Socialist legend Tony Benn goes in on Thatcher and big government

reply to post by JailTales


Castro, and other socialists/Marxist/communists talked against "big government" by capitalists.

Just because a person talks against something it doesn't mean he/she really believes that.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by mee30

 

But the wealth, resources and media are all in the hands of a few. These people are not about to give any of this uo or share the opportunity in gaining access to this wealth and these resources. Obviously we cant use violence to get the opportunity to play on the same field as the current ruling class. So a transition to a Libertarian model would only give more power to the ruling elite. It would not readress any balance.

I'm trying to look at this from a real life perspective, with the way things are today. Your proposing an ideology that is just as unrealistic in the current climate as socialism in it's true sense.

Transition will not be overnight for any system though... The ONLY way you could share out the wealth is to use violence! I'm not into that personally... Let them keep what they have. I don't want anything to do with them. If everyone acted like that what would their money mean? I'm just turning my back on the whole system and bringing my children up with the truth...

I am most certainly looking at it from a real life perspective... Trying to fix the system we have now will not work! It is a futile project! As you say they are not going to give up the power they have. So just stop letting it be a power over you! Forget about them. See them as nothing and the will be nothing... Trying to pander to them and convince them to change their ways will only give them more power...

You are not giving libertarianism a chance, you are just blowing it off... And in favour for what exactly? The same old thing that has been tried for centuries? Isn't that the definition of insanity? I mean who would be against libertarianism anyway? Liberty just means freedom right? So you are against freedom?

Originally posted by ANOK

Well in America they have things a little twisted. Socialism is big government and capitalism is small government. It's all lies...

Big business is PRO-SOCIALIST...which is why corporate America funded the Bolshevik revolution...

Wall Street funded Communists

Professor Sutton stated, "Western textbooks on Soviet economic development omit any description of the economic and financial aid given to the 1917 Revolution and subsequent economic development by Western Firms and banks." "In the Bolshevik Revolution we have some of the world's richest and most powerful men financing a movement which claims its very existence is based on the concept of stripping of their wealth," declared Allen. "(M)en like the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Schiffs, Warburgs, Morgans, Harrimans, and Milners."

Perloff agreed, "Jacob Schiff, the head of Kuhn, Loeb and Co., heavily bankrolled the (Communist) revolution. This was reported by White Russian General Arsine de Goulevitch in his book Czarism and the Revolution." "According to his grandson John," described Allen, "Jacob Schiff ... long-time associate of the Rothschilds, financed the Communist Revolution in Russia to the tune of $20 million." He continued, "According to a report on file with the State Department, his firm, Kuhn Loeb and Co. bankrolled the first five year plan for Stalin," and added, "Schiff's descendents are active in the Council on Foreign Relations today."

Referring to the emergence of a communist dictatorship which resulted from the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, Professor Marrs wrote that they were funded by "Germany and America. ... Their repugnant campaign to purify and cleanse Mother Russia and to seek world domination resulted in ... (millions of) human beings wiped out and brutally purged..." He attested, "Brown Brothers Harriman" helped finance it with "money made possible by it and the affiliated Guaranty Trust Company." Professor Sutton agreed, writing "W. Averell Harriman was a director of Guaranty Trust Company" and "was involved in the Bolshevik Revolution."

On February 3, 1949, the New York Journal-American stated, "Today it is estimated even by Jacob's grandson, John Schiff, a prominent member of New York Society, that the old man sank about $20,000,000 for the final triumph of Bolshevism in Russia. Other New York banking firms also contributed."

Referring to a June 15, 1933, Congressional Record, Allen wrote "Congressman Louis McFadden, chairman of the House Banking Committee, maintained in a speech to his fellow Congressman: "The Soviet government has been given United States Treasure funds by the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks acting through the Chase Bank and the Guaranty Trust Company and other banks in New York City. ... Open up the books of Amtorg, the trading organization of the Soviet government in New York, and of Gostorg, the general office of the Soviet Trade Organization, and of the State Bank of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and you will be staggered to see how much American money has been taken from the United States' Treasury for the benefit of Russia."
...

www.thehiddenevil.com...

