Do we even practice religion?

I'm watching a debate between a panel of atheist and religious scholars. The topic of this debate is: Would we be better off with or without religion. If you would care to view this debate I will post a link at the bottom.

The reason for this thread, however, is to ask, Do we now, or have we ever truly practiced religion?

When we think of all the religious wars and crusades throughout history, if we lifted the veil of religion couldn't we say to these warring people, "Ha! This isn't a war over a god or religious beliefs, you guys are killing each other for greed and power and land and hate. And these things are what humans want, not what any god would want."

And if we flip that coin to consider those working for religious charities, if we again lift the veil of religion couldn't we say to these people, "Hey, you're not feeding the poor and the sick because some god wants you to. You're doing this simply because you're good people. You want to give love and be loved. And no matter what religion you followed, you would be doing good work anyway."

So, when people say that they are 'practicing Catholics' or 'practicing Muslims' or 'practicing Jews' just what does this practicing entail?

Of course there is prayer and going to church or temple, but when it comes to the question of 'Would we, as an entire species, be better off with or without religion, do we even practice it?

www.youtube.com...

This should spark a good debate on ATS as well, but I'm staying out of it. Good questions though,,,

Spend a few years studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism and then come back and answer your own questions.

reply to post by jiggerj


James 1 holds the key. As context to this verse, consider what Confucius said on the topic of education: He said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand." The point of religion is to apply what you hear and see. Apart from the teaching of law, there can be no deconstruction. In terms of refinement, the alchemical term dissolution is relevant.

James defines religion this way:

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

To know where he is coming from by context, read what comes before and compare to what Confucius said about education. What is the point of religion? It is to do by example. Our archetype for the goal is Christ. Giving rather than taking. Read the link of deconstruction above. The point is this: Liberty by Justice. Freeing truth trapped in error. To be with truth, we must be in context with it. The only way to learn is to be out of context with it first, then rise to it by trials. Removing hatred and bias is not possible apart from the law. The law is love. What law can be broken if we do unto others?

19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

I would say that the examples you posted of war & charity are largely out of the scope of the POINT of religion. The practice of religion for the purpose of spiritual cultivation isn't something you can measure. You can only measure the effects. If somebody is properly practicing getting close to God, this takes place in private - in their homes, churches, or masjids.

It's when they start to achieve better character due to God consciousness that these things are reflected in their day to day life.

and God knows best.

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
I would say that the examples you posted of war & charity are largely out of the scope of the POINT of religion. The practice of religion for the purpose of spiritual cultivation isn't something you can measure. You can only measure the effects. If somebody is properly practicing getting close to God, this takes place in private - in their homes, churches, or masjids.

It's when they start to achieve better character due to God consciousness that these things are reflected in their day to day life.

and God knows best.

Good answer! So, we agree that when any religion has tried to force itself on a society, or indeed, the whole world, the true hidden agenda has had nothing to do with religion, but has had everything to do with selfish human need and desires?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
I would say that the examples you posted of war & charity are largely out of the scope of the POINT of religion. The practice of religion for the purpose of spiritual cultivation isn't something you can measure. You can only measure the effects. If somebody is properly practicing getting close to God, this takes place in private - in their homes, churches, or masjids.

It's when they start to achieve better character due to God consciousness that these things are reflected in their day to day life.

and God knows best.

Good answer! So, we agree that when any religion has tried to force itself on a society, or indeed, the whole world, the true hidden agenda has had nothing to do with religion, but has had everything to do with selfish human need and desires?

Sounds about right. According to teachings of my religion, the only time war is allowed is in self defense (despite popular opinion) and that's normal, humans should defend themselves from aggression.

However war is usually financially motivated, or it's motivated by a supremacy mind frame, where as it seems every religion throughout history has been about humbling humanity, and controlling or even destroying the ego with its negative qualities. How can one say they adhere to their religion while engaging in ego based actions?

I'm an atheist and I'm a happy, secure and fulfilled person. If people get the same feelings with religion in their lives, then it's fine by me.... so long as

1. They keep it to themselves
   
2. It is not part of the curriculum in state funded schools
   
3. It is illegal to lobby governments to legislate on their behalf
   
4. They cannot give donations to political candidates or any other form of government
   
5. They pay full taxes
   
6. Do not receive any government funding
   
7. Any holy man/woman preaching hatred and intolerance is shot into space
   
8. null
   

IRM

Originally posted by visualmiscreant
This should spark a good debate on ATS as well, but I'm staying out of it. Good questions though,,,

Don't worry, my friend. This has nothing to do with arguing the existence of god, but only in separating what is truly religious from deeds derived from human nature.

I'm just surprised that neither side of the debate I'm watching even thought to bring this up. Religion cannot be blamed for any war. Even if one person kills another over religious beliefs, that murder occurred solely out of human ignorance and human hate.

Even if humanity had been set up with half the population as brick layers, and the other half lawyers, these professions would have been used to justify wars, prejudice, and greed.

Phew... thank God I'm an Atheist

reply to post by jiggerj

Understood, I just have a tendency to get over my head in these religious debates. I'm not a debater by any stretch of the word; just a guy who happens to believe in Christ wholeheartedly. Nobody here can take that from me, and I don't want my words to take that from someone else. I expect to get flamed and called names for my beliefs; that's part of it. It's something you accept with the package.

I don't agree with 99% of what the "Church" has done in the name of God either. I certainly won't defend it. "They" dug their own grave, but forgot to bury themselves. They shouldn't complain about the buzzards who constantly circle them. They should confess these things openly and repent, just as they demand of others. I don't see it coming though.

