Waco Texas, What happened there in 1993? Documentary from 2011 explains the horrible incident..

This incident inspired a lot of interesting response from other portrayers.

There was the X files episode "the field where I died"
www.insidethex.co.uk...

The episode was written after Ruby Ridge and Waco on the ATS conspiracy timeline but only about 6 months before the "heavens Gate" incident. Good sample of the astral from that period.

reply to post by texasgirl


and what about Mark Lane......why was he there?...
Mark from Kennedy assasination book.....Executive Action.
edit I'm in Mckinney

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


From that same source:

On July 30, Aguilera joined ATF compliance officer Jimmy Ray Skinner to conduct a compliance inspection of the premises of Henry McMahon, proprietor of Hewitt Hand Guns. The inspection revealed that certain AR- 15 lower receivers supposedly in McMahon's inventory were neither on the premises nor listed in his records as sold.\6\ McMahon indicated that they were in the possession of David Koresh. McMahon then called Koresh, who offered to allow the agents to inspect for possible firearms violations. The agents declined the invitation.\7\ Shortly thereafter, McMahon told Koresh that he was suspicious that an investigation of Koresh and his followers was underway.\8\

It is unclear why the ATF did not accept the offer to do a compliance inspection of Koresh's firearms. Importantly, the Treasury Report fails to mention that Aguilera had an opportunity at the time of the compliance inspection to inspect Koresh's firearms. Wade Ishimoto, a reviewer of the Treasury Department Report, indicated to the subcommittees that he had not been made aware of the McMahon compliance visit by the Department of Treasury during his review.\9\ Mr. Ishimoto maintained that Koresh's offer should have been accepted, presenting an invaluable opportunity to gather critical intelligence.\10\ The agents'
decline of the Koresh offer was a serious mistake.

Long before the televised event the ATF made glaring "mistakes" that are "unclear" why the mistakes were made. This was not a boondoggle made by local Sheriff's or police, not even by State police, this was a federal boondoggle that was, in the words of The ATF Investigation "The ATF's investigation of the Branch Davidians was grossly incompetent. It lacked the minimum professionalism expected of a Federal law enforcement agency."

Grossly incompetent, and while you seem willing to admit this, only up to a point will you admit this, and when it came to the televised event that followed the "grossly incompetent" investigation, you expect people to buy your memory of that televised event being an example of highly competent federal agents who were blameless in the ultimate death of women and children.

There is a reason Due Process of Law has been imposed upon governments in this nation. The Waco incident is genuinely tragic example of what happens when that Due Process of Law is ignored and disregarded.

June 2003 and After: House Subcommittee Releases Edited Audiotape of 911 Calls from BATF Raid on Branch Davidians

The House Appropriations subcommittee investigating the Branch Davidian tragedy in Waco (see March 1, 1993 and April 19, 1993) releases heavily edited excerpts from 911 call conversations between federal agents and Davidian members made during the February 1993 raid on the Davidian compound by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF—see 5:00 A.M. - 9:30 A.M. February 28, 1993).

Edited 911 call? Why edited?

The McLennan County, Texas, Police Department releases unedited versions of the tapes shortly after the House subcommittee makes its tapes public; federal prosecutors who intend to prosecute some of the surviving Davidians (see August 7, 1993) had intended to keep the tapes secret until the trial. Senator Dennis DeConcini (D-AZ) asks Attorney General Janet Reno to investigate the tape’s initial release, saying: “Who edited the version of the tape given to the House in the first place, and why, in that version, are conversations with David Koresh out of order? Is there a reason why the FBI, for training purposes, would leave out the threatening statements made by the Branch Davidians on the actual tape?”

Who edited the 911 tapes and why?

