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If You're Poor, You Didn't Get There On Your Own. Government Helped You Get There...

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posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by The Old American


Collectivists: Not doing anything on their own since...ever.

You can only go so far with the butterfly effect until it gets ridiculous.

/TOA


You've never done anything on your own either. That's the whole point.

You can call me a collectivist all you want. You're typing on a computer that you (most likely) had no means to create yourself. You were educated by somebody at some point. You drive on public roads and walk on public sidewalks.

You wouldn't be speaking a language right now if it wasn't for 'collectivism'. 'Collectivism' is the reason human beings stopped picking fruit and started hunting in groups. 'Collectivism' is the reason we built cities, and governments. The founding fathers were 'collectivists'.



Correct. The computer everybody uses to type on here uses an the x86 technology developed for NASA and the packets of data are sent down a network protocol established by the Department of Defense.

...and people whine about their precious tax dollars.




posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by flashtrum
 


Well assuming you don't own a robot army you built yourself, it's true. You never build a business on your own. Otherwise you'd never have to hire anyone.


I'll be sure to tell that to my brother - how sorry you are that he didn't build his business. That it wasn't his savings that bought a small company. That it wasn't his but on the line when he needed credit to expand that business and keep people employed. That every night he has to go to bed wondering if he's going to be able to make payroll the next week but first - nod to the government.That Obama allows him to drive on a road at 7 am in the morning and 10 pm at night to and from work - and he should be grateful for the experience.

I'll be sure to tell him he needs to thank Barry for that. Please.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:12 PM
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reply to post by The Old American
 


I tried to say the same thing on one of the original posts about Obama's you didn't get there on your own. But you did a much better job than I did. Way to go man. You hit the nail on the head.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by tkwasny
I believe many interpret "trickle-down economics" to mean because one person has a lot of money, they GIVE it away to the poor. That was never what it meant. How many people making $30K a year are going to hire YOU for a $30K a year job? If someone makes a lot of money, they will invest it into their company to make it grow which will require more people to be hired. The "trickle-down" effect is the presentation of additional OPPORTUNITIES for the poor to get a job because someone had invested capital. Trickle down never was some welfare or charity benefit of wealth redistribution either voluntary or forced.


My god...the ignorance is astounding.

You do realize that supply-side economics was an alien theory that flew contrary to the sum total of human history that the academic and financial communities alike had to invent the terms "voodoo economics", "Reaganomics", and "trick-down economics"...right?

Given the spiraling descent of our economic prosperity since we embraced this idea...I'm speculating that we should take a cue from the other 8,000 yrs of human history and start realizing that it is the demand that comes first.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by boot2theface
 


You said it man, they just keep pushing you down making it harder and harder each time to actually be able to "thrive".
LOL Grateful to the government for giving you food assitances.....true Anarchy. I wont be surprised if later on in this world we will have to beg the government and literally kiss their feet in order to recieve somekind of help. Or as they like to call it a "reward".



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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I guess it all comes down to how you define poor. I have no real money. My vehicles are early 90's models. I don't have the big house. I guess by most standards I would be considered poor. Funny thing is a feel rich beyond measure. I have a garden that provides my family with good food. I have chickens that provides us with eggs and meat. We are working towards getting goats so we can make things like cheese and soap from the milk. We have plans to build a greenhouse so we can grow food all year long. I have a dream to go completely solar energy. I have a dream to make this place completely self-sufficient. I have a dream to share what we make and grow with others. I have a woman in my life who loves and supports me. We have a beautiful energetic son. I live in peace with my neighbors and we share with each other often. We have peace to live love and believe what we wish. We have a place to teach our son good values. Maybe the problem isn't with being one or the other. Maybe its how we as humanity teach and define these values.

edit on 30-7-2012 by TRGreer because: Typo



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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I am living in general poverty here in the UK.

I had a good life, however a series of unfortunate events brought my life crashing down, making me worth nearly £2 million pounds in debt and leaving me in such a hole that I can never ever have any kind of financial identity, period (e.g. I cant even hold a bank account).

I barely exist, which is quite satisfying but quite difficult...for example I only have enough earnings to pay for the next months rent on my house (because I can never get a mortgage again).