I hope your thread gets the attention it deserves, and I have starred and flagged it for that reason.

reply to post by jiggerj


If grown-ups need an imaginary friend then who are we to stop them?

There I go... Well I retracted it. This debate isn't gonna get anywhere with me responding to posters in that fashion...


Religion has been responsible for preserving that which I hold dear, so I do owe it that. Just to stay on topic I thought I would clear that up...

reply to post by jiggerj

So, when people say that they are 'practicing Catholics' or 'practicing Muslims' or 'practicing Jews' just what does this practicing entail?

My opinion....
The practicing Catholics/Christians and Muslims and Jews..... at least the ones who haven't discarded their religion... all believe in God. That makes them "practicing".

Originally posted by jiggerj
I'm watching a debate between a panel of atheist and religious scholars. The topic of this debate is: Would we be better off with or without religion. If you would care to view this debate I will post a link at the bottom.

The reason for this thread, however, is to ask, Do we now, or have we ever truly practiced religion?

When we think of all the religious wars and crusades throughout history, if we lifted the veil of religion couldn't we say to these warring people, "Ha! This isn't a war over a god or religious beliefs, you guys are killing each other for greed and power and land and hate. And these things are what humans want, not what any god would want."

And if we flip that coin to consider those working for religious charities, if we again lift the veil of religion couldn't we say to these people, "Hey, you're not feeding the poor and the sick because some god wants you to. You're doing this simply because you're good people. You want to give love and be loved. And no matter what religion you followed, you would be doing good work anyway."

So, when people say that they are 'practicing Catholics' or 'practicing Muslims' or 'practicing Jews' just what does this practicing entail?

Of course there is prayer and going to church or temple, but when it comes to the question of 'Would we, as an entire species, be better off with or without religion, do we even practice it?

www.youtube.com...

edit on 7/29/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

edit on 7/29/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

edit on 7/29/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Joining a group to understand god/something more is counterproductive from my point of view if all you are feed is dogma/conditioning that make you lose your way. I like reading spiritual books from all over the world and seeing what that view/religon says and catogorize it on a duality/nonduality scale to see how nondualitypure the message is by really thinking about what the message is saying and pondering the meaning of the texts.

It is humanity that create dogma/indoctrination and wants us to follow dogma/indoctrination. Some indoctrination is good some is bad and it is up to you to figure out what is right for you. It is up to every soul to choose the type of relationship it wants with whatever god/universe/all is. My advice is really to keep the golden rule and think for yourself.

The religous wars is just from my point of view people caught up in duality (im right, against another in the right one) that cannot see thru it. Sometimes both sides are right sometimes both sides are wrong. Most times all humans are more or less crazy and I include myself in this argument . I was doing things that can be considered good before I found something more and I am still doing things that can be considered good sometimes. Prayer for me is about trying to seek answer from something else and I do not do it in a subordinate way. It is about using that brain we have recived to understand all things and the more it is used the more it gives back and the more understanding we recieve.

Thank you for your post and the chance to use my brain a little. It needs the exercise. Ps I might be totaly wrong and if I am please correct me so that I can evolve further.

Originally posted by BlueMule
Spend a few years studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism and then come back and answer your own questions.

In a way I think you and I are assholes to the people who have not yet gone that way and have found that way of understanding. I will not say that our way is 100% right because it might be that we are trapping ourselves in a lower level of understanding than the OP might find on his path. And even if we are right he might evolve faster than ous towards something from his path than we will from our. What if we are on our way to a stagnant point where we cannot evolve anymore? I feel quite happy with my path but what if I am deluding myself and cannot see the forest becuase I am focusing on a tree again? What if we are creating a new dualiy driven thing that is based on nonduality vs duality. Are we any better than the religons as a whole who cannot see beyond duality?

Bah. Need more input/information and really a smarter and bigger brain. This one is pushing the limits all the time and I feel so stupid when it happens .

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
I'm an atheist and I'm a happy, secure and fulfilled person. If people get the same feelings with religion in their lives, then it's fine by me.... so long as

1. They keep it to themselves
   
2. It is not part of the curriculum in state funded schools
   
3. It is illegal to lobby governments to legislate on their behalf
   
4. They cannot give donations to political candidates or any other form of government
   
5. They pay full taxes
   
6. Do not receive any government funding
   
7. Any holy man/woman preaching hatred and intolerance is shot into space
   
8. null
   

IRM

I loved number 7. If they cannot do the work the get out of the way from someone who can show the highest ideal a human mind can hold. And I am definetly not a posterboy for that so pick somebody else.

reply to post by InfaRedMan

I'm an atheist and I'm a happy, secure and fulfilled person. If people get the same feelings with religion in their lives, then it's fine by me.... so long as

1. They keep it to themselves
2. It is not part of the curriculum in state funded schools
3. It is illegal to lobby governments to legislate on their behalf
4. They cannot give donations to political candidates or any other form of government
5. They pay full taxes
6. Do not receive any government funding
7.Any holy man/woman preaching hatred and intolerance is shot into space
8. null

Agreed....
so long as points # 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 also apply to non-religious people.
Point 7 about hatred and intolerance also applies.

Originally posted by DPrice
reply to post by jiggerj

 

If grown-ups need an imaginary friend then who are we to stop them?

If you have nothing to contribute it baffles me why you even came..

I practice what I preach, which is "The Golden Rule," that Jesus talked about on the Sermon on the Mount.

Does that make me religious? Could be, but I prefer to consider myself a humanist.