Can I?

reply to post by JoshNorton



I think i understand
no need to join in to learn what i already learned in other way
one thing for sure .. i will not go through occultist to seek THE path
there is to many groups and religious groups that try to block the truth from you
its with spirituality, goodness and the pure heart of people
that create a direct and stronger link with the Creator

This is what i have learned
correct me if im wrong with what you have learned with the mason
we do share the same goal .. being better and greater

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Ben81
Yes i agree but you really need to make deep research yourself to connect all the dots
At least when you guys learn .. its a concentrated knowledge direct to the truth
no more metaphores and labyrinth of questions about afterlife and space and who we are
your teachers make you see a direct path not a zig zaging path full of holes
with exagerated fairy tales

Nope. Again, you're wrong.

Nowhere in Freemasonry do we say “this is the way it is” because NOBODY can say that with any certainty. You think Freemasonry spells it out? Our whole system of learning is allegory and symbolism, or hadn't you heard? It's ALL metaphors and labyrinth of questions of who we are.

The answers are for you to figure out for yourself, not to be spoonfed to you by someone else.

You mean unless you join to have the blueprint for this labyrinth
outsiders will not have the same blueprint .. the map will have traps
i do love the chalenge to decipher the clues that the ancient have left us
its the biggest treasure hunt of my life

What humans Are ?
What I Am ?
Where Do I come from ?

Since our memories are wiped out clean in each lifes
you just need the correct trigger

Originally posted by Ben81
i do love the chalenge to decipher the clues that the ancient have left us
…
What humans Are ?
What I Am ?
Where Do I come from ?

Here's a hint. None of the ancients knew the answers either. They were just the first to ask the questions.

In recent years, a majority of humanity, in our hubris, has stopped even pondering the questions, much less sought answers.

The secrets of the ancients was the curiosity that modernity has ignored.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

And now, .....Deep Thoughts, by Josh Norton............
/cue the soft music/

"The secrets of the ancients was the curiosity that modernity has ignored.

In all seriousness, this is an amazing quote, and tells more than most paragraphs do.

Originally posted by network dude

"The secrets of the ancients was the curiosity that modernity has ignored.

In all seriousness, this is an amazing quote, and tells more than most paragraphs do.

Ok, I'll admit, that one might be a keeper. But I need to work on the verb agreement?

secrets … were or secret … was

which do you think flows better?

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Oceanborn

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Ben81
What does any of that have to do with Masonry and your mommy-issues?

Really? You are the one who believes in fairy-tale beings like the Devil and I am asleep?

How do you know he doesn't exist? I'm not trying to start anything,i just couldn't help but ask since i've seen other freemasons here say the same thing with the same confidence.



If my post will be considered off-topic and gets deleted i'll just start a thread about it and PM you to join.

This is my answer and may not be the same as other masons. In researching all the claims about masonry being demonic and how we worship Satan and Lucifer, we tend to do a lot more study into these "entities" than most people do. In research, we find that most manifestations of evil were created by man in popular literary works to scare the reader, and they did such a fantastic job, it kind of stuck. The hell most know of was first described in Dante's Inferno, and the image it represents is what preachers still throw at parishioners today.

So if the Devil dressed in red with a pointy tail and a pitchfork is your mental image of Satan, then you may have fallen for a classical representation of Evil.

Evil exists and can evolve in any of us. Just as good can. It's up to each individual to learn to subdue his passions and keep himself with the boundaries of the rules of mankind. (that's a masonic lesson or "secret" as you might know it)

So the devil only exists if you let him. I chose to put my energy into God and bypass the devil completely.

Thanks for the reply.

