If You're Poor, You Didn't Get There On Your Own. Government Helped You Get There...

Originally posted by BritofTexas
reply to post by glasshouse

 

Then minimum wage needs to be raised and enforced. If the workforce is payed a living wage then they can pay taxes.

It's businesses paying low, unlivable wages that force the country to step in with welfare.

The largest group taking advantage of the welfare system is business.

WAIT: businesses' pay taxes To the govt.:
businesses' pay workers who pay taxes to the govt.;
(Taxes on the profits created by business) are washed through the leviathan which is govt (gov't takes its cut pays its' workers).

Gov't pays welfare from collected taxes.

Seems to raise the minimum wage we should stop all taxation.then business could pay workers more without the leviathan skimming its cut.

reply to post by 46ACE


Businesses lobby for Tax loopholes.

That's why the Tax code is so convoluted.

Originally posted by BritofTexas
reply to post by glasshouse

 

Then minimum wage needs to be raised and enforced. If the workforce is payed a living wage then they can pay taxes.

It's businesses paying low, unlivable wages that force the country to step in with welfare.

The largest group taking advantage of the welfare system is business.

Raise the minimum wage and prices raise accordingly. How about a $6 loaf of bread, or a $10 hamburger? $10/gallon of gas sound good to you? It's either that or businesses stop hiring altogether. Actually they'll likely lay employees off, close shop, and move to countries that have lower wage laws. Gosh, sounds familiar! Grow up and learn something for a change.

/TOA

reply to post by The Old American


Excellent post. You could do another thread along these lines and discuss Obama's economic policy. His policy boils down to this ... trickle up poverty. I think you could do a great thread on it.

reply to post by BritofTexas

Either way the "welfare state" is paid for by economic activity(businesses) or people employed by businesses.Govt merely redistributes.

reply to post by BritofTexas


Thanks! Good dialogue.
have a good one!

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by BritofTexas
reply to post by glasshouse

 

Then minimum wage needs to be raised and enforced. If the workforce is payed a living wage then they can pay taxes.

It's businesses paying low, unlivable wages that force the country to step in with welfare.

The largest group taking advantage of the welfare system is business.

Raise the minimum wage and prices raise accordingly. How about a $6 loaf of bread, or a $10 hamburger? $10/gallon of gas sound good to you? It's either that or businesses stop hiring altogether. Actually they'll likely lay employees off, close shop, and move to countries that have lower wage laws. Gosh, sounds familiar!

So we should work for free? This must be some new version of Capitalism that I wasn't previously aware of.

Grow up and learn something for a change./TOA

Ah. An insult. The last bastion of a lost argument.

reply to post by 46ACE


Agreed.

Apologies for the short post.

The problem with poverty isn't because the govt gives them hand outs....that helps but, really, I know a lot of low income people who do not take welfare but still live poorly. The problem that keeps people in poverty is something much deeper...

It's called a culture of ignorance and a tolerance and acceptance of poverty as a cultural identity. Go to the hood.....go to the trailer parks....it's not culturally acceptable to be ambitious, educated or to leave the hood.....all it is does is make you look like a goody two shoes, stuck up idiot in a suit who "thinks he is better than everybody else". they are not cheering each other on when they pass an exam, or get a pay raise....instead they are hating on each other and putting each other down about it. It isn't socially acceptable to progress....it makes you seem "different" and snobby.

it's a culture of people who would rather live in poverty and be loved and accepted amongst their peers, than tell their peers to #off and rise up the ladder. It's men holding other men down by calling them "sellout" if they try to better themselves, it's women who hate on other women if they try to get an education, and it's the people who allow their peers to hold them back.