The House subcommittee was told that the tape was an accurate recording of the first half-hour of local police negotiations with Davidian Wayne Martin. “The release of altered tapes that are evidence before a grand jury is an assault on the department’s integrity,” DeConcini writes. “It is essential that this matter be investigated thoroughly and that the individuals responsible receive the most severe penalties available under the law.” The edited tape makes it appear that the 911 call center could not reach BATF agents for almost an hour after the 911 calls commenced. The police tapes feature two unedited hours of conversation between Martin and local law enforcement officials, and show that 911 operators made contact with BATF raid commanders within a half-hour of the first call to the hotline by Martin. The police tapes also indicate that BATF officials worked closely with the 911 call center to negotiate a cease-fire and evacuation of wounded federal agents.

But hey! Those wascally wabbits in the federal government are saints merely fighting evil. Who needs Due Process of Law when we have such saints looking after us?

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle
the sad reality on waco is that the fbi and atf decided in the end, that murdering children was acceptable, hows that for a wake up call to anyone who thinks the govt is there to help them.

so you actually believe that koresh didn't have anything to do with this...i guess if your wife and kids were held at the point of an automatic assualt rifle and not allowed to leave after days and days of negotiations, that would be considered sanity....

koresh was a nut bag and many of his followers brain washed, but that doesn't excuse the govt for what they did to the kids. those people were no danger to anyone outside of that compound and i'm guessing the govt. just snapped and decided to end it killing children or not.

anyone seen trying to leave the building were shot on site, so i guess at that point what you have is murder of innocent kids, plain and simple.

I'm sorry, THAT is an outright and demonstrable LIE.

No other way to put it and I AM saying it outright. You're either genuinely confused or you are deliberately spreading false information to support your point. There ARE no 3rd options here because what you describe never happened. Let me repeat that, IT NEVER HAPPENED.

No federal agent or other man or woman OUTSIDE the compound fired a weapon that killed anyone trying to leave the compound on the day it was burned to the ground from the inside, and with liberal use of acceleration that made that place light up like tissue paper....and golly..odd thing if it wasn't acceleration..because it ALSO burned all the way out to his little storage bunker or whatever one wants to call it.

There is debating...I love it. This isn't it. You're directly accusing ..SPECIFIC Men and Women of the U.S. Government of the cold blooded murder of children, attempting to flee a dangerous situation. Now that is so far over, I don't know where that line quite is anymore?


Also, forensic evidence.... Real, physical forensic evidence show POINT BLANK gunshot wounds to the heads of numerous little kids and their bodies were found around the inside of the rooms of the Davidian compound. I chose my words carefully here because it's important that be clear. INSIDE....they were shot...point blank...execution style...to their heads. NO chance it was 'stray fire' someone could imagine from agents outside. They were point blank to the head.

So WHO killed children that day isn't in dispute and unless someone wants to claim Federal Agents just teleported past all the cameras recording the scene to appear inside and commit a massacre (without any being hurt of course), then the Davidians EXECUTED their OWN children.


Now.... I'll eat my hat if you can show me video or ANY solid evidence of ANY kind showing someone outside the compound firing ANY weapon with a correlation to a human being being hit and going down...or even showing signs of being HIT on that final day. I'll even video it. IT NEVER HAPPENED. (Evidence means just that. Not someone "saying" whatever. Words are worthless and every side on this has truckloads. EVIDENCE.) Thank You.

Alex Jones is always going on about how there is video of them shooting kids in the head and running babies over with tanks. Do any of these exist? Or is he just trying to plant memories into peoples minds that never happened?

Originally posted by RealSpoke
Alex Jones is always going on about how there is video of them shooting kids in the head and running babies over with tanks. Do any of these exist? Or is he just trying to plant memories into peoples minds that never happened?

I couldn't have made a challenge more direct or outright obnoxious. I'm actually surprised I didn't have a steaming note ready to burn my paws from the Mods for having gone that far.

You don't see replies with evidence though...huh?