BTW, when Prof. Sutton talks about "Germany" also funding the Bolshevik revolution he is talking about "CORPORATE" Germany, big business. Hitler, as a SOCIALIST, took control of EVERY BIG BUSINESS, DEMANDING for the owners to manufacture only what he wanted "for the good of all of Germany", which was against what the owners of BIG BUSINESS wanted, hence they funded Hitler's enemies, which included communists.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The Federal Reserve Act/bank was implemented by LEFTISTS in 1913, what were called "PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS" under a "PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT " President, Woodrow Wilson. These same people also funded the IRS, as it exists now with it's PROGRESSIVE taxes. Both of these actions are necessary for a socialist nation to exist.

The Republic of the United States ceased to exist since 1913, and it started transforming into socialism, when LEFTISTS gave all power over the economy to the world SOCIALIST/FASCIST banker elites...

Don't believe liars like ANOK, people like him have gone so far as to TRY, and in some cases succeded in re-writting hist

Originally posted by ANOK
The myth is widespread and deeply rooted that big business and big government are rivals—that big business wants small government.

The REAL myth is that "big businesses/corporations are against big government"... In fact bigbusiness/corporations thrive ONLY under socialist based nations.

Originally posted by ANOK
For a political party to be socialist it must be a revolutionary government working towards worker ownership. The labour party supports capitalism with a social safety net.

Labour has called for "more responsible and better capitalism" and policies to tackle excessive executive pay.

See?...more lies from the "new socialists/communists"...

so·cial·ism
noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\


Definition of SOCIALISM

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods


2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state


3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
...

www.merriam-webster.com...

reply to post by ANOK

No socialism does not need central government. Socialism is worker ownership, workers organizing and running industry themselves. It can be completely libertarian (anarchism). The wealth is shared because all people able to work will be able to work. There would be no unemployment. There would be no capitalists keeping the means of production out of peoples hands. Capitalism does not dictate where things go. Capitalism is simply private ownership of the means to produce. A monopoly on production. The capitalists dictate what is produced, to maintain scarcity, and manipulate the market to their benefit. How would we know what people want? Why do 'we' need to know that? We don't know that now, desire is created artificially. The only things we know we need are food and shelter, and a lot of the world doesn't have that due to capitalism and the monopoly over production.

Look to be honest what you say doesn't make any sense! Capitalism doesn't stop people producing anything! GOVERNMENT does! Capitalism encourages people to produce things! If people like blue cars then blue cars will be produced because that is the demand! The free market will supply whatever it is that is wanted!

If you want to start a new business though the GOVERNMENT demands that you do a whole bunch of things like obtain insurance pay a certain wage pay a certain tax yada yada... This has nothing to do with capitalism!

Yes socialism NEEDS a government else how the hell would you enforce anything? How would you stop someone owning their god damn business? But within a free market system (we do not have and have never had a free market) there is nothing stopping you and a bunch of your pals joining together to make a co-operative! Is there? You could have a socialistic business in a capitalistic system!

But even within a co-operative you would surely have RULES! What if someone was not turning up etc! You would not pay them! This is capitalism!

Yes it is capitalism. Capitalism is simply the 'private ownership of the means of production'. It is a left-wing term appropriated by capitalists who added the 'free-market' lie to it. Anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron. Capitalism is an authoritative system, it can not be anarchist in the true sense. Even if they were no government, the capitalists would still have authority over the workers. Anarchism is not just no government, it is a political system that offers an alternative to capitalism. Anarchism is and has always been a form of socialism.

It seems you have little idea as to what is going on in the world! Capitalism is not authoritative! But yes if you do not work you will be fired! But it is a fair exchange! It would be the same in a socialistic system! And also you would have the problem of too many chiefs not enough indians! People all want different things! There would be a lot of in fighting as to what should be produced! How would you deal with that? Democracy? HA, So the mob would be the authority!

I don't mean to be nasty but you are in fairy land with your socialist ideas...

