The problem with Religious debates ONLINE

reply to post by Prezbo369


That gets right to the heart of the issue. You're stating something about my belief system, i.e. that God *wants* to condemn unbelievers. We could argue about the meaning of the word *wants* but most Christians I believe would tell you that God has made the ultimate sacrifice so that people can avoid that.

So, I would say your understanding of Christianity is faulty. Further, you go on to say that because of your understanding, you feel that you must mock me - or did you say I was *deserving* of that?

What source have you tapped into to develop this perspective or understanding on the Christian view of God?

reply to post by Lazarus Short


I'd like to address your signature, Laz.

Socrates taught Plato. Plato taught Aristotle. Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon. This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great largely by slaughtering a lot of people. That is philosophy.

Jesus blessed the poor. He healed the sick. He even raised the dead. He died for us all and came back long enough to tell us to love one another. He then went to prepare a place for us where He was going. That is religion.

You are painting a herd of horses from one mare. That's not fair at all.

Religion is taking one spiritual path and devoting yourself to it. It has evolved into saying that no other path is right. It has further evolved into saying that the entire world proves that you will be punished if you do not follow this path. That is religion.

Spirituality: finding peace with the universe. That is all. However, I believe it would be wiser to find peace with the universe without completely ignoring all the abuse that happens to it. Because it's our universe just as much as it's anyone elses, so we have a responsibility too.

Philosophy: spirituality from the mind's perspective.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Christianity hasn't 'evolved' into saying Jesus is the only way. Jesus declared from the beginning that He was THE way. That's what Jesus said according to the bible - pick one, any one. I wasn't there to hear him say it, but I believe it nonetheless primarily because it is recorded that the people who did hear him say it gave up their lives to get the message out. This continued for quite a few years, in some cases right up to the present day.

So, no sliding around on this one, Christians believe something different and won't compromise on this idea that Jesus is the way. There is really no way around this, no compromise, no debating. Christians know that they might be put to death because of their faith in this very idea - not by their own hand, or in battle, but by direct persecution.

And anyway, have a little mercy, if Jesus isn't the way, then Christians are the most pitiable among humankind.

The biggest problem I have with religion is just how logically bankrupt it is. For example, God is omnipotent, he knows all. Yet he allegedly wrote an ambiguous text laying down the law with morals that only really apply to primitive, irone age tribes, like the whole "women = property" or "putting homosexuals to death" thing. Most modern Christians/Jews conveniently drop these aspects as they were apparently "of their time" and not suitable to modern Life, So, either God's supposedly divine morality was only applicable to a tiny window of time or his morals are up the creek. If he is omnipotent, he will have known all the hate, pain, hurt and death his barbaric notion of morality has caused over the ages which implies either he does not give a damn or is purposely effing with your head. This whole brushing aside of such barbaric examples of morality in the Bible by modern theists is merely an attempt to balance the cognitive dissonance of what they know to be morally acceptable (with the benefit of thousands of years of historical hindsight) and what apparently god thinks is morally acceptable (murdering homosexuals, killing disobedient children, murdering adulterous couples, considering women property and so on). Either you follow your god's word down to a T, warts, bigotry and all, or you're not a true follower of that religion. Who are you to re-interpret your god's (admittedly, rather vile and bigoted) word?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The biggest problem about religious discussion online is IGNORANCE. (I guess discrimination is a subset of that). I have seen a whole lot of garbage posting from people. They post what they think people of other faiths believe and those supposed 'facts' about what others believe almost always turn out to be wrong. The 'sources' they use for information come from their own belief system which is always biased against the others and ignorant.

No amount of attempting reeducation of them helps. they simply won't listen.
Those people are hell bent on converting everyone to their belief system.
It's myopic .. it's ignorant .. and it's really, really sad.

I completely agree with this because I believe this goes right to the key issue: we can't ALL be right...

The reality is that all of the Religions claim that their Religion is the ONLY truth and all the others are wrong.

They ALL disagree with each other and fight and kill over it. THIS is how we KNOW that God is not the author of false Religions.

In my opinion, the number one problem with religion is that it is one HUGE LIE.

To me this is absolute proof that all false Religions are nothing more than mind control with a stealth agenda centered around blinding people to reality and misguiding them away from the truth.

Religion will NEVER tell you the TRUTH... Their goal is to HIDE the truth from you.

The OP is making an excellent point which demonstrates very clearly how Religion LIES, HATES, & KILLS, while God LOVES and commands us to ALSO love...

"The essence of our actions and the love we show our neighbors is what practicing your faith should be about. Your relationship with God is directly as strong as your relationship with your fellow man. It's not following word for word the Commandments or the scriptures. It's the LOVE you treat your fellow man with that counts"

~ Bishop Stephen Blaire

Closed minded religious people

reply to post by john_bmth


Comes down to who gets to define good. If God defines it, and he has, then who are we to question it? The rules you're citing were handed down to the Israelites and practiced imperfectly by them. You seem to want to cite the consequences of sin rather than the sin itself as morally bankrupt. How about the rule of loving your neighbor, would you like to throw that one out also? How about applying your logic to supposedly "civilized" society? Do you disagree with those laws and their consequences?

Your approach has each person defining what is good (right) in their own eyes. That's completely impractical and rejects several thousand years of human lawmaking. Obviously, we need laws to keep us off each others toes. Who gets to decide which laws are good?

Originally posted by Mickierocksman
I do wish that all religions would just disappear overnight, for with religion we have no hope of becoming a better species of animal.

Why not?

There are a great many athiest scientist advancing our lot in life currently. Im sure during our history religion has stopped or slowed the progress of advancement, but it has not stopped a great many others. Electricity, particle physics, millions of inventions, relativity. I firmly believe that we as a species need science in order to solve the most pressing problems in the world, or roll the clock back and exterminate billions of people, for without modern advancements our world cannot feed our current population levels. We need to move off this planet and reach for the stars.

And while im a staunch agnostic, i also firmly believe religion is not the root of our problems. If religion was done away with, other means would be used to control and kill. Religion is a very powerful tool, but not the only one in the toolbox. You think the evil people of our world would simply give up if religion was gone? I think not.

Originally posted by BSTStar
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

That gets right to the heart of the issue. You're stating something about my belief system, i.e. that God *wants* to condemn unbelievers. We could argue about the meaning of the word *wants* but most Christians I believe would tell you that God has made the ultimate sacrifice so that people can avoid that.

So you and 'most Christians' are fine with eternal torture because................he made in your eyes the ultimate sacrifice???........really? do you mean when your god was itself tortured before being killed.........only to return to life 3 days (!) later to continue his role as the master and commander of the universe? and why? to create a loophole for a rule he made in the first place............yea sounds like he sacrificed a LOT. What is it with you guys and human sacrifice?

So, I would say your understanding of Christianity is faulty.

Of course you would........

Further, you go on to say that because of your understanding, you feel that you must mock me - or did you say I was *deserving* of that?

Your beliefs are worthy only of ridicule and mockery, IMO, for the reason I have already explained.

What source have you tapped into to develop this perspective or understanding on the Christian view of God?

Why the Bible of course.

reply to post by Prezbo369


I can feel the love and civility in this discussion.

You are obviously hung up on the idea of permanent punishment, a punishment that can be avoided by accepting the fact that God is the potter and we are the clay, and accepting his terms for eternal life. So, if you accept the idea that God is supreme and that he has handed down this judgment and set of consequences, why not simply accept what he is offering? You can avoid it altogether as can all the other millions rejecting God's authority. Simply bend your stiff neck and do as God says to do. You obviously have a bible so it's all laid out for you.

Oh, but I forgot, you're outraged on behalf of everyone else. A true altruist.

Let me ask you, would it seem more fair if say, Hitler or Joe Stalin made it to heaven carte blanche? Of course not. Unless we let God decide the terms of eternal life, and by that, I mean eternal life in heaven with God, we will eternally be saying, "What is HE doing here?" On the other hand, God has even made a way for Hitler and Stalin to make it to heaven, as he states it in Is 55:7-9. No doubt, you disagree with this also.

The reality my friend, is that you would like to make these decisions on your own terms. You would like to act without fear of eternal consequences. If that's the way you want to roll, then just do it and don't look back. If you really believe that God isn't in control because of what the bible says (or at least not that God), then just do whatever you please and enjoy it. Eat, drink, and be merry!

Not for me - he's the potter, we're the clay.

reply to post by sparksgordon


I need to explain something before I give my views on people that follow a religion.

I am not an idiot. I have been smoking cigarettes for over forty years. Over that time it has been drilled into my head just how bad smoking is. I KNOW how bad it is. Also, I KNOW that there is absolutely nothing good about smoking. But, I still smoke.
------------------
That said, I have a lot more respect for people that know there is absolutely no valid proof or evidence of a god, but decide to believe in them anyway, as opposed to uneducated and ill-informed people trying to defend all the contradictions and inconsistencies in the bible.

Or, use god in a very stupid way to threaten people. Just listen to this airhead and you'll see what I mean (and try not to laugh):

Originally posted by sparksgordon

Originally posted by Mickierocksman
It’s things like this thread I made today that promotes my loathing of all things religious, especially the christian faith that hides behind the cloak of do-gooders when everyone can plainly see that it is simply a cult “hell bent” on pushing an agenda that only assists the church and not the people it’s supposed to be caring or looking out for.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I do wish that all religions would just disappear overnight, for with religion we have no hope of becoming a better species of animal.

I wish we could work towards getting off this rock rather than fighting and killing each other.

Religion is not the key to a better life, rather the opposite.

Mickierocksman

LOL and there we have it ladies and gentlemen the end to this experiment. it didn't even last a page. you just insulted the beliefs of millions of people with no attack against yours. *shakes head*

I didn't hear him attacking a specific belief system. I heard him attacking religion in general. I'm sorry his opinion isn't the same as yours, but you don't have to take it personally and call it an "attack". Your experiment was doomed to fail if you can't see the difference between the two. I'm assuming people worship God, not the religious structure that helps define that term.

He's trying to promote peace and you're trying to promote HIM as an instigator. Why?

OP i do believe that Your god is my extraterrestrial ...

reply to post by BSTStar


So in your opinion, is the murder of homosexuals "good"? After at, it is what the Abrahamic god laid down as "good". Same goes for all of the other examples I mentioned (and that is far from a comprehensive list). What is you opinion on, for example, the murder of disobedient children or adulterous couples?

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple

Originally posted by sparksgordon

Originally posted by Mickierocksman
It’s things like this thread I made today that promotes my loathing of all things religious, especially the christian faith that hides behind the cloak of do-gooders when everyone can plainly see that it is simply a cult “hell bent” on pushing an agenda that only assists the church and not the people it’s supposed to be caring or looking out for.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I do wish that all religions would just disappear overnight, for with religion we have no hope of becoming a better species of animal.

I wish we could work towards getting off this rock rather than fighting and killing each other.

Religion is not the key to a better life, rather the opposite.

Mickierocksman

LOL and there we have it ladies and gentlemen the end to this experiment. it didn't even last a page. you just insulted the beliefs of millions of people with no attack against yours. *shakes head*

I didn't hear him attacking a specific belief system. I heard him attacking religion in general. I'm sorry his opinion isn't the same as yours, but you don't have to take it personally and call it an "attack". Your experiment was doomed to fail if you can't see the difference between the two. I'm assuming people worship God, not the religious structure that helps define that term.

He's trying to promote peace and you're trying to promote HIM as an instigator. Why?

Well thank you sir, I would like an anwer to that as well.......

Mickierocksman

Originally posted by impaired

Originally posted by sparksgordon
I dont mind answering your questions mate. however if you intend to make this thread an argumentative discriminative insulting thread im afraid you are wrong. if you want to debate like that please go on one of the COUNTLESS other threads on the matter not this one.

Sir - first of all, I am an Agnostic.

Second of all, I am watching this thread with my very eyes and YOU are not answering questions and are now getting defensive.

Why?

Now, are you going to construe my post as a strike because I am going against you?

Was I disrespectful? Was Mickierocksman? No. You are just being contested and it appears you are dodging questions and getting upset.

Edit: I just read the rest of the page. You said you were attacked? Are you just messing with us? I don't understand. What is the point of this thread? Mickierocksman was respectful and you just railroaded him by "not responding to your posts".

This is why us Agnostics and Atheists want to bash our heads into walls sometimes. This thread is proof. Am *I* not worthy of a conversation/debate now because I hurt your feelings???

edit on 7/31/2012 by impaired because: (no reason given)

Nah mate! your fine you talked in a respectful way! mickierocksman however with this.


Originally posted by Mickierocksman
It’s things like this thread I made today that promotes my loathing of all things religious, especially the christian faith that hides behind the cloak of do-gooders when everyone can plainly see that it is simply a cult “hell bent” on pushing an agenda that only assists the church and not the people it’s supposed to be caring or looking out for.

i mean simply calling my faith a cult is insulting in the least! i agree with some of his statements but there is no need to sling this kind of thing around. calling ones faith a cult is not being respectful in the least thats why i gave a strike for this comment.

you however are fine although i do see your trying to get a rise out of me haha

Thanks for your comment friend

reply to post by Mickierocksman


im not trying to promote him as an instigator i was mearly saying his way with words was exactly the kind of thing i wanted this thread to avoid. such as "cult" and when he mentioned "Especially the christian faith" i want peace as much as the next man but are these words of peace?

I respect his beliefs! i respect the fact that he has chosen to not follow or believe in a God thats fine and thats his parogative. However i do not like my faith called a cult in any shape or form. i have not been brainwashed into my religion in fact i could walk away at any time im the opposite of a lot of people i used to be an atheist but now i am not and im very proud of my choice.
Choices are what make our world i think. we can choose to do evil and we can choose to do Good.

we can choose to follow a God we can choose not to follow a God. but why choose to bash peoples beliefs? why choose a life such as Richard Dawkins to destroy peoples beliefs. sure Religion has done bad things, TERRIBLE things but dont tell me that atheism and communism hasn't done bad things? if not worse!

Thanks for all these awesome comments i think we have tried our hardest to stay in the box of not being disrespectful to one an other! so lets keep it coming

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by sparksgordon

 

I need to explain something before I give my views on people that follow a religion.

I am not an idiot. I have been smoking cigarettes for over forty years. Over that time it has been drilled into my head just how bad smoking is. I KNOW how bad it is. Also, I KNOW that there is absolutely nothing good about smoking. But, I still smoke.
------------------
That said, I have a lot more respect for people that know there is absolutely no valid proof or evidence of a god, but decide to believe in them anyway, as opposed to uneducated and ill-informed people trying to defend all the contradictions and inconsistencies in the bible.

Or, use god in a very stupid way to threaten people. Just listen to this airhead and you'll see what I mean (and try not to laugh):

HOLY MONKEY! that is mental lol i seriously dont think you can again stereotype all christians with what some (mentally challenged) people say or do? in the same way i cant say all people who dont believe in God are this that and this because of things some of them have done.

Originally posted by sparksgordon
reply to post by Mickierocksman

 

im not trying to promote him as an instigator i was mearly saying his way with words was exactly the kind of thing i wanted this thread to avoid. such as "cult" and when he mentioned "Especially the christian faith" i want peace as much as the next man but are these words of peace?

I respect his beliefs! i respect the fact that he has chosen to not follow or believe in a God thats fine and thats his parogative. However i do not like my faith called a cult in any shape or form. i have not been brainwashed into my religion in fact i could walk away at any time im the opposite of a lot of people i used to be an atheist but now i am not and im very proud of my choice.

Sorry Sparky, but your religion as well as all others come under the definition of "Cult".

cult   /kʌlt/ Show Spelled[kuhlt]
noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
dictionary.reference.com...

Also, most people bashing your religion are intelligent and informed. That is exactly why they are bashing it.
They read the bible and did some thinking for themselves instead of blindly following what they have been told.

You still haven't answered the question - "Why should I believe in God?"
Nor have you addressed the matter of God commanding that disobedient children and adulterist couples be killed.
As to the matter of Jesus dying for everyone.....He came back, so he really didn't die then did he?
And therefore the event is no different than if he were merely unconscious for a while.

Don't you find it curious that the 3 days he was allegedly dead corresponds to the 3 days that the Sun is considered dead at Winter Solstice? Do you think that the writers of the story were familiar with the Solstice and thought it was a good plot? Or do you think their story just might be an allegory for the movement of the Sun and the big celebrations when it arose after the 3 days?

I have noticed that all church pamphlets announcing their Easter Sunday service are at Sunrise. Don't you wonder why they have it at Sunrise? Allegory for Sonrise?

I believe that the universe is an incredibly complicated place and that no one, not scientists or believers in religion have all the answers. I do feel that a lot of people have a need to understand and explain why things happen in their life and in the world so adopt certain beliefs to sooth the turmoil within themselves.

Religion or beliefs in general do have other used too, such as forming comunities and provding support structures for individuals and to provide a tribal sense of identity, in many ways sites like ATS provide a similar service.

The major problem though, in my opinion, isn't really religion it's humanity's tendency to form tribal groups that then feel the need to go to war to spread their beliefs and tribal influence.

My ultimate belief is that one day we'll evolve out of the need to be so tribalistic and come up with a shared consenus reality that doesn't need to be defended.

reply to post by OhZone


hey man these are awesome questions! and yea i guess you could generalize all religions as cults. I however am more interested in other peoples beliefs in this thread. i dont want to have arguments about our beliefs i just want to hear the diversity of belief. we know where you stand now.

however if you do want me to discuses these things with you. why dont you open a new thread or U2U me would love to chat about it my friend. just not on this thread