Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Guns, Violence and the Psychology of a Massacre..

page: 1
8
<<   2 >>

log in

join

posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 11:28 AM
link   
Humans.... WOW

As diverse and complicated a creature as human beings are, any attempt to pigeonhole the entire species psychologically is either bound to fail, or laughable at best.

Yet there are some historical significant incidences that can and should shed light on why massacres such as the recent Colorado shooting occur.

The very fact that they seem to be "spaced" out, is perhaps a valid conspiracy itself and maybe some astute ATS Members will tackle that. For me, it is the human mind that is involved in such things that is fascinating.

I used the noun "guns" in the start of my opening post, but this is really not about guns, except perhaps to influence minds not already made up that any inanimate object will never be the cause of any act of violence perpetrated against another living soul. It really is all about the psychology of violence, not the tool.

Just in support of my previous statements, let's look at some massacres that happened prior to the invention of firearms, or at least prior to firearms becoming commonplace all over the world..


Firearms were invented in the 12th century in China, after the Chinese had invented gunpowder in the 9th century. These inventions were later transmitted to the Middle East and to Europe.

Link

Taking that date range into account, I think we can all agree that firearms did not become commonplace until well after the 13th Century.. So let us look at some of the better known massacres that happened prior to that range of dates

Note: I am considering a massacre to either be NON-Military or at least have its start in a non-military manner



Date: 390.. Place: Thessaloniki, Macedonia... Dead: 7000

Date:; Nov. 13th, 1002... Place: various cities, England... Dead.. Unknown.. Probable 40 to 400 in "one" day

Date: December 30, 1066... Place: Granada, Al-Andalus.. Dead.. 4000.. IN ONE DAY.. wow

Date: May 1182... Place: Constantinople, Byzantine Empire.. Dead: 60,000–80,000
(Wholesale massacre of all Latin (Western European) inhabitants of Constantinople by a mob.)
IN ONE MONTH

Link 2

Okay.. So I have made a point here hopefully.. (More info in the link) The point is that, while not intentionally being heartless here, the shootings we have seen recently, Colorado, Virginia, FT Hood ETC, Are nothing compared to what humans have shown themselves capable of throughout history.

Every death is tragic yes, and to be avoided or prevented at all costs, yet we are discussing massacres here so as much as I feel for the victims and their families, the reality is that except for wars (Even then, it is TPTB in control that is the "fault"), guns have nothing to do with a massacre.. Humans on the other hand do.

So, what causes humans to kill on such a scale?

If I could answer that, I would be very very rich and even more famous. What I can do is look at some of the psychology involved as well as other factors..

Factors that have been involved in massacres historically

1. Ethnicity
2. Religion
3. Revenge
4. Politics
5. Anger?

Now that list is interesting in regards to ATS. What do I mean? If you look at the really controversial topics on ATS, ones that generally become heated and yes, get people in trouble on a polite site, you will find those topic related to the list above.

All more or less human concepts, all volatile, all potentially destructive to the human psyche.. Trust me when I tell you in my career I have had to deal with violence perpetrated due to that list on more occasions then I care to remember. Add family troubles to that and you have what I have been handling for 27 years.

So why the question mark for anger? Why is it even included? In recent massacres it would seem that the perpetrators are “calm, cool and collected” and anger does not seem to play a part. Or does it? Anger is not always readily apparent, especially if that anger has been within the person for a long period of time. Humans do adapt to almost everything we experience in life, including anger. So while it is not always easily discernible, could it be effecting the individuals psychology and thereby also their actions and thoughts? I would say yes.

So no, I do not have any answers, I have only questions like the rest of you. I just know there MUST be some kind of a paradigm change for all of humanity before we step away from killings on a mass scale, or really even for killing in general.

Some things I want to cover later on as this progresses in my mind are

1. Does the existence of the Death Penalty only further such incidents as the mind can use such things as the {"State having the authority to kill---I am part of the state---These people deserve to die"} to justify violence?

2. Can we look at "Mob Violence" particularly prevalent recently in riots and "Wild West Hanging Parties" as another psychological justification for killing?