Socialist society would not be based on making profit, it is a needs based system. What keeps us in bondage and poverty is the capitalist need to make profit. If the workers own the means of production then the workers would decide what their community needs, not a private owner who has no vested interest in the community. In a worker owned economy we wouldn't send jobs overseas to cheaper labour markets, we would use the machinery to produce what we need. It is a community based system, each community would decide what their needs are.

Oh dear! Honestly I'm just left scratching my head! EVERYONE has DIFFERENT needs! It is more fairyland non-sense I'm sorry... I private owner in a free market would have an interest in the community because if he didn't supply what people want he would be out of damn business! In the system we have now because of GOVERNMENT they get a bail out!

Capitalism is a centralized system, the means to produce are owned and controlled by a minority class for their own benefit, not for the collective benefit of the community. Production should be for the benefit of the community, not for private bank accounts.

Oh my god! No it is not! Right now it is because of GOVERNMENT! But take them out of the equation, why would capitalism not work?

My head just hurts with what you are saying because you couldn't be more wrong!

reply to post by ANOK

Capitalism makes a lot of money that the community that works get no benefit from. Capitalist profit increase while workers wages stagnate or reduce. Capitalists send your jobs overseas, again denying you and your community needed resources.

You are using something that is produced due to capitalism! You focus only on the bad, but at the end of the day something would not be produced if people didn't want it! You sir are against freedom! You want to control what people can and can't buy! It's just crazy!

What would you do if you were in a socialist system and realized the majority WANTED a load of crap goods? That is what would happen because people like that stuff hence why it bloody sells! Jesus! Stop being such a control freak! You have benefited much from capitalism!

Capitalism wastes resources by producing crap we don't need, because some idiot somewhere with more money than sense wants it.

See YOU want to control "resources"! If people didn't want the stuff it wouldn't be bought and therefore wouldn't be made! Who on earth would decide what we NEED then? You? LOL... The majority WANTS all the stuff you say we do not need! Why on earth does it sell if they didn't? My word!

The capitalist system was set up simply for land owners to exploit the commoners.

NOPE, GOVERNMENT was set up for that sir! Capitalism is totally VOLUNTARY! Do you have to buy an i phone? Do you have to buy a new TV? Are you forced to buy anything at all? NOPE! VOLUNTARY! THIS = FREEDOM!

There is nothing wrong with capitalism! The problem is GOVERNMENT!

Originally posted by ANOK
...
Capitalism is a centralized system, the means to produce are owned and controlled by a minority class for their own benefit, not for the collective benefit of the community. Production should be for the benefit of the community, not for private bank accounts.
...

WOW, ANOK does like to lie through his teeth...

CENTRALIZATION is part of SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM, not of CAPITALISM...

Although Marx advocated the use of any means, especially including violent revolution, to bring about socialist dictatorship, he suggested ten political goals for developed countries such as the United States. How far has the United States -- traditionally the bastion of freedom, free markets, and private property -- gone down the Marxist road to fulfill these socialist aims? You be the judge. The following are Marx's ten planks from his Communist Manifesto.

1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.

The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Managementproperty taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.


5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.


6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.

In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industiral complex.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions,
...

laissez-fairerepublic.com...

CENTRALIZATION is consolidation of all power, which occurs under SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM...

Again, don't believe LIARS like ANOK...

reply to post by ANOK

ou were born in 81 so you missed the change from nationalisation to privatisation so you really have no way to compare. I left school in 80, and lived through it mate.

Again you have no clue! How do you think I got to school? I used the damn trains everyday! BTW my initials are BR, when I was at school people used to make fun of me and call me British Rail because I was always late! This is nowhere near the same problem today!

You can get cheap fairs if you book in advance! I could also pull up a string of crashes when the thing was nationalized! Any way I remember very well when bristish rail was privatized! I had a huge interest in it as it was something I used all the time! The NHS is also very expensive BTW! And it is very CRAP! Long waiting lists and sub par service! Why? Because the already have your money! They do not need to work hard for it!

Anyway in a free market society you could buy a cheap diesel and be on your way on chip fat with no government intervention! No license etc... So if you didn't like the train price do not pay! Simple!

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Thank God someone else can see sense! I though I was all alone here! lol

Thanks for the links etc... He will not listen to any of that though... I feel I am wasting my breath but hey you have to try right?

Any way thanks again.

reply to post by mee30


You need to look into how much the railway is subsidised now compared to when it was nationalised !!!

During a Today Programme debate on Thursday on rail reform, transport expert Christian Wolmar claimed that the current system is subsidised to the tune of £4 billion – roughly four times greater than the comparable cost under British Rail

Source

reply to post by ken10


I agree and this is a problem with GOVERNMENT not capitalism! Under free market capitalism the companies not doing well would be allowed to fail and others would take over! This is the whole problem of bail out etc... The GOVERNMENT steals money of people to keep things a float...

Besides you can not escape the fact that the british rail service was crap! And it was in a poor state of affairs!

Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by ken10

 

I agree and this is a problem with GOVERNMENT not capitalism! Under free market capitalism the companies not doing well would be allowed to fail and others would take over! This is the whole problem of bail out etc... The GOVERNMENT steals money of people to keep things a float...

Besides you can not escape the fact that the british rail service was crap! And it was in a poor state of affairs!

But isn't that just a failure to curb incompetence.......Or was it done on purpose to lead to privatisation ?

reply to post by ken10

But isn't that just a failure to curb incompetence.......Or was it done on purpose to lead to privatisation ?

Well I would say it is a bit of both to be honest... But again this is all due to GOVERNMENT! I do not want government at all! I want rid of the whole system! We can not give one group of people the monopoly of the use of force! This is the root of all the problems.

Anyone who is advocating privatisation in Britain is pretty much insane. Yes, perhaps it all turns out OK in the end elsewhere, but privatisation is just a smash and grab here. We're sold the idea of competition being good for us but, again, over here, it's just ends-up in cartels and monopolies. I'm not bothered about any ideas as to how capitalism/privatisation/corporatism shouldwork, I have to pay bills and rent in an economic context of how privatisation has turned out in practice not theory.

Privatised railways are a joke: the taxpayer subsidises private firms (who generate fairly substantial profits) more now the railway is 'private' than when they were a nationalised industry. We've sold off our utilities to foreign firms and our ever-increasing bills help subsidise bill payers in other countries! Utilities like water and electric aren't consumer luxuries, they're a necessity without which people can't live. They shouldn't ever be owned by private firms.

The coalition government (and Tories, generally) like to spin the narrative that private is good, value and efficient whilst the public sector is wasteful and bad. Inevitably, stories like the NHS being charged £27 (or whatever) for lightbulbs are always proffered as examples of that waste and inefficiency. These narratives always skirt around the fact that it's private firms working with the NHS that are ripping off the NHS and the taxpayer. In fact, this goes for practically every "NuLieBore = socialismisticisms gorn mad!!!!1" story since 1997.

The NHS (all those 'horror hospital' stories have happened in semi-privatised 'NHS Trusts'). The #ty 'couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery' prison, immigration and security stories. The 'wrong kind of snow, leaves, sun' and ticket prices scandals. The ridiculous mismanagement and waste of water in one of the wettest countries in the Northern Hemisphere. All this relates to privatisation.

Yeah, I appreciate any "but capitalism is not meant to be like this" arguments, but the fact is that's how it isin Britain and any "not meant to be like this..." argument is equally applicable to socialism, communism or anything else, for that matter.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I do understand all that but the system we have now is not working! They are not stealing enough off people to be able to pay for all the FREE stuff! That is why we have a "national debt" and a "deficit"... What do you advocate? They steal even more money off people?

Of course we need to talk about how it SHOULD be! Because things NEED to change! And that will not happen until we start talking and organizing!

For instance did you know you can drill into the ground pretty much anywhere in the UK and get water for free? So if you are not happy with the water company get your own! You could also get a cess pit to deal with waste water etc... Not happy with the electricity prices? Cut down on your uses and turn to alternative power sources like solar etc...

We need to do this and yes it isn't cheap and it will take time! But just looking at things through the system we have now will get us nowhere! We need to start thinking outside the box! If not for our sakes for our children! We need to start bringing them up differently!

Basically I see your mentality as very short sighted and it's only going to keep those in power where they are! We need to start taking care of ourselves and stop relying on government to do it all for us! We need to turn our backs on them!

Oh and the thing with the NHS is not JUST expensive light bulbs! We have the most expensive medicine in europe too! But you blame it on businesses dealing with and ripping off the NHS! NO NO NO... Do you think they FORCE the buyers within the NHS to deal with them? LOL

EDIT: Check this out... It is just an example of what we can do! water

Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

I do understand all that but the system we have now is not working!

Yes, it doesn't work as I've explained. Everyone knows it doesn't work. However, the beneficiaries of it not working (very large private firms) aren't finished milking us yet. In the mean time, just enjoy your 'it was the public sector wot dun it!!!!1' narrative.

They are not stealing enough off people to be able to pay for all the FREE stuff! That is why we have a "national debt" and a "deficit"... What do you advocate? They steal even more money off people?

What "FREE" stuff? The vast majority of people who claim housing benefit (FREE stuff) are in work. Most people who claim or will pensions &c have paid for it &c.

Of course we need to talk about how it SHOULD be! Because things NEED to change! And that will not happen until we start talking and organizing! For instance did you know you can drill into the ground pretty much anywhere in the UK and get water for free?

I think you need to read some stuff on 'the privatisation of public space' and who owns the vast majority of land in Britain. You can harvest rainwater as it falls (something some Americans can't do, thanks to privatisation) but you're being a little misleading as it's not as simple as you appear to be claiming. Not everyone can dig wells, grow their own food &c.

So if you are not happy with the water company get your own! You could also get a cess pit to deal with waste water etc... Not happy with the electricity prices? Cut down on your uses and turn to alternative power sauces like solar etc...

Digging cess pits? Lucky enough to own your own home/land are you? "Cut down on your uses?" Are familiar with the concept of fuel poverty? There's a lot of people in Britain who can't cut back any further. Buy into solar power &c? You might have noticed that the government have fallen out with solar and the majority of people can't really afford to pay for all this up-front. You might have noticed that banks that have enjoyed quantitative easing aren't really interested in passing that taxpayer money any further than their own pockets.

We need to do this and yes it isn't cheap and it will take time!

For a lot of people, your "isn't cheap" translates as 'will be unaffordable in their lifetimes'.

But just looking at things through the system we have now will get us nowhere! We need to start thinking outside the box! If not for our sakes for our children! We need to start bringing them up differently!

Yeah, let's think differently! Let's get rid of the right wing politics that's ruined this country for the last 30 years, the Thatcherism, the neo-liberalism, the race to the bottom, the moves to remove worker's rights &c. Let's nationalise water, railways, electricity, gas. Let's write-off PFI contracts and seek prosecutions against some of the private businesses involved. Let's think of the children who will never have homes! Who will have to share homes until they're in their 30s! Let's think of the people who are being denied proper jobs and proper wages! Let's get rid of this world where part-time temporary shelf-stacking is the new apprenticeship and education. Where working for free is the new norm!

Or is that not the change your looking for? Is "different" only acceptable if it's yourdifferent?

Basically I see your mentality as very short sighted and it's only going to keep those in power where they are! We need to start taking care of ourselves and stop relying on government to do it all for us! We need to turn our backs on them!

Ah, the kind of short-sighted than really means "I don't agree with you"? How do you know I'm short sighted? It's a #ing weird accusation to make considering my previous post was pointing out the failings of PFI rather than actually advocating or offering anything. So what's that accusation actually based on?

Oh and the thing with the NHS is not JUST expensive light bulbs! We have the most expensive medicine in europe too! But you blame it on businesses dealing with and ripping off the NHS! NO NO NO... Do you think they FORCE the buyers within the NHS to deal with them? LOL

Who is selling that most expensive medicine in Europe? You? Me? Or another private firm ripping off the NHS? Do you know how NHS procurement works? How lobbying works? How politicians creating reforms (on both sides of the house, New Labour were at it, too) do deals with private companies and then inevitably end-up working for the private companies?

It's funny how in some ideologies private business is always going to be innocent of everything.

edit on 29-7-2012 by Merriman Weir because: not multi-quