Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

www.americamagazine.org...

www.youtube.com.../c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

www.youtube.com...

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL




posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Hello, DL.

Can you define evil for me, in the biblical sense?

Then, can you let me know - according to which standard "God" judges good or evil?

Thanks in advance,
Steve.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


God made a way to be free from the bondage to sin. Being born again by His Holy Spirit.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:56 PM
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Double

edit on 30-7-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?


I think you are begging the question a tad. I can and do choose to not do evil. It's pretty easy for me, having committed many, many sins in my 55 years and having decided (chosen) to focus on helping people and helping myself.

It's really a question of how we define evil, right? Well, for me, evil is that which is done intentionally to injure others. That's not for me. Is it for you? Only you can say.



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Hello, DL.

Can you define evil for me, in the biblical sense?

Then, can you let me know - according to which standard "God" judges good or evil?

Thanks in advance,
Steve.



Whatever you do not like.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


God made a way to be free from the bondage to sin. Being born again by His Holy Spirit.


Sure. All you need do is embrace human sacrifice and a genocidal son murderer and you are free to be a slave to you immoral God.

Good deal that. Not.
That will send you straight to hell. Rethink if you can think at all.

God did allow for a moral way but you would have to step up to your own responsibilities but that is not your immoral style I guess.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by argentus
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?


I think you are begging the question a tad. I can and do choose to not do evil. It's pretty easy for me, having committed many, many sins in my 55 years and having decided (chosen) to focus on helping people and helping myself.

It's really a question of how we define evil, right? Well, for me, evil is that which is done intentionally to injure others. That's not for me. Is it for you? Only you can say.


We all intentionally hurt others when we choose to compete for any resources.
That could be a job or a better price on a car. If you add all the times a person might lose at the competition for a job for instance, if he does not find someone to eventually beat out, he will eventually die.

You will decide to do evil again if you are ever in the job market.

No one intends to kill but we all do.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 



So that's what you're left with? Personal attacks?



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



So that's what you're left with? Personal attacks?


For the super immoral delusional people, yes.
It is tough love for those who will try to profit from murder.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Are you willing to consider the work of Jesus Christ in another light, is that even possible?



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



So that's what you're left with? Personal attacks?


For the super immoral delusional people, yes.
It is tough love for those who will try to profit from murder.

Regards
DL


Who is profiting from murder? And if all you're here to do is level personal attacks that makes you a troll. And this thread nothing more than a bait thread so you can troll.



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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You made your bed, you're the one that's going to have to sleep in it.

Shalom.



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 09:51 PM
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Evil is ultimately causing plants, animals, nature, and the Earth to suffer.

We are not the only living things on this planet and our 'superior' intellect doesn't give us the right to oppress, displace, etc. other living things for the sake of comfortable living.

Alright, God gave us dominion over plants, animals, etc etc. If we have a dominion, then we are kings and queens in our own right... ...But are we going to be good kings and queens or evil ones? Do you think good/righteous leaders will farm and devour their subjects??

Here's the million dollar question. If evil is our nature, are we to accept our destructive nature and do nothing about it??

We have loads of archeological records that inefficient and potentially destructive species always lead the path to extinction: giant(inefficient) and/or highly aggressive/violent creatures. Notice how modern species are quite cuddly compared to ancient ones that looks like stuff of horror films and nightmares!



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Are you willing to consider the work of Jesus Christ in another light, is that even possible?


Does it include embracing immoral human sacrifice or man shedding his responsibilities to some other victim?
Does it involve punishing the innocent while the guilty walk?
If so. No.

I do see archetypal Jesus in another light right now. It is the more intelligent Gnostic Christian view that does not tie him to the genocidal son murderer of the O T.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



So that's what you're left with? Personal attacks?


For the super immoral delusional people, yes.
It is tough love for those who will try to profit from murder.

Regards
DL


Who is profiting from murder? And if all you're here to do is level personal attacks that makes you a troll. And this thread nothing more than a bait thread so you can troll.


You are trying to but God will fix your wagon in hell for your immoral work.

How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by ahnggk
Evil is ultimately causing plants, animals, nature, and the Earth to suffer.

We are not the only living things on this planet and our 'superior' intellect doesn't give us the right to oppress, displace, etc. other living things for the sake of comfortable living.

Alright, God gave us dominion over plants, animals, etc etc. If we have a dominion, then we are kings and queens in our own right... ...But are we going to be good kings and queens or evil ones? Do you think good/righteous leaders will farm and devour their subjects??

Here's the million dollar question. If evil is our nature, are we to accept our destructive nature and do nothing about it??

We have loads of archeological records that inefficient and potentially destructive species always lead the path to extinction: giant(inefficient) and/or highly aggressive/violent creatures. Notice how modern species are quite cuddly compared to ancient ones that looks like stuff of horror films and nightmares!


Nightmares?
They just looked like oversized chickens. LOL.

To your question. I think we have to acceprt that we are evolving animals like all other animals and must do both cooperate and compete.
I do hear you though but would like to ask you, since you know of evolution; what do you see happening to evolution and the survival of the fittest if we somehow could take competition out of it?

To evolve, do we not have to compete?
If we do not compete and reduce our fitness, would we not eventually go extinct?
I think so and that is why I say that we cannot help but do evil. Even you.

Regards
DL

edit on 1-8-2012 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


That Man that died did so out of love. It was His choice alone. "No greater love than this that a man should die for his friends." It's the system God set up, so that men would glorify His Son and not glory in themselves.

It's simple really. God is not bound by the 4 dimensions we are. He exists outside of time. In order to give men the freedom to choose there is the inverse reality that some of those men would choose to not love Him back. All men are given a choice. We as humans wouldn't want to spend eternity with robots programmed to love us, why would God want anything different?

edit on 1-8-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


That Man that died did so out of love. It was His choice alone. "No greater love than this that a man should die for his friends." It's the system God set up, so that men would glorify His Son and not glory in themselves.

It's simple really. God is not bound by the 4 dimensions we are. He exists outside of time. In order to give men the freedom to choose there is the inverse reality that some of those men would choose to not love Him back. All men are given a choice. We as humans wouldn't want to spend eternity with robots programmed to love us, why would God want anything different?

edit on 1-8-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


God not wanting robots makes sense. His sending those who do not love him to be tortured in hell because they do not shows how sadistic your God is.

www.youtube.com...

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2012, not 112.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 1 2012 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Are you willing to consider the work of Jesus Christ in another light, is that even possible?


Does it include embracing immoral human sacrifice or man shedding his responsibilities to some other victim?
Does it involve punishing the innocent while the guilty walk?
If so. No.

I do see archetypal Jesus in another light right now. It is the more intelligent Gnostic Christian view that does not tie him to the genocidal son murderer of the O T.

Regards
DL

First of all, he was one with the father and second, he wasn't actually murdered.


Originally posted by NewAgeMan
In the field



Jesus Christ's Superderterministic, Cosmological, Magnum Opus.





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