3. Do Combat Vets have a higher propensity for mass violence due to their exposure to death on a scale civilians almost never see?

4. As we have heard in movies, does the killing become easier after the first one?

I would love any input ATS Members may have on the questions I have listed as well as my thoughts posted so far.

More to come

Thank you

Semper




posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 02:58 PM
link   
Blame

Humans want, no humans need to blame someone. This occurs for several reasons perhaps the chief among these is a comfort found in a “scape goat” for something as maddening and as confusing as a massacre. Even knowing the reasons does not bring the relief that correctly laid blame does.

In this one man’s opinion is found the “reason” for blaming guns. Guns cannot fight back, guns cannot speak out and of course guns are evil creatures..
Seriously though, blaming an inanimate object relieves the “blamer” of any conscious objection to harm on another.

The phenomenon of “non-connected” guilt, as I coin it, is a very real and sometimes devastating condition. There have been documented cases of suicides that have been linked back to incidents thousands of miles away from the victim, but the victim began thinking about it, could make no sense of it, depression set in and, well the rest is history as they say. Taking this into account, I can understand and even sympathize with those that place their blame on an inanimate object. Does not make it right, but at times it can be healing.

Now, in this case in Colorado, we have someone to blame. We have someone to hate, someone to despise and abhor. Yet will any of this help those that are either connected adversely to this incident, or those with non-connected guilt complexes? Perhaps in the short run, but I have never seen hate, in any form, that did not fester and cause even more psychological trauma then even the original incident.

More later

Semper



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 03:31 PM
link   
Nice post.

One thing that I will point out is that, at least in the most recent attacks, they were perpetrated not by surly mobs, but by reasonably intelligent people who seem to share disenfranchisement or powerlessness as a common trait. While actions such as bullying or abuse has long existed, it is only in the last decade or so that acting out, in a brutal and often random manner, has happened.

Did Seung-Hui Cho or the Columbine shooters believe that they were acting out, in a meaningful manner, against society in their actions? Or had they just lost their connection to the world around them, determined to end their misery, and psychopathically decided they would take as many others with them as they could?

James Holmes may present the most interesting case, in that he acted in a similar fashion, but remains around to study and attempt to see what went wrong. Is he a true psychopath, psychotic, or something new? Though his behaviours over the past few months are mostly consistent with psychopathy, what we know of his background doesn't seem consistent with that diagnosis.
edit on 30-7-2012 by adjensen because: oopsies



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 05:17 PM
link   
reply to post by semperfortis
 


Sorry I had to step out before I posted this, but here it is even after a few hours....


First Id like to say that this was very thought out., and I would like to share my opinion.

I never compare the murders of today to those of the past. The times were completely different, and most mass murders were done for a reason, even thouogh it seemed logical to them at the time. Whether it be land, gold, tyranny, or kingship, this type of thing didnt always happen for just no apparent reason.

I am not dismissing the 5 points you made.
1. Ethnicity
2. Religion
3. Revenge
4. Politics
5. Anger?
As they are valid, but I do think that those are more geared towards this time, more then the past.

Now I would like to address the following qestions.1.

Does the existence of the Death Penalty only further such incidents as the mind can use such things as the {"State having the authority to kill---I am part of the state---These people deserve to die"} to justify violence?


It would have some effect in my opinion if it was actually something that people feared. This process is time consuming, which I would assume would anger the victims more then those awaiting to die, for 10-15 yrs.


2. Can we look at "Mob Violence" particularly prevalent recently in riots and "Wild West Hanging Parties" as another psychological justification for killing?


IMHO NO! Simply put for people to be upset over something that they can end fascinates me. Letting our "elected officials" cause us to be so angry confuses me. As far as riots, as long as people are not murdering, then there should never be a reason to stop a riot. I think that the suppresions of riots can cause more harm.


3. Do Combat Vets have a higher propensity for mass violence due to their exposure to death on a scale civilians almost never see?