How much would some love to take how far I just went out on a limb right there.....as a great opportunity to cut it off behind me and watch the Bunny fall? If such evidence as you and I suggest actually existed...we wouldn't have to debate it's existence.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by texasgirl

 

Well, first, to your point of the chaos of the initial raid that started it.....Don't expect to ever hear me say a single word...not one...to defend the ATF cowboy crusade here that started a siege which never had to happen. There damn sure should have been some ATF agents lose careers and pensions over it. David Koresh was known to go into town regular enough and could EASILY have been arrested on the street. No fuss...no muss...no hassles. No dead kids.

However, your account here is missing something enormous. As the world learned later, ATS had an informant inside the compound and far from being shocked the ATF arrived, they were waiting on them and armed to the teeth. I don't doubt the 911 call, as panic was surely the rule once the shooting started. However, one of the BIG points of the entire post-incident investigation was WHY the ATF went ahead with a raid they knew the compound had been warned of and was expecting.

No....My debate on facts of Waco don't start with the raid. I think I agree with everyone else that ATF created a catastrophe where a routine arrest on a public street should have been what happened. I just disagree with the wild theories of how it ended.



What do you think happened in the end? Are you saying the Davidians shot their own children before the fires broke out? This is something I have not heard or read anywhere. The survivors that were interviewed said their religion did not believe in suicide so murder seems unlikely as well. I am not calling you out on this, just curious.

Davidian Jimmy Riddle's autopsy showed a single gunshot to the head, from a distance, and his right arm had been torn off, as if run over by a tank. His body was found under some burned floor boards amid ashes and yet his clothes were intact and barely burned. There were suspicions that his body was moved there, implying a cover-up.

I will have to read Whitcomb's book, as it sounds very interesting. He was an FBI agent at that time so I am a little leery of what he claims to be true.

reply to post by texasgirl

I appreciate you asking and actually I happen to have the information handy. Now that we're getting to the brass tacks, the number dead by gunshot, dead by cyanide poisoning and those who died by various aspects of the fire were challenging for them to sort out, as it shows in the interviews. The following excepts are from interviews conducted in 1995 by the PBS show "Frontline". Dr. Rodney Crow and Dr. Nizam Peerwani were a part of the post-mortem examinations of the bodies recovered from the compound and bunker.

This is long and the details are ugly...but I did not include any graphics here. Just text. It's plenty for the discussion. Anything more is just ghoulish. The link at the bottoms leads to the full text of these interviews as well as a great deal more information about the tragedy and related matters.

First, Dr Nizam Peerwani, Chief Medical Examiner for Tarrant County at the time of the events discussed here.

Q: In your analysis of cause of death, what did you find?

A: We had a total of 33 bodies from within the bunker. There were 25 children, and the remaining were adults, mostly women, I remember there was one or two adults -- young adults, males, there. Most of them had died as a result of smoke inhalation or suffocation. And a couple of them had died as a result of blunt trauma due to collapsing debris. There was this young Jane Doe who had a fractured neck, a cervical fracture. She probably died quickly as a result of that. But there were at least three kids who had been shot to death. And one was stabbed to death. The remaining, of course, died of suffocation or smoke inhalation.

Q: Were you able to determine how many, if any of them, died prior to the fire?

A: We did discover the presence of carbon monoxide as well as evidence of inhalation in at least 50 of the victims throughout the compound. Now, remember there were some 75 bodies left in the compound, that died as a result of the 19th of April disaster. Of these, there were 50 we could document presence of carbon monoxide as well as some evidence of smoke inhalation.

Q: There were a number of adult males that you determined died of gunshot wounds. Could you describe those bodies, where they were found and the cause of death?

A: David Koresh and Schneider were lying next to each other in their little room, which we call the communication room. And David Koresh had a single gunshot wound up his forehead. Schneider was shot once in the mouth -- the bullet entered the upper palate and also had -- exited in the back -- also had a high velocity gunshot wound. The question is: Did David Koresh shoot himself and Schneider shoot himself? Or did Schneider shoot David Koresh and then turn around and shoot himself? Certainly both are possible. We cannot be certain as to what really transpired.