I can never have any savings because doing so will send the vultures onto me and make my life a living hell.

Out of sympathy my current bank (HSBC) gave me a salary account, one that can accept salary payments and perform a single online transfer - otherwise totally useless to me.

Thankfully my wife is in good credit so I am able to survive (barely) and I have started to get some debt advice (wit the possibility of bankruptcy) to clear my name or at least put myself in a position where I can maybe plan for the future.

Being poor is a refreshing feeling. Believe it or not, I feel more at ease now than when I did have the nice house, cars and money in my bank. It's humbled me and made me appreciate life a lot more, I am thankful for the little I do have.

However I have made a policy to not borrow any money to get out of my situation, rather I am willing to graft hard to get some income in any (legal) way I can like working weekends, evenings etc.

Selling off what possessions I have is also quite refreshing (spiritually and mentally) - it's hard to let go but when you do you realise you can quite happily live without that item (whatever it is).

BUT....a lot of it has been caused by a whole series of events, starting with and being perpetuated by government policies from out of touch politicians who care not a bit about the general public.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by The Old American


Collectivists: Not doing anything on their own since...ever.

You can only go so far with the butterfly effect until it gets ridiculous.

/TOA


You've never done anything on your own either. That's the whole point.

You can call me a collectivist all you want. You're typing on a computer that you (most likely) had no means to create yourself. You were educated by somebody at some point. You drive on public roads and walk on public sidewalks.

You wouldn't be speaking a language right now if it wasn't for 'collectivism'. 'Collectivism' is the reason human beings stopped picking fruit and started hunting in groups. 'Collectivism' is the reason we built cities, and governments. The founding fathers were 'collectivists'.



Correct. The computer everybody uses to type on here uses an the x86 technology developed for NASA and the packets of data are sent down a network protocol established by the Department of Defense.

...and people whine about their precious tax dollars.


To you and your leftist brother your replied to - it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to surmise that the person you replied to didn't build the PC he was likely typing on. But you can bet for darn sure it had little to do with the government either. Nasa built the PC? Tell that to the folks who founded IBM and Steve Woz. Nasa succeeded and was a crowning jewel because the American public demanded it. So yes the Apollo program led to record number of patents, but even the post office (which was once actually profitable) is on the verge of bankruptcy, and they WERE the only self-sustaining government agency. Everything else requires my tax dollar whether it is spent wisely or not and 9 times out of 10 it is peed away.

Why? You can't sustain paying a bunch of uneducated employees more than they are worth plus guarantee they can live off of the government after retirement. But your unions continue to ensure that even the global economy won't recover, because your brothers in places like Spain need to ensure they get their 2 months paid time off. Never-mind a business can't work on such a model.

This country was born of and continues to thrive on the INDIVIDUAL who takes a concept and makes it a reality. The founding fathers were hardly your quote end quote collectivists. That was the whole reason they wrote the constitution and I might add respectively fought each other on how it should be written because they knew what an important document was that they were authoring. Rather than attempting to assimilate please make your intent public - you are socialists who believe in Marxist/Lennonist ideals.

The US federal government and the legislation that our current administration has been able to get through Congress has done zilch for the middle class or the poor, and in the meantime all they do is threaten the real job creators, which is why REAL unemployment impacts AT LEAST 1 in 10 Americans. Don't you get that the INDIVIDUAL who creates real prosperity leads to more for you? Oh that was a dumb question. But it's true.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by old_god
 


But you don't have to worry about getting sick and being poor. When you are unemployed in the US, you pray you don't get sick. Not every sickness is a emergency room event. Like cancer, it takes a while to make you sick.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by glasshouse
 


I would imagine so.

I would also assume that the reason anyone would want the Fed work waiver to be re-worked would be to grant the power away from the states to decide and collect more central power. And that this country is getting more right wing fascist and the only sort of welfare that is acceptable is that to corporations and bankers.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by The Old American
What I believe Obama meant to say:

"There are a lot of poor, downtrodden Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been on welfare, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so dumb. There are a lot of dumb people out there. It must be because I worked much less than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of lazy people out there.

/TOA


That was epic. I am at a loss for words right now.

RealSpoke, Star for you, that was some great follow up.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by FractalChaos13242017
I've always been kinda 'poor'... and I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Never once did it cross my mind that receiving some form of 'welfare' was ever appropriate. It's pretty sad when people hop on the 'welfare' train... because the next stop is a long time after their departure from responsibility. Granted, there are always circumstances that arise, but cmon!

I know a guy who claimed bankruptcy 4 years ago, due to his own actions... owns 3 houses, rents 2 of them out, owns the largest house in his neighbor hood, has a nice swimming pool, hot tub, pool table... ultimate bachelor pad... and this a-hole is on food stamps? Not to mention, the 4 other people living in his current residence are on food stamps! Every single last one of them could be working, but no... They can get the government to pay for their food, give them cash even, lower their electricity bills, lower internet bills.... and all sorts of other craziness. So basically, there are 5 people... sitting around, nerd herding the internet, eating non stop all day and contributing absolutely nothing to society.



They chose this, we made it possible... time for change!

I demand! lol.... Mandatory drug tests by every single individual who uses welfare!!!

Even if all drugs were legal, still... this vice keeps people poor, and even with government money... they remain poor! I'm getting soooo sick of paying for other peoples addictions with taxes.

I'm addicted to cigarettes, at $5 a day, x 30, that's $150 a month... lets say I make $300 a week at some crap job... 1200 a month... left after taxes... 800(if lucky)... then pay rent at $500 a month for a crap room, another 200 a month in random utilities and phone... omg I'm left with only $100!!!! But I smoke $150 a month on them!!!

How will I ever afford to live?!?! Foodstamps!! and Money from the government!!

Or... quit smoking, and find different means that are in accordance with my wage?!!?
Ahh... prosperity hidden in the shadows...

What I'm getting at... is, Who wants to buy me a pack of cigarettes?

Nobody!


Do you have any idea of what drugs are? My doctor has continually tried to prescribe me "medicatioNs" such as Welbutrin, Man made marijuana pills called Cesamet, Respiridol and Seroquel. All made by Eli and Lilly, Glaxo Smith and Kline, Johnson and Jonhson etc.

So tell me what harm is it that anybody does drugs? Marijuana has a myriad of medical uses - just do a google search. It's been known to alleviate depression and anxiety, which is something that most welfare recipients suffer from after being on SS for a long time, and since there are no jobs what do you expect people to do? Keep their head high? It's time to turn off the Disney channel dude. The game is over. It's a whole new paradigm and we've got to begin adapting. But we're going out of our minds. We can't relax for one second so we take amphetamines like red bull, five hour energy, diet pills, nicotine, coffee, oreo cookies, cheese burgers and in copious amounts - even combined - for a legal high.

This is so damaging, and cancer inducing - doesn't it make you sick to your stomach? Just imagine if everyone had access to marijuana which has only been illegal now for 80 years. Imagine the productivity that could be accomplished if people were able to clear away the matrix and free themselves. This is exactly why marijuana is illegal. It's a miracle drug - as described by my bi polar neighbor.

It cures a lot of things, and it can be used to make a lot of things so it would cut out a lot of middle men like Big Pharma for example. Do you really think your doctor would prescribe you Xanax or Effexor for depression when you can select through 10000000 different strains of marijuana which have been proven a lot more safe and effective than these other drugs?

Don't you think it's kind of ignorant to think that just because you're allowed to have an addiction - doesn't mean that someone else isn't either? Addictions are coping strategies. Give a monkey some money and he buys sex. That's been proven. Have you read Choke by Chuck Palahniuk? He talks about how Dolphins rub against the smooth side of their tank in order to masturbate. It's their only escape from their matrix.And then when people can't find drugs, they become "compulsive masturbaters" because that's their only way of getting off like a dolphin.
edit on 30-7-2012 by Triesta because: (no reason given)

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edit on 30-7-2012 by Triesta because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by flashtrum
 


He should. Without his employees, he probably would have given up having to do it all alone.

Sorry but appeasing to emotion and sarcasm won't work here. Your bro wasn't alone. And if he didn't need any help, he wouldn't have hired Barry in the first place. He should thank his employee for being there.

A good manager is just that. A good manager. If he's # at communicating people, he did not become a good manager all alone. His assistant who was good at communicating helped him.
edit on 30-7-2012 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by The Old American
 


you know i had a nice long post but the more and more i thought about it. and after rereading it This is just a point the finger blame game. the system can work if you work it. but if you don't get off your *## your not going anyplace. just because you was born in this world don't mean you deserve a plot of land and a income every month. the system is setup to keep poor people poor and rich people richer that i agree with.

its evident in plane sight "credit". Great income= low down payment and low interest charge. The people that need that car to keep making it paycheck to paycheck, needs the biggest down payment and will pay a higher rate. You know if they was reversed it would help so much if the guy making the big income pays the higher rate and the ones with low income at a lower rate. you would see such a big boost in middle class. Guessing.... i'm defiantly no expert on things... i'm sure there are other repercussions I don't see. anyway the system has been setup like that on day 1. I will not even get into the federal reserve/utility bills/ bills accumulated from schooling/ It is the goal to Make sure that a adult now starts off in debt with a negative number and work your way up. IT DON'T HAVE TO BE DONE THIS WAY. but it's where they want you....



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 11:42 PM
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Somebody helped to create this atrocious American system that we have that allowed you to stay poor

Yup, it was the federal reserve, you know the people who enslave us only to make them richer.



posted on Jul, 30 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by milominderbinder
 

Yeah, I guess I did completely miss that!
I still feel like I've got the more logical argument on the Govt/Business debate though.
I believe all the examples of government virtue you have provided require money.
This revenue is created by collecting taxes.
Citizens pay taxes in the form of money.
Citizens earn this money from businesses.

Stop business: government has no natural source of revenue to spend on all its projects.

Stop government: you would still see people willing to buy goods and services they want as well as the people that make it their business to sell it to them



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 01:25 AM
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Even if you are partially true that the system keeps you there.... it is 100% true that the individual places themself there in the first place... or in the case of single mothers, often willingly place themselves there.



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 01:37 AM
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reply to post by The Old American
 


Everyone thank The Old American for interpreting the Usurper's message for us. Because i don't speak or understand Jive, It's always nice to have an interpreter on site!



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by The Old American
 


Fox and co misquoted him and demonized his quote.

They put spin on everything. Why would you trust what they have to say? Read the quote yourself....

All he was trying to promote was team work. Don't be lame the way Fox wants you to be. Bill O´reily would be proud. Murdoch as well since nobody bothers to check anything. He likes to think of us as white trash morons...his words...

Don't trust this lie. They want to influence yet another election and subvert the democratic process by thinking FOR YOU.

Obama may not be a saint, but he was talking about team work, not political suicide....he is not retarded. He never said we OWE the government anything. He said we can thank each other for our prosperity and the fact we built what we got with team work, nothing else. The rest is like biblical interpretation, its subject to what you want to see.



If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for president — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.” (Emphasis added.)

On TV, Republicans are saying, "those are the words he said, he said those words so it's not a lie to say he said them because he said them." And he did. He also said the other words, which -- when you read them in order -- tell a much different story. If you have a business, you did not build the roads on which your customers drive to get to your store.

You did not build the electrical infrastructure that makes sure your sign lights up. You did not conduct the research that scientists did to create the plastic polymers that are used in the product you sell. THAT is what he was saying. And it's time our American media stopped being so lazy and told the whole story.
www.examiner.com...



edit on 31-7-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2012 @ 02:16 AM
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reply to post by The Old American
 

I think the President could have provided more context. But I think he was saying no matter how successful any American is in business, his/her success relied on government and public help - the roads, electric lines, communication lines, banking regulations, money and taxes to pay for all the infrastructure a lot of us take for granted. The President basically was making the point that America’s opportunities come from all of us collectively operating together with our taxes to provide a starting point for business, whether rich or poor, that anyone can use to build on. There is no successful American businessperson who has not depended on the American communally paid for base structure of roads, etc. Best we all recognize this and then do the right thing and provide health care and education for all, otherwise who is going to continue to support and improve America’s under-skeleton. and currently, America’s corporations are not showing themselves to be pall that patriotic what with outsourcing jobs, offshore tax havens, etc. Selfishness has to have a limit.



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