There will always be those that follow the status quo of the group, and those rare gems that rise up and do not care what the group says.....those rare gems are the ones who make it out of poverty and the rest of the group repeats the cycle.

reply to post by The Old American

**You are not encouraged to get off of welfare and make a life for yourself.**

You don't know the half of it! "not encouraged" is the understatement of the day. Think "Penalized", "Punished", "screwed upside down". I am on disability, and EVERY last of my efforts have been blown to smithereens by the govt. The last one was a Pith- Poor attempt by the IRS to turn me into a "criminal" because it was shown I could actually get a tax return while in school! How much? 10s of thousands? Thousands? Nope. Think $1000. They actually HELD the return for 3 months, and then.... they investigated me up one side and down the other. It has made me reconsider doing this next year.

If I make "too much" I am penalized ($560 a month extra at last look was "too much"). I am not allowed to hold stocks, bonds, land, and if I had a car, IT would be considered an "asset"! On the flip side, consider this: someone I know needed help with their power deposit. Do you know what they were told? " If you had a large bill, like an SUV payment, we could help you". She left in shock, and need I say, with no help.

But... if you are of certain *cough* racial persuasions.... You get anything you want on a silver platter. Before anyone decides to spit out the R word... I have been thru the system- more times than I care think about. It isnt just a guess- I have seen it personally. I have seen stuff that would make any one of you blow a blood vessel in rage.

reply to post by BritofTexas


I haven't seen anyone suggesting that someone work for free. Point that out for us, would you? However, up until the '30s, when Lord FDR was in charge, people could contract to work for whatever wage was agreed upon. It was called the "liberty of contract", and more often than not it worked out in the worker's favor, because it was the business owner that needed workers. But then good ole FDR set a minimum wage law in 1938, thus killing any leverage a worker had to demand a fair wage.

Wages would likely be higher today for menial jobs such as a fry cook had the progressives kept their noses out it.

And it wasn't an insult, it was a suggestion. Just trying to help you stop looking foolish.

/TOA

Originally posted by The Old American
What I believe Obama meant to say:

"There are a lot of poor, downtrodden Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been on welfare, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so dumb. There are a lot of dumb people out there. It must be because I worked much less than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of lazy people out there.

If you were on welfare, somebody along the line helped you get there, and stay there. There was a government program somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this atrocious American system that we have that allowed you to stay poor. Somebody gave you food stamps and extended your stay in welfare. If you're on welfare, you didn't do that on your own. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we are poor, we stay poor because of our kollectivist "everyone is a victim" mentality. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody kept their own wages. That would be a hard way to keep you under our jackboots."

This is the reality of being poor in America. You are kept poor. You are kept enslaved. You are not encouraged to get off of welfare and make a life for yourself. You are a victim and must keep sucking on the teat of Mother Government.

And if you are successful, it is your responsibility to help keep the poor there. After all, it was your fault they were poor in the first in the place. You had some, they had none, therefore you were wrong. And keeping them poor gives the rich something good to spend their dirty money on. Because America can't thrive without victims.

Keeping the poor that way gives the guilty something to do. Something to make themselves Feel Better. And that's all we need, right? To Feel Better. "I helped someone today to feel good about being poor."

/TOA

Nah, he meant to say what he said and has hardly backed off on the comment. Nice speech writing for him, though. He's a socialist that believes deeply in Marxism, and his biggest problem is when he speaks off teleprompter like this where they can't control his every word, he makes it clear just how radical his views really are.

So far, I haven't seen much in this thread outside of common partisan rhetoric.

Libs: "Poor people are victims!"

Cons: "Poor people are lazy bums who leech off of the rest of society!"

Why doesn't anyone seem to take a reasoned, adult approach to the situation and admit that yes, there are definitely LARGE problems on both sides when it comes to welfare and our economic system?

I couldn't agree more about the culture of poverty, and it being a faux pas to aspire to something greater (in most of the poorest and close knit communities). I also couldn't agree more about people in poverty with bad habits that keep them from doing better. That's a big reason why I support drug testing for welfare.

On the other hand, the graph posted early clearly showed that many welfare recipients in America DO have jobs, and of the worst kind. So obviously, most are not the bloodsucking leeches the Randians snub their noses at.

I know today's GOP likes to blatantly ignore facts and figures, but the rest of us can clearly see the numbers.