Q: You did pick up cyanide though on 40 victims?

A: Yes.

Q: And there's no way to tell if in fact the cyanide that was produced in the process of gassing had any role in the deaths of the victims?

A: Let's put it this way. We did not attribute CS gas as a cause of death in any of those cases.

Next, we have the accounts of Dr Rodney Crow, Chief of Identification Services and a forensic dentist.

Q: Were there weapons to be seen?

A: There were weapons everywhere. I don't remember moving a body that didn't have a gun melted to it, intertwined with it, between the legs, under the arm or in close proximity. And I'd say 18 inches to 20 inches would be close proximity.

Q: Including the women?

A: The women were probably more immersed in the weapons than anyone else, because there was so much weaponry inside the bunker. It was like sea shells on a beach, but they were spent casings and spent bullets.

Q: Now that was the bunker?

A: That's the bunker. They stored the weapons in the safest place. Then on top of the bunker is where the 50-caliber was found.

Q: Could you describe their cause of death?

A: A lot of gunshot wounds there. My theory is there was a lot of euthanasia and mercy killing. That group probably were just about as active as anywhere in the compound, mercifully putting each other out of misery in the last moments.

Source both interviews above are linked out from

Most of the text above is abridged for post space to one degree or another. The link goes to the story and links to the Doctors interviews are under Item #9 in the story.

So.. there we are. Nothing is as bad or as good as either side would like to make it sound and nothing about this whole story should leave anyone feeling good. Everyone...Everyone lost. The Feds, the kids...everyone. I just won't stand to hear someone say Feds executed kids without SOLID evidence. No way. It simply never happened.

reply to post by texasgirl

I'm writing this shorter note to your last question of what I think happened. Cold Zero describes what they heard. The yelling and the orders they listened to from within the compound they were..I believe I recall them saying..50 yards from. The HRT Sniper teams managed to get almost on top of the compound without getting themselves shot so they had a great deal of perspective at the end.

Taking the accounts of the forensics, the court records Whitcombs book and what I saw and heard over the course of the siege from news coverage, I believe it was very much like Jim Jones and Jonestown. Koresh or Vernon, as one poster reminds us his actual name was.....set this up and was talking fiery apocalypse almost the entire duration of the siege. His demands revolved around reading or talking or being heard on that subject as often as anything else over the long weeks...so it was first and foremost in his mind.

Those who COULD leave...or would leave..did. They got clear in the period before they decided to do what they did. I think the armored vehicle put them on notice, no more deadlines or games...and Vernon did his thing with the die hard followers who hadn't already left.

The rest... only those who died there will ever know for sure...but the reports indicate the gunshots and not all in the last moments before things started collapsing and falling in on them. I guess the details went with them though, and just as well. The forensics tell far more than I really ever wanted to know. The graphics...are among those things I wish I could Un-see. However, how it ended, I believe, was 100% the choice and doing of Vernon and his command element within the cult. Everyone else went along or got stuffed to the bunker, to die there.

It's still enough to get a bit choked up about, going into this level of detail.. the damn kids... why?!

Well.. You asked for what I had..That is what fits within reasonable space as a summary anyway.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle
the sad reality on waco is that the fbi and atf decided in the end, that murdering children was acceptable, hows that for a wake up call to anyone who thinks the govt is there to help them.

so you actually believe that koresh didn't have anything to do with this...i guess if your wife and kids were held at the point of an automatic assualt rifle and not allowed to leave after days and days of negotiations, that would be considered sanity....

koresh was a nut bag and many of his followers brain washed, but that doesn't excuse the govt for what they did to the kids. those people were no danger to anyone outside of that compound and i'm guessing the govt. just snapped and decided to end it killing children or not.

anyone seen trying to leave the building were shot on site, so i guess at that point what you have is murder of innocent kids, plain and simple.

I'm sorry, THAT is an outright and demonstrable LIE.

