hate and ignorance
going around in this imperfect world to bolster his damn opinion AND keep him gainfully employed...

Let people do what they want with their businesses and let the free-market take care of itself...
And that goes for smoking in establishments as well. If it's your place, do what you want, and if
people don't want to be there...they can vote with their feet

Originally posted by VikingWarlord
. For the shop owner, it might be like asking them to go against their religion and belief system. I would equate it to asking a a muslim to make a cake praising praising Jesus.

But why wouldn't they?

Unless they were a Muslim only cake shop that specifically only did Islamic designs, you should design and make any cake that a customer asks, it's your job and you decided to open and offer your service.
Otherwise stick a sign up saying "we only cater for straight weddings, thanks"

It's ridiculous.


And also as a business owner, why do your beliefs or your religion come into it?
You're making a cake, who cares what's on it as long as it's legal and doesn't cause offence.


Reminds me of the B&B owners in the UK who refused to let a gay couple stay there..... they were sued and lost their case.
Shame the same thing can't happen to this cake place.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
What if you went to a pizza shop... ordered a pepperoni pizaa... made with pepperoni made from pork... the shop owner declines on religious beliefs... only beef pepperoni... He is a Muslim and pork is unclean to him...

What if you go to a deli... and order a ham sandwich... a real pork ham sandwich... the shop owner declines serving you based on religious belief... She is Jewish

What if you go to a sandwich shop... order a steak sub... no steak sandwiches here... the owners declines based on religious faith... they are Hindu

What if a shop owned by a Muslim only served women if they wore a hijab... discriminatory?... political?

What about restuarants that only admit people that wear neckties and dinner jackets?

What about faith based hospitals that refuse to administer abortions?

A shop owner refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay couple because of personal religious views?

What if?.....Well.....I tell the owner he should post a damn sign, bark at him for wasting my time, and then
take my business elsewhere.

If he already has a sign...then I'm the idiot.

Publicly funded--tax payer assisted establishments CANNOT discriminate.
Private business is private....I don't have a right and nobody has a right to tell anyone how to
handle their business.....

For those of you with long noses.... down to the business store and buy yourself fifty cents
worth.....it would be a good place to keep your nose

reply to post by acmpnsfal


I realize people take advantage of marriage now, but currently it can only be taken advantage of by a male/female couple. That only makes sense if the goal is procreation. Elderly couples are not procreating, and many hetero couples are not procreating, so I see no problem with opening up the ability to take advantage of the union for all people.

I also have no problem with the churches that choose to perform gay marriages. That is their right according to their interpretation of the Bible (or whatever Holy Book they use), and nobody should interfere with that. BUT, nobody should be FORCING someone to go against their belief and accept and promote gay marriage, or abortion, or anything else that violates their personal beliefs.

I have no problem with gay marriage, but others do, and they have every right to feel the way they feel.

- The privately owned cake shop can service whoever they wish, right? I'm pretty sure that they have a right to refuse service if they want.

Argh. This is the most annoying meme and logical fallacy that keeps popping up from republitards. Not saying you are one, but to anyone else who uses this as an excuse.

Yes. They do have a right to kick them out. And we also have the right to call them out on this total discriminatory crap. That's how private property and freedom of speech works.

Side note - never complain about those who are handling your food.
You don't know what goes on in the kitchen when you aren't watching.

True. But in any good restaurant anyone caught screwing with someones food should be fired instantaneously. I work at a restaurant, if this ever happened and they were caught they would be fired.

It is good to see some people standing up against the sickness that has engulfed our country. Unfortunately, taking a stand against homosexuals is like fighting with your neighbor about his dog defecating on your lawn while your house is on fire. October Surprise is right around the corner and for most of you there will be no escape. I will be gone soon..sooner the better because I have had enough.

I like the history of Colorado, so many, many strange things, those which appear to be alien and out of this world, visiting this world.

But a gay couple not getting a cake baked for them, that is just funny to me. News worthy of nothing more than a good chuckle.

Lakewood (Colorado) Cake Shop Refuses Wedding Cake To Gay Couple.,

Why is this a conspiracy??