Personally, I have seen welfare be the most difficult to obtain for lower-middle class families. People like my mother who is single, with three children, and a nurse's salary. Yet, she's been at her job for a long time and has accrued a salary the just barely puts her over the mark to receive any type of government assistance. No medical insurance for her or my two younger siblings, oh well!

My partner recently got a raise at work and now we're worried about the kids losing their state health insurance because it might just nudge her over that bar.

The stories go on and on when brought up with people I know.

It's not like I have a solution. I just know that there are some more fundamental elements that need to be looked at, and the main stream media is doing a great job of distracting everyone by turning them against each other.

reply to post by boot2theface
Last time I checked the big bad Government gets it money from tax paying Americans, so if you thank anyone it should be them.

reply to post by The Old American


You do realize he was talking about bridges and roads....

Originally posted by Tarzan the apeman.
reply to post by boot2theface

 

Last time I checked the big bad Government gets it money from tax paying Americans, so if you thank anyone it should be them.

No they don't, the Government used to get money from the taxpayers. But, today, it borrows all it needs from China.

Thank the Chinese. Pray that they don't one day stop lending US that cash.

reply to post by MackeyfromMars


This is ATS, everything is extremist. Having a truly moderate opinion is frowned on. I have to say, you have raised some good points. I think the problem is there is a lot of abuse and it just engenders knee jerk reactions in people. As for the bad habits of poverty, I don't tend to view it as drug use (although it does occur). Most of these bad habits are related to how they save and spend their money. There is nothing approaching a true financial education in most public schools and parents can't teach what they don't know. Yet, i do concede some people will never do what they know is right.

reply to post by The Old American


I'm thinking I became poor the day my employer realized they had complete control over me, and that there wasn't much I could do about it. There's a whole line of college grads waiting to take my job, for less money. The unwillingness of the people in this country to stand up to corporatism is why I am poor. "corporations are people too" What a crock.

/TOA, looking for government employment so I can get a decent paycheck

Originally posted by The Old American
What I believe Obama meant to say:

"There are a lot of poor, downtrodden Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been on welfare, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so dumb. There are a lot of dumb people out there. It must be because I worked much less than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of lazy people out there.

If you were on welfare, somebody along the line helped you get there, and stay there. There was a government program somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this atrocious American system that we have that allowed you to stay poor. Somebody gave you food stamps and extended your stay in welfare. If you're on welfare, you didn't do that on your own. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we are poor, we stay poor because of our kollectivist "everyone is a victim" mentality. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody kept their own wages. That would be a hard way to keep you under our jackboots."

This is the reality of being poor in America. You are kept poor. You are kept enslaved. You are not encouraged to get off of welfare and make a life for yourself. You are a victim and must keep sucking on the teat of Mother Government.

And if you are successful, it is your responsibility to help keep the poor there. After all, it was your fault they were poor in the first in the place. You had some, they had none, therefore you were wrong. And keeping them poor gives the rich something good to spend their dirty money on. Because America can't thrive without victims.

Keeping the poor that way gives the guilty something to do. Something to make themselves Feel Better. And that's all we need, right? To Feel Better. "I helped someone today to feel good about being poor."

/TOA

The problem with SOCIAL PROGRAMS is that they were made to ENSLAVE people to the Federal Government and State Government. There are not enough checks and balances in that system of ENSLAVEMENT to ensure people have a way to get off the system and on their way to financial freedom. Also, our TAX SYSTEM is unfair and puts anyone not ENSLAVED to the SOCIAL PROGRAMS as direct responsible PAYERS of that system so that those on it can remain on it.

We DO NOT know for sure what the actual numbers of those on the system of ENSLAVEMENT, based on AGE and RACE which makes me wonder how many whites, blacks, and other are on the system and what age groups they are. These DEMOGRAPHICS would help de-myth the ENSLAVEMENT SYSTEM so that everyone knows who that system is designed to ENSLAVE.

Both SOCIAL PROGRAMS and TAX SYSTEMS need overhauling or doing away with.