No other way to put it and I AM saying it outright. You're either genuinely confused or you are deliberately spreading false information to support your point. There ARE no 3rd options here because what you describe never happened. Let me repeat that, IT NEVER HAPPENED.

No federal agent or other man or woman OUTSIDE the compound fired a weapon that killed anyone trying to leave the compound on the day it was burned to the ground from the inside, and with liberal use of acceleration that made that place light up like tissue paper....and golly..odd thing if it wasn't acceleration..because it ALSO burned all the way out to his little storage bunker or whatever one wants to call it.

There is debating...I love it. This isn't it. You're directly accusing ..SPECIFIC Men and Women of the U.S. Government of the cold blooded murder of children, attempting to flee a dangerous situation. Now that is so far over, I don't know where that line quite is anymore?


Also, forensic evidence.... Real, physical forensic evidence show POINT BLANK gunshot wounds to the heads of numerous little kids and their bodies were found around the inside of the rooms of the Davidian compound. I chose my words carefully here because it's important that be clear. INSIDE....they were shot...point blank...execution style...to their heads. NO chance it was 'stray fire' someone could imagine from agents outside. They were point blank to the head.

So WHO killed children that day isn't in dispute and unless someone wants to claim Federal Agents just teleported past all the cameras recording the scene to appear inside and commit a massacre (without any being hurt of course), then the Davidians EXECUTED their OWN children.


Now.... I'll eat my hat if you can show me video or ANY solid evidence of ANY kind showing someone outside the compound firing ANY weapon with a correlation to a human being being hit and going down...or even showing signs of being HIT on that final day. I'll even video it. IT NEVER HAPPENED. (Evidence means just that. Not someone "saying" whatever. Words are worthless and every side on this has truckloads. EVIDENCE.) Thank You.

There sure as hell was a piece of footage taken by the Texas Dept of Transportation from a helicopter that was available back then that showed SOMEONE picking off people leaving the back of the compound. That I recall vividly but it certainly wasn't on the nightly news. Also, your saying you did not see the turrets on the tanks pull out with flames exiting the barrel? As an environmental chemist I can assure you fire doesn't attach itself to a metal tube pulling out of a supposed set fire that is blamed on the 'suicidal maniacs' we are all asked to believe killed themselves in perhaps the most horrific of fashions. Why suffer so when bullets are quicker?

reply to post by Justoneman


Well, by all means, lets see the evidence. You'll note, if you read all you replied to, I absolutely have no interest here in what people recall, think they saw, were told someone else saw or swear on a stack of bibles 20 feet high they really really REALLY saw themselves.

In this case, it's accusing our own government of the murder of innocent people and in your example. you're going further by saying what vehicle it came from, at least in part. Okay, now we're down to specifically calling 1..maybe 2 people cold blooded murderers of innocents.

All I ask is one piece of evidence. Video... Court transcript of corroborated testimony given under oath or exhibits submitted as evidence. Anything. Anything at all. Just something beyond the text coming from our keyboards.

The standard of evidence is *HIGH* when one is claiming multiple counts of cold murder by Law Enforcement Agents in the line of duty. It's INSANELY HIGH when you say this happened in front of the world, watching...as you admit yourself, this was supposed to be visible on media footage.

Fair enough.. Can we see the footage? I said once before here....what I believe anyone claiming this is, outright and without mincing words. Period. Pics or it didn't happen? Naww.. I'm not THAT picky. ANY evidence will do.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I just won't stand to hear someone say Feds executed kids without SOLID evidence. No way. It simply never happened.

Who started the Waco fire?

Take note in all of those press releases of this one:

Coroner Would Welcome Waco Inquiry

'There is a Feeling That One Should Go Back and Reevaluate'

.c The Associated Press WACO, Texas (Sept 11) - As an independent probe prepares to look into the government's role in the 1993 Branch Davidian standoff, a medical examiner says he'd like to look again into the deaths of sect members who died from gunshot wounds. '

'There is a feeling that one should go back and reevaluate,'' said Dr. Nizam Peerwani, the Tarrant County medical examiner. ''The focus at the time was not whether the FBI was doing the shooting.''