Yes, and no. Before games like "Call of Duty" and others that actually glorify not only violence, but that you can "respawn" still agitates me. There are so many people out there that just dont get it. Ask a veteran of most wars before those that we cannot explain, or tell the true reason why we were there in the first place, regret what they have done, and live in pain and remorse.


4. As we have heard in movies, does the killing become easier after the first one?


To be honest I have never killed anyone, so I cannot answer that, and if I was looking for an answer about something so serious I would not be looking at the movies to guide me.


Peace, NRE.



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 03:33 AM
link   
quite interesting... have often observed along with still puzzled by human nature at times ....
a couple things have noticed that stick out a bit
1. In large groups / crowds people tend to go crazy much like rats in a cage they get more violent / aggressive ...

2. have seen a few times individuals that instead of normal anger get a cold , calculating rage where they still think clearly but carry out their anger violently and in a controlled manner rather than blindly lashing out ..

3. cultural - in the west there is a culture of death / violence that people are exposed to from birth leading them to think violence / anger are the way to resolve problems ...

4. did my time in military when was young and stupid saw 4 tours in vietnam with s.o.g ... and in the years since worked as a physician in war zones and disaster area's around the world that few dare set foot in ... cant speak for others... but every death Ive seen haunts me .. its not something that should be glorified or turned into a game...

will try add more later ... have to think how to phrase what trying to say in english ... apologies english isnt my native language and I find it rather limited ...



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 08:36 AM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 



they were perpetrated not by surly mobs, but by reasonably intelligent people who seem to share disenfranchisement or powerlessness as a common trait.


Behind every mob, you will find someone just like this


what we know of his background doesn't seem consistent with that diagnosis.


Actually his background fits perfectly within the currently diagnosed definition of a psychopath.. Completely integrated in society and a complete lack of empathy..

Semper



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 08:43 AM
link   
reply to post by NoRegretsEver
 



The times were completely different, and most mass murders were done for a reason, even thouogh it seemed logical to them at the time.


Same thing in modern times. Virtually no difference. While the "times" may be different, the individual psychology of a human has never significantly changed


I think that the suppresions of riots can cause more harm.


Perhaps the victims of the WATTS Riots and the King Riots and the Seattle Riots ETC would disagree.. Or the families of the victims I should say.


Before games like "Call of Duty" and others that actually glorify not only violence, but that you can "respawn" still agitates me.


Were you okay with the "Roadrunner"?? The Coyote was and remains the master of respawning.. Did not seem to effect the young of that day.. Or did it?


I would not be looking at the movies to guide me.


No one is

They are called "Reference Quotes" and if you research it some you will find the movie quotes are from actual commentary of combat vets in such noble tomes as "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Using "movie quotes" is a system used to engage more people into a discussion..

Semper



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 08:47 AM
link   
reply to post by Expat888
 



In large groups / crowds people tend to go crazy much like rats in a cage they get more violent / aggressive ...


The study of "Mob Violence" is really it's own science and I have not spent nearly enough time on it. But it is fascinating for sure and little to no difference in the mobs of the 1200s and those of today..


Semper



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 09:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by Expat888


3. cultural - in the west there is a culture of death / violence that people are exposed to from birth leading them to think violence / anger are the way to resolve problems ...

.



On the grand evolutionary scale mankind is still a primitive, tribal species where defense mechanism play a much greater part than logic. Real or imagined threats still elicit the fight or flight response but technology makes the "fight" response much more effective.
edit on 31-7-2012 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 09:12 AM
link   
reply to post by olaru12
 


Very true

And until we understand more about genetic manipulation, that is not going to change..

Considering we even allow true manipulation of our genetics which is a conspiracy all in itself

Semper



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 09:17 AM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
Actually his background fits perfectly within the currently diagnosed definition of a psychopath.. Completely integrated in society and a complete lack of empathy..


I haven't seen anything to indicate people noted a lack of empathy prior to this event -- do you have a source that notes it?

