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An honest question for the Freemasons here.
page: 2share:
Originally posted by emsed1
reply to post by EnochWasRight
Well, since you repeatedly affirm that you are not a mason, I assume the OP will disregard your answer.
You have the right to an opinion, but it's just an opinion.
Also - As Past Master of my lodge if I found out a man was refused membership due to his sexual orientation, I would bring the objectors up on Masonic charges. That's not how we do business.edit on 7/31/12 by emsed1 because: (no reason given)
I'm sure each lodge has its own procedures. My main point was to show the fact that the Masons primary symbolism of the compass, square, triangle and circle are reflections of immutable truth and law. Within this symbolism, the Male, Female and Child are set as a truth of truths.
reply to post by EnochWasRight
I like your reply to my post too!
Yes, I believe the next existence will call upon the experiences in this one regularly, and I also think it may take any number of incarnations before we are fully able to exist in that next realm.
I like your reply to my post too!
Yes, I believe the next existence will call upon the experiences in this one regularly, and I also think it may take any number of incarnations before we are fully able to exist in that next realm.
Originally posted by Masonic Light
Interesting....the word "libertine" is not used in any obligation in my jurisdiction (although it was used by Anderson in his Constitution).
"Neither will I be at the initiating, passing or rasing of an oldman in dotage, a young man underage, an atheist, an irreligious libertine, etc, etc."
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Masonic Light
Interesting....the word "libertine" is not used in any obligation in my jurisdiction (although it was used by Anderson in his Constitution).
"Neither will I be at the initiating, passing or rasing of an oldman in dotage, a young man underage, an atheist, an irreligious libertine, etc, etc."
very different than NC obligation. I think I will be amazed at the differences other jurisdictions have once I venture out of my sweet tea haven.
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
Could you explain to an outsider (if you are able), what the word libertine means in reference to Masonic obligations? I kind of understand what it means, but if you could explain that in reference to the OP that would help me to understand it better.
Just to let everyone I haven't hit and run the thread, I will be back to answer the replies shortly, but thank you all for your input so far.
Could you explain to an outsider (if you are able), what the word libertine means in reference to Masonic obligations? I kind of understand what it means, but if you could explain that in reference to the OP that would help me to understand it better.
Just to let everyone I haven't hit and run the thread, I will be back to answer the replies shortly, but thank you all for your input so far.
reply to post by 74Templar
To be a Mason, one must have been born a free man. For the purposes of Freemasonry, a "libertine" is a freed slave, and therefore not eligible for the lessons of Freemasonry.
If it were interpreted to include those other two definitions, then most Masons would not qualify, because the majority of us are freethinkers in religious matters, and all of modern society are profligates.
lib·er·tine
[lib-er-teen, -tin] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who is morally or sexually unrestrained, especially a dissolute man; a profligate; rake.
2.
a freethinker in religious matters.
3.
a person freed from slavery in ancient Rome.
To be a Mason, one must have been born a free man. For the purposes of Freemasonry, a "libertine" is a freed slave, and therefore not eligible for the lessons of Freemasonry.
If it were interpreted to include those other two definitions, then most Masons would not qualify, because the majority of us are freethinkers in religious matters, and all of modern society are profligates.
reply to post by getreadyalready
I always thought that Libertine was added in the 1700's as a way for the "Institutions that be" to combat the rise of Deism and other Enlightened religious movements. The British Crown was never happy about Freemasonry, and any society that was free thinking in religious matters moved directly against the Church of England, which is a direct affront to the Crown.
Here and now if it had to be interpreted it would simply be someone lacking morals. I'm sure everyone here knows someone that could be defined as being without morals, we just wouldn't use the antiquated term Libertine to describe them.
I always thought that Libertine was added in the 1700's as a way for the "Institutions that be" to combat the rise of Deism and other Enlightened religious movements. The British Crown was never happy about Freemasonry, and any society that was free thinking in religious matters moved directly against the Church of England, which is a direct affront to the Crown.
Here and now if it had to be interpreted it would simply be someone lacking morals. I'm sure everyone here knows someone that could be defined as being without morals, we just wouldn't use the antiquated term Libertine to describe them.