There is much more to this tragedy than meets the eye.

Also take note of this press release:

FBI Aware Early of Waco Tear Gas

1993 Lab Report Shows FBI Knew of Military Tear Gas Projectiles By JOHN SOLOMON

.c The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (Sept. 10) - A lab document that the Justice Department failed to give Congress discloses that the FBI knew within eight months of the fiery end of the Branch Davidian siege that military tear gas projectiles were used, The Associated Press has learned.

A key final page from a 49-page FBI lab report was turned over to the House Government Reform Committee this week, along with an internal Justice Department memo acknowledging it ''was not produced to Congress'' during the 1995 investigations into the tragedy near Waco, Texas.

The first 48 pages of the lab report, dated Dec. 6, 1993, had been turned over to lawmakers years ago, absent the mention of the military-style tear gas that government officials for years had denied using.

..........

The government continues to maintain that religious sect members set the fire, and federal agents did not contribute to it. They have said the tear gas canisters bounced off a roof of a concrete bunker and into a field. Sect leader David Koresh and some 80 followers perished during a later blaze in a wooden structure away from the bunker.

Justice spokesman Myron Marlin said Friday night that former Republican Sen. John Danforth, who is heading an independent inquiry into Waco, will have to examine why the crucial page of the report did not reach Congress earlier. Marlin noted, however, that the page was properly turned over to lawyers in criminal and civil cases involving Waco survivors.

''Whether it was an adminstrative error is something that the special counsel will have to look at,'' he said. ''But we know that the plaintiff and defendants counsel received it.''

The lab report does not specifically state whether the gas in the shells was incendiary or when they had been fired. But the potentially flammable M651 tear gas canisters that the FBI belatedly acknowledged using on the final day of the siege are 40mm military shells like those described in the lab report.

These reports were made in 1999 several years after the televised incident. Some saw what they saw on television and have satisfied themselves that what they saw was all that happened, but the investigations continued for many years after.

I mentioned Waco and the stand-off at Ruby Ridge in another thread here the other day,and now I will say this again--I am not pro or con on guns,so I have NO AGENDA in saying this:Given just these two examples,in MY opinion,gun rights or no gun rights,I think in the grand scheme of things that it ultimately won't matter because the gov't/military has us out-gunned and out-weaponed (so to speak) and it will be pretty much NO CONTEST.
And--just to ADD to this thread/subject--there is ironically another thread in "top threads" relating how a parent refused to put their child on psych meds and SWAT teams and TANKS showed up in an attempt to get them to do otherwise.So...there ya go.....

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Thank you... I ask for evidence and you managed to bury me in material. My only complaint is that it's too late to get through all this tonight. I skimmed over that link though and saw enough to realize I need to start from the top and work down slowly to read it all.

I can't help but recognize the name you cited in the specific quote, of course. That grabs my attention right off the top and it appears the material you brought may add quite a bit to what those original investigations and forensics examinations produced. I honestly don't feel like I can say any more until I have the opportunity to get through it all tomorrow. You can bet I'll come back and give my impressions, good or bad for my own position, from what you just added.