You might find this article on organized rioting interesting: #Riot: Self-Organized, Hyper-Networked Revolts—Coming to a City Near You (Dec 2011 issue of Wired)



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 09:21 AM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 


Nope

Just an armchair diagnoses

By default one would imagine that taking of human life, especially on such a scale, would indicate a lack of empathy.. No?

Semper



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 09:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
reply to post by adjensen
 


Nope

Just an armchair diagnoses

By default one would imagine that taking of human life, especially on such a scale, would indicate a lack of empathy.. No?


Yes, hence my question as to whether this may be something new. If a person doesn't exhibit classic psychopathic behaviour until they suddenly explode it might be dangerous to just assume that they are psychopathic.

And if he is not, does it point to something that can switch empathy off and on (and not in a conspiratorial sense -- perhaps via brain trauma, chemical imbalance or something else.)



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 10:02 AM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
reply to post by NoRegretsEver
 



The times were completely different, and most mass murders were done for a reason, even thouogh it seemed logical to them at the time.


Same thing in modern times. Virtually no difference. While the "times" may be different, the individual psychology of a human has never significantly changed


I think that the suppresions of riots can cause more harm.


Perhaps the victims of the WATTS Riots and the King Riots and the Seattle Riots ETC would disagree.. Or the families of the victims I should say.


Before games like "Call of Duty" and others that actually glorify not only violence, but that you can "respawn" still agitates me.


Were you okay with the "Roadrunner"?? The Coyote was and remains the master of respawning.. Did not seem to effect the young of that day.. Or did it?


I would not be looking at the movies to guide me.


No one is

They are called "Reference Quotes" and if you research it some you will find the movie quotes are from actual commentary of combat vets in such noble tomes as "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Using "movie quotes" is a system used to engage more people into a discussion..

Semper



Perhaps the victims of the WATTS Riots and the King Riots and the Seattle Riots ETC would disagree.. Or the families of the victims I should say.


I dont think of those as "riots" that was crime on a large scale. Though I hate to use a "wiki" link, this is sort of what I meant.


A riot is a form of civil disorder characterized often by what is thought of as disorganized groups lashing out in a sudden and intense rash of violence against authority, property or people. While individuals may attempt to lead or control a riot, riots are thought to be typically chaotic and exhibit herd behaviour, and usually generated by civil unrest. However, there is a growing body of evidence to suggest that riots are not irrational, herd-like behaviour, but follow inverted social norms.[1]

Riots often occur in reaction to a perceived grievance or out of dissent. Historically, riots have occurred due to poor working or living conditions, government, oppression, taxation or conscription, conflicts between ethnic groups, food supply or religions (see race riot, sectarian violence and pogrom), the outcome of a sporting event (see football hooliganism) or frustration with legal channels through which to air grievances.

Riots typically involve vandalism and the destruction of private and public property. The specific property to be targeted varies depending on the riot and the inclinations of those involved. Targets can include shops, cars, restaurants, state-owned institutions, and religious buildings.

en.wikipedia.org...


Were you okay with the "Roadrunner"?? The Coyote was and remains the master of respawning.. Did not seem to effect the young of that day.. Or did it?


Are you comparing a coyoto buying an anvil from Acme, and it landing on his head and not dying, to call of duty?



They are called "Reference Quotes" and if you research it some you will find the movie quotes are from actual commentary of combat vets in such noble tomes as "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Using "movie quotes" is a system used to engage more people into a discussion..


Its not that I havent heard of it, I just thought it was a poor choice of reference, to such a serious subject.

Peace, NRE.

BTW, I also think that the perception that "people never change" is what causes excuses for the crimes that people commit today, as long as we think that our surroundings have nothing to do with our choices, the more that people will find an excuse to do stupid things.
edit on 31-7-2012 by NoRegretsEver because: to add



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 10:09 AM
link   
reply to post by semperfortis
 


Explanation: S&F!


1. Does the existence of the Death Penalty only further such incidents as the mind can use such things as the {"State having the authority to kill---I am part of the state---These people deserve to die"} to justify violence?

2. Can we look at "Mob Violence" particularly prevalent recently in riots and "Wild West Hanging Parties" as another psychological justification for killing?

3. Do Combat Vets have a higher propensity for mass violence due to their exposure to death on a scale civilians almost never see?

4. As we have heard in movies, does the killing become easier after the first one?


Answers as requested [please note that these are IMO answers and I have no facts to hand to present.]

1] Yes! If I am a citizen [and therefor armed ... Go 2nd Amendment!
] ... then yes I am sure I can make a case for JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE on a grand scale and let the courts decide the fallout. Either way, guilty or innocent, the victims are still dead.

2] No! The USA is a REPUBLIC and not just a democracy and therefor mob rule is to be discouraged heavily and cannot be justified.

3] No! Although I can point out the Ft Hood shooter and the OK FBI Building bomber as examples of combat veteran instigated massacres ... I can also point to many civilian instigated massacres such as the Virgin Tech massacre and the Colombine Massacre and the very recent Aurora massacre and it seems, to me at least, that being a combat veteran is not a prerequisit to unleashing this kind of hell and horror.

4] Yes! And talking from personal experience, since I was forced to erradicate rabbits on my parents rural property due to local council rules, my 1st life taking experience COMPLETELY CHANGED ME after I stuffed the 1st shot and didn't kill the poor baby rabbit instantly and was punished by having to end the poor things life by snapping its neck with my bare hands as it bled all over me! I felt its life LITERALLY slip through my hands.

My dad reminded me that these animals were vermin and pests and to deal with those facts and not become positively or negetively emotional over my actions or, likewise, become emotional about my victims.

After that I never missed a shot again and killing anything became 2nd nature to me.

Personal Disclosure: I hope my answers to the questions posed in the OP help you and my fellow members find some truthful meaning in them. Feel free to prove me wrong as I have provided no independant facts to back them up ok.
edit on 31-7-2012 by OmegaLogos because: Edited to fix spelling.



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 10:15 AM
link   
reply to post by semperfortis
 



The most Ironic thing is this. As a species, we really havnt evolved, in ways that have made our species any better, then our ancestors. We still kill, we still have wars. We have technologically evolved, at how to kill. Regardless though, You have made great points. If someone really wants to, they can murder a family, in their sleep, with just a rock. Why? Because they can. Because they want to.



Sad, actually.


S&F



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 10:27 AM
link   
reply to post by semperfortis
 


Explanation: St*rred!

On the issue of revenge, blaming an inanimate object or a whole nation, non (?) connected guilt and taking some form of extreme action over that, ...

... How should I as a legally insane citizen of a country that is an ally of the USA, deal with [i.e. act upon] such incontrovertible proof, of repeated and deliberate inexcusable inhuman criminal actions, as these ...

The 13 Most Evil U.S. Government Experiments on Humans (by ninjas4321 posted on 31-7-2012 @ 07:43 AM) [ATS]

... ???


Personal Disclosure: What actions would you endorse me taking, in light of such evidence?



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 12:58 PM
link   
reply to post by semperfortis
 


To be honest; I'm surprised as Malthusian concepts manifest, and people are forced to do more with less resources and the accompanying frustration...

I'm astonished there aren't more mass killings. I shows human adaptability to stress and a certain positive character on our quest to being civilized. I honestly thought we would have blown ourselves to kingdom come by now. And I have made modest preparations for a gnarly future but every time I get kissed by a beautiful woman my faith in mankind is restored.



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 04:18 PM
link   
Bumping, for reality.......




posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:42 PM
link   
I have had quite a bit of time on my hands lately and I have been thinking about this topic..

I would like to pose a question to those interested..

Looking at past massacres and comparing them to the recent Active Shooters, one thing is prominent.. In the past, massacres were generally instigated by those in power.. TPTB as is used here so often..

The recent rash has been by comparative nobodies..

Is this a result of societal influence, peer pressure, socioeconomic factors or something completely different?

It would be wonderful if we could pinpoint the problem to something as cut and dry as the video gaming industry, however it is apparent that this is something far more complex.. As is most things dealing with the human psyche..

Semper






top topics



 
8
<<   2 >>

log in

join