It's true that we find descriptions of demonic creatures in novels and what not but they don't matter,neither it matters if some (or many) people are effected in any way by them since they should know better.I'm not interested in books such as those and neither i have read any of em (dante's inferno for instance,never even touched it.the only "dante's inferno" i know is the album of iced earth ).
The thing is,satan as an entity is being mentioned in the holy scripts.Yes,some people (including me) believe in that evil entity (for those who don't understand,belief and worship isn't the same thing).I want to point out that claims such as "devil doesn't exist,it's a fairy tale" are false and are based on personal beliefs,not knowledge.There's the danger of misinformation and it can easily happen even if there's no intention for it.
You were honest enough with me and said that it's your personal opinion based on literature and your research in general that such entity doesn't exist.That's your belief and i respect it 100% but that doesn't make it a fact (i'm not saying you personally implied such a thing).So,both sides are based on beliefs,not facts.

What i know so far is that noone has proof about satan's existence/non-existence and i think network dude will agree with me that we just have different beliefs,nothing more,nothing less.Now,if someone has something more i believe most of us would be very interested to know about it.Until then i think we all should care a little bit more about what we say and how we present it as we could easily mislead others.

That's pretty much it.Excuse my long post.

reply to post by Oceanborn


I see it like this. There is no proof God exists either. At least, none that I can offer anyone. So the only way God exists is that I have Faith in him. My faith is energy that I use to talk to him, to confide in him, to learn from him. If I spend any energy at all worrying about Lucifer, or Satan, or Ted Bundy, I am wasting energy that I could be devoting to God. So while the Bible may say Satan exists, I chose not to place any effort into manifesting that entity.

It works with idiots too. You just ignore them and pretend they aren't there and eventually, they go away.

Just opinion, no fact at all.

Originally posted by network dude
It works with idiots too. You just ignore them and pretend they aren't there and eventually, they go away.

I wish I were a good enough biblical scholar to find a passage that could be interpreted as "don't feed the trolls."

reply to post by network dude


Well said about God,we can't prove that either.

As for the "ignoring" part,i have a different way of thinking (we can't agree on everything,can we? ) :
I think of satan as traffic(cars,trucks etc) and God as a childhood friend who,after many years,returned and is waiting for us.If we'll cross the road to meet our friend without checking first for possible incoming traffic then we might get hit by a car and not only miss our goal (which is meeting our friend) but also even losing our life.Personally,i think our friend can spare a few extra seconds for us so we can safely cross the road and finally meet him.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
How do you know he doesn't exist? I'm not trying to start anything,i just couldn't help but ask since i've seen other freemasons here say the same thing with the same confidence.

Because the Biblical Satan is an amalgamation of several mythological entities.

Originally posted by giugliot
But the higher the masonic levels...

Define 'higher Masonic levels'.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by giugliot
But the higher the masonic levels...

Define 'higher Masonic levels'.

You beat me to it, AM.

In regards to levels there are none "higher" than the degree of Master Mason. Once the Sublime Degree is attained, the Mason is equal to all members of the Order.

If by levels, you mean rank in the officers line the same holds true. I know so many Past Masters I stopped keeping count. I also know and am close friends with several current, or soon to be installed Worshipful Masters. These men consider me an equal, treat me as such, and are no "higher" than the next Mman sitting on the sidelines. They have simply dedicated more of themselves to the Order through time spent learning.

reply to post by giugliot

What would you consider high level and what is low level? Many non-Masons seem to have different views as to what constitutes high vs low.

Originally posted by KSigMason

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
You are not my enemy at all. You are your own enemy. From what I have seen, the Masons are ignorant of their own history and the significance of the oaths they take. Know the meaning of the word Theurgy. This is what ritual magic is all about. It is a form of taking from God at the level of using one law against another. Theosophy is the study of the Mysteries and related symbols. What does Theurgy, Theosophy and Masonic Ritual have in common with pagan magic?

Your opinion and theories are not proven history. I understand theurgy and what your trying to saying Freemasonry. I'm telling you are way off.

Context? One statement saying I am off does not provide the reason why.

reply to post by Ben81


Wait there weren't any dress up demons in the ceremony? I swore i saw like 50 of them running around taunting the kids.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Oceanborn
How do you know he doesn't exist? I'm not trying to start anything,i just couldn't help but ask since i've seen other freemasons here say the same thing with the same confidence.

Because the Biblical Satan is an amalgamation of several mythological entities.

So you saw similarities between satan and other mythological entities and assumed satan doesn't exist.

That's not knowledge,that's an opinion.

If you have knowledge about it then pass it.If you don't want to do so then just say so but i can't understand why someone would start making claims about things he knows and then just stop there.

EDIT: Allthough i read the whole thread,i forgot (or didn't notice,who knows) you've allready said in a post of yours that you believe there's no satan:

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

The Devil? Do you really believe in childish nonsense like a big red man with a pitch fork and a tail?

What about people like me who do not believe in the Devil? Who or what did I sell my soul to and how can you 'sell' your soul to something that you do not believe in?

That pretty much settles things for me.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
So you saw similarities between satan and other mythological entities and assumed satan doesn't exist.

It is not just similarities, the mythos is a combination of preceding mythos. The contemporary conception of Satan is not present in the Old Testament.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I think it was you or network guy that said you would answer any questions,or maybe it was Ksig?

However, here is my question: How do I find out who I am?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Oceanborn
So you saw similarities between satan and other mythological entities and assumed satan doesn't exist.

It is not just similarities, the mythos is a combination of preceding mythos. The contemporary conception of Satan is not present in the Old Testament.

By "combination" don't you mean that satan has a part(as you claim) from one mythology,another part from another etc? With other words,aren't you saying that he's not entirely identical with what myth x,y or z is talking about? Are those myths that you referring to identical themselves?
Other than that,if it's not much of a trouble please let me know who these myths are and where are the parts of them that you're referring to because so far i'm just going by your own word and claims while i don't know which myths you're talking about.

What do you mean by "contemporary conception" ? My english are not perfect by any means but i guess you're saying that the entity in the Old Testament doesn't "agree" with what we know now? Where's the difference?
Anyway,i'll write down where satan is mentioned in the Old Testament and we'll take it from there i guess:
1 Chronicles 21:1
Job 1:6
Job 1:7
Job 1:8
Job 1:9
Job 1:12
Job 2:1
Job 2:2
Job 2:3
Job 2:4
Job 2:6
Job 2:7
Psalms 109:6 Mentioned as "an accuser" in revised standard version. As satan in King James version. As "[the] adversary" in Darby version and as "διάβολος" (devil) in the greek version 108:6
Zechariah 3:1
Zechariah 3:2

Originally posted by Oceanborn
By "combination" don't you mean that satan has a part(as you claim) from one mythology,another part from another etc? With other words,aren't you saying that he's not entirely identical with what myth x,y or z is talking about? Are those myths that you referring to identical themselves?

Exactly. Satan is an amalgam of preceding myths, borrowing parts of older mythos to make a new mythological entity that shares some, but not all of what is borrowed.

Other than that,if it's not much of a trouble please let me know who these myths are and where are the parts of them that you're referring to because so far i'm just going by your own word and claims while i don't know which myths you're talking about.

Look up pre-Caananite Hebrew, Phonecian, Egyptian, Babylonian, etc. Anything predating Christianity will have an entity or entities that may have some semblance to the contemporary Satan but may not share all of the attributes.

What do you mean by "contemporary conception" ? My english are not perfect by any means but i guess you're saying that the entity in the Old Testament doesn't "agree" with what we know now? Where's the difference?
Anyway,i'll write down where satan is mentioned in the Old Testament...

You need to have a direct translation of the Aramaic and Hebrew texts and you will see that there is no 'Devil' mentioned. The Hewbrew texts alone have multiple entities, both supernatural and human, that can be corrolated to the modern concept of Satan. The modern concept of Satan is purely a Christian one and is the reason why I say it is a fictitious entity.

The being in Job is not the ruler of Hell but an entity charged to tempt human beings and report back to God. He reports to God and is therefore not a fallen angel and does not fit the contemporary view of the Devil.