I appreciate the time you took in sharing it.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Thanks for taking the time to read the material you wascally Wabbit. It was not my intention to bury you in a wall of text, only to apprise you of certain facts you may have been unaware of.

reply to post by morder1


I already responded once to this thread (s+f) but I wanted to pop in and say that if you haven't seen the movie "Seige At Ruby Ridge" I highly recommend it,it's based directly on the book you mentioned reading "Every Knee Shall Bow" and is a great movie,IMO.
Whoever in this thread (I cannot recall now) who said that religion had nothing to do with this--I disagree.Was it the primary motive and catalyst in the seige?No,it was not.But the fanatacism of the family certainly played a significant role in the circumstances and outcome.
Also--whoever said (cannot recall atm) that Waco was more of a tragedy than this because innocent children were killed,I disagree with that,as well.Children were put in harm's way in this incident and 2 of them lost their lives,one a babe in his mother's arms.
Regarding the Jim Jones fiasco--it has come out and there are various documentaries on it--that depict more realistically and truthfully what happened there.Drinking the Kool-Aid was not really an act of suicide so much (if at ALL) than imbibing it at gunpoint,being forcefull injected or just outright SHOT.I also agree with whoever dfended the congressman that went out there to see what was what--he seemed a decent guy and he was pretty much 'ambushed' and walked into a snake pit and by then it was,too late.I also believe the journalist with him was shot and killed,but I could be wrong.No one in the the US nor anyone else had any idea what had happened until way after the fact when it was too late and all over.

I watched that unfold live on TV up here in Canada that was crazy : Those " Wacko's from Waco "...... They attacked David Koresh and his harem of " branch davidians " .. . the first day was a big shootout and then a standoff for days and days it went on ..You would turn your cnn news channel on and there would be picture in picture of the story 24/7. Finally the ATF trucked in some heavy equipment and layed seige to the complex it looked to me like they stuck a giant battering ram pole through a window .. It was attached to a tracked army vehicle and then woosh ! the place was an inferno .... It sure looked like the fire was started by the incendiary /battering ram that they stuck in through the window to me.... A lot of women and children gave up the ghost in that fire ! It was the start of sattelite uplink " live on air " news stories .. the beginnings of the mind manipulations by mainstream media ..one of the stories they use to keep the masses distracted from whats really going on

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Now.... I'll eat my hat if you can show me video or ANY solid evidence of ANY kind showing someone outside the compound firing ANY weapon with a correlation to a human being being hit and going down...or even showing signs of being HIT on that final day. I'll even video it. IT NEVER HAPPENED. (Evidence means just that. Not someone "saying" whatever. Words are worthless and every side on this has truckloads. EVIDENCE.) Thank You.

Three sides to every story friend, stop acting as if you have the only definitive answers... hope your hat isn't too large;

Bottom line is which 'evidence' are you or any of us willing to believe without blinding one's self with preconceived bias.

THE FLIR PROJECT PART 1


THE FLIR PROJECT PART 2


THE FLIR PROJECT PART 3


THE FLIR PROJECT PART 4




.

The incident at Waco was my wake up call that perhaps my government wasn't the saints that I had been told they were my whole life. It was mentioned before, but the movie Waco: Rules of Engagment really opened my eyes.

I would like to add some of the damning fact that impicate the feds if I may. (note, there are many more good points to be had, these are just the top points I have that seemed to be agreed upon even by the government side.

1. Initial siege. People inside the compund called 911 to try to get a cease fire. 911 couldn't get ahold of the ATF. However, the ATF had managed to bring along local news cruise and set up a "publicity package" for the event. Coincedentally, ATF budget was soon to be up for review. Conclusion (reached by many Senators at the Waco Hearings. ATF was more interested in publicity than getting the job done right.

2. Koresh stated in phone calls that the front door would show bullet holes going in, a lawyer brought in to talk to Koresh said he saw this. It is illegal for federal agents to shoot through nonvisible objects, because, as in this incident, they could shoot innocents like children. Yet the door mysteriously vanished before the hearings, despite there being video of the door being collected into evidence.

3. Despite the claims that noble US FBI men would never kill innocents, there is ample footage that shows these men acting like constant tough guys, claiming they are going to kill Koresh. They also tongue in cheek played the song "These Boots are Made for Walking" every night as a reference to the fact they would well.. to not swear and put it lamely, whoop up on Koresh. (This was addition to playing audio of rabbits being skinned alive to deprive the residents of sleep.)

More to come in next post.