Originally posted by 74Templar
Could you explain to an outsider (if you are able), what the word libertine means in reference to Masonic obligations? I kind of understand what it means, but if you could explain that in reference to the OP that would help me to understand it better.
I my jurisdiction, as explained above by Rockpuck, it would mean a person lacking in morals.
edit on 31-7-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude is a beerless libertine
Dear Augustus-Masonicus...
In my studies of Freemason(s)... I did as best as I could to better an understanding to the 9th degree.
All I found (Experienced) was the 9 stood for...
Bully, Coward, Liar, Thief, Joker, Drunkard, Whore, Beggar, and Proud.
Are these the nine calamities spoken of by the nine letters in the mystery.
Whilst I do not want you to do anymore than suffice me with a no and/or yes... Be advised that ATS is watching.
They Will "Bah Hum Bug" UsIf We Are Exposed.
Also... I learned the 10th degree revealed/exposed mystery of the Traitor.
Are these ten truly the unwanted of every lodge? I know well enough people of sorts have, as is understood, their shortcomings... But do the 10 really rule out any chance of membership?
P.S. Am I Non-Mason or Anti-Mason or Free-Mason or Wannabe-Mason?
In my studies of Freemason(s)... I did as best as I could to better an understanding to the 9th degree.
All I found (Experienced) was the 9 stood for...
Bully, Coward, Liar, Thief, Joker, Drunkard, Whore, Beggar, and Proud.
Are these the nine calamities spoken of by the nine letters in the mystery.
Whilst I do not want you to do anymore than suffice me with a no and/or yes... Be advised that ATS is watching.
They Will "Bah Hum Bug" UsIf We Are Exposed.
Also... I learned the 10th degree revealed/exposed mystery of the Traitor.
Are these ten truly the unwanted of every lodge? I know well enough people of sorts have, as is understood, their shortcomings... But do the 10 really rule out any chance of membership?
P.S. Am I Non-Mason or Anti-Mason or Free-Mason or Wannabe-Mason?
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
emsed1 because: (no reason given)
I'm sure each lodge has its own procedures. My main point was to show the fact that the Masons primary symbolism of the compass, square, triangle and circle are reflections of immutable truth and law. Within this symbolism, the Male, Female and Child are set as a truth of truths.
Respectfully, I think you are using a skewed view of your own moral code for gay-bashing.
The OP question was whether a gay man can be a Mason. The answer is yes.
We don't deal with defining issues like personal relationships in Freemasonry. We don't have phallic penis rituals or sex magic or any of that other stuff.
My personal belief is that Truth is not something that is defined by someone else. Truth is defined through personal revelation and consists of "knowing" right and wrong.
reply to post by emsed1
No gay bashing on my part. I have many friends and relatives who are gay. This doesn't change the fact that there are better choices that have fewer consequences. That's their choice to make, but nothing about making the choice changes the law. Law reflects truth.
As for Masons, to say that you do not define issues of personal relationships is not honest. Masonry is all about building better character among the men it includes. Character is based on virtue and law. Application of law is the primary means to reach virtue.
I am not judging the gay man. I am merely pointing out that there is a higher path to virtue. Freemasonry is a path to virtue and character if it is honest about the compass and square. If not, then the symbols are meaningless. We both know this is not true.
As for my comparison of the male, female and child, this is the thesis of the Egyptians. The Egyptians are the basis for the builders compass and square. The foundation extends by virtue. Pythagoras was Mr. Parable when it came to these applicable truths. Where do you think I get the information for my first post? I got it from a Mason website.
The former Masons of old were a whites only club. Now, they have included color in some lodges. I assume the homosexual is soon to be added as well. Women will be next. Why no women? Churches allow anyone to join. There are no secrets.
The OP question was whether a gay man can be a Mason. The answer is yes.
We don't deal with defining issues like personal relationships in Freemasonry. We don't have phallic penis rituals or sex magic or any of that other stuff.
My personal belief is that Truth is not something that is defined by someone else. Truth is defined through personal revelation and consists of "knowing" right and wrong.
No gay bashing on my part. I have many friends and relatives who are gay. This doesn't change the fact that there are better choices that have fewer consequences. That's their choice to make, but nothing about making the choice changes the law. Law reflects truth.
As for Masons, to say that you do not define issues of personal relationships is not honest. Masonry is all about building better character among the men it includes. Character is based on virtue and law. Application of law is the primary means to reach virtue.
I am not judging the gay man. I am merely pointing out that there is a higher path to virtue. Freemasonry is a path to virtue and character if it is honest about the compass and square. If not, then the symbols are meaningless. We both know this is not true.
As for my comparison of the male, female and child, this is the thesis of the Egyptians. The Egyptians are the basis for the builders compass and square. The foundation extends by virtue. Pythagoras was Mr. Parable when it came to these applicable truths. Where do you think I get the information for my first post? I got it from a Mason website.
The former Masons of old were a whites only club. Now, they have included color in some lodges. I assume the homosexual is soon to be added as well. Women will be next. Why no women? Churches allow anyone to join. There are no secrets.
edit on 1-8-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
reply to post by EnochWasRight
If you think there is a "higher path to virtue" then you are indeed judging.
Do you have any homosexual experience to add to your spiritual repertoirre? If not, then your path to virtue is still incomplete. How do you expect to exist on the next plane of existence without first experiencing everything this plane has to offer? Have you experienced homosexual sex, or relationships? Been belittled or ridiculed for your sexual preference? Been hated, discriminated against, or even attacked for something so baseless?
I'd say, before we assign any "truth" or "virtue" or "higher path" we need to have all the information we can personally obtain on the issue, and that means experiencing the issue.
I'll be the first one to say I'm sometimes uncomfortable around gay people, but I've also known some that I really liked, and I've also got stories I could tell that are not appropriate for all venues! I don't allow my kids to watch that stupid "Fred" TV show on Nickelodeon, because that Fred kid is far too flaming, disgusting, and ridiculous for young people to watch. I've got issues, I'm not perfect, but I am experienced in every opportunity that presents itself, and I refuse to make judgements on what is a "higher path" or not. My path is my path. It works for me, but it definitely could not work for everyone.
Making a rule that would bar homosexuals from Lodge would be ridiculous, but demonizing someone for blackballing a homosexual would be equally ridiculous. We all walk our own paths, and none of them are "higher" than any other.
I am not judging the gay man. I am merely pointing out that there is a higher path to virtue. Freemasonry is a path to virtue and character if it is honest about the compass and square. If not, then the symbols are meaningless. We both know this is not true.
If you think there is a "higher path to virtue" then you are indeed judging.
Do you have any homosexual experience to add to your spiritual repertoirre? If not, then your path to virtue is still incomplete. How do you expect to exist on the next plane of existence without first experiencing everything this plane has to offer? Have you experienced homosexual sex, or relationships? Been belittled or ridiculed for your sexual preference? Been hated, discriminated against, or even attacked for something so baseless?
I'd say, before we assign any "truth" or "virtue" or "higher path" we need to have all the information we can personally obtain on the issue, and that means experiencing the issue.
I'll be the first one to say I'm sometimes uncomfortable around gay people, but I've also known some that I really liked, and I've also got stories I could tell that are not appropriate for all venues! I don't allow my kids to watch that stupid "Fred" TV show on Nickelodeon, because that Fred kid is far too flaming, disgusting, and ridiculous for young people to watch. I've got issues, I'm not perfect, but I am experienced in every opportunity that presents itself, and I refuse to make judgements on what is a "higher path" or not. My path is my path. It works for me, but it definitely could not work for everyone.
Making a rule that would bar homosexuals from Lodge would be ridiculous, but demonizing someone for blackballing a homosexual would be equally ridiculous. We all walk our own paths, and none of them are "higher" than any other.
Lodge by-laws make no mention of a man's sexuality.
A candidate must be free, entering of his own freewill, of good report, of the required age and must believe in a divine power. That is it.
A brother, whether he is gay or not, is a brother and will have my love and respect, the same as all Brethren worldwide.
I will come to his aid when he is in distress and will ask for his help when in need.
For me, end of story
A candidate must be free, entering of his own freewill, of good report, of the required age and must believe in a divine power. That is it.
A brother, whether he is gay or not, is a brother and will have my love and respect, the same as all Brethren worldwide.
I will come to his aid when he is in distress and will ask for his help when in need.
For me, end of story
I don't understand why there is an issue.... Especially to people who are not in the Order. WTH does it matter?
There is a simple, simple issue with privacy.
Your dick, your business.
There is a simple, simple issue with privacy.
Your dick, your business.
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
This doesn't change the fact that there are better choices that have fewer consequences. That's their choice to make, but nothing about making the choice changes the law. Law reflects truth.
Law? I see no law in the United States codification of laws that makes it illegal to be homosexual. Maybe you live somewhere else, say, like Iran? If not, maybe you should move somewhere else, say, like Iran. Then you and the government can be on the same page when it comes to laws and morality.
Character is based on virtue and law.
Are you saying that gay people are lacking in virtue?
I think that's what the GM was trying to imply when he wanted to classify gay Masons as Libertines. But, again, he was dissuaded of pursing that edict.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Character is based on virtue and law.
Are you saying that gay people are lacking in virtue?
Originally posted by 74Templar
What is the Masonic stance on gay members?
Now see, your question cannot be answered by masons. The truth is that there's a difference between "Freemasonry the idea", and each individual and separate "Lodge in practice". Freemasonry doean't itself ban anything, requires few things of men, and even the universally accepted things like "Belief in Supreme Beings" etc.. are bent and twisted from place to place, so much that even Buddhists and atheists can join up somewhere on the planet. However, the all powerful rule maker is the men who sit in any particular Lodge. They have one basic principle, that whomsoever is let into the Lodge must bring harmony and like mindedness to their craft, so that the present brothers will all feel "comfortable" sitting with the new man.
Therefore while Freemasonry is broad and does not discriminate against any, the individual Lodge is particular and does discriminate against many many things.
If the men of the Lodge all like to wear green shoes, and you show up to the petition with orange shoes, that would likely produce a "black ball" in the ballot, and you're out. All because your orange shoe is disruptive to the harmony of the green shoe men.
That "green/orange" particular could reference any characteristic trait found among men.
So, for example, there are Lodges that will only accept Policemen. There are Lodges what will only accept Military men, and so on.
Freemasonry is based on the principle of discrimination, but does not specify what type of discrimination is required, that specific discrimination is up to each Lodge itself to determine.
That's why you can't ask a mason that question. Because he can't answer for any other Lodge but his own.
Originally posted by 74Templar
Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by 74Templar
Masonry regards a man for his inner qualities, not his external qualities. So every man should be considered equal and on the same level. That being said, masonry is made up of regular men. Men with flaws. The official stance is always the same.
The only requirements is you must be a man, freeborn, non felon, a good man, believe in God or a higher power.
If I was to give advice to a gay man who wanted to join, I would say, don't ask, don't tell, until you are balloted upon. Once you are a brother, Masonic law will no allow any wrongdoing, but during the voting process, you are subject to men of all backgrounds and beliefs.
That's pretty much what I suspected, given the Mason's tolerance for all kinds of religion, I just wasn't sure due to the religious angle of Freemasonry. You just see so much bigotry against gays, especially from the Christian side, :
But...being gay is an "inner" quality...so I'm confused here. I can't tell if a person is gay from some external quality. I can't look at a person and discriminate against him for being gay. He has to tell me he is gay, to reveal his inner quality, before I would even know this.
The question I have is, why would he want to reveal his "inner" quality to me?
We know freemasonry prizes "silence", so why not just be silent on your inner qualities?
Freemasonry doesn't like masons revealing their "religious" beliefs, their "political" beliefs, etc...those "inner" things should remain inner and not allowed to disrupt the harmony of the lodge.
reply to post by NAMTERCES
Actually it can be answered and has.
No, atheists cannot join regular Freemasonry.
Which ones?
Actually it can be answered and has.
No, atheists cannot join regular Freemasonry.
So, for example, there are Lodges that will only accept Policemen. There are Lodges what will only accept Military men, and so on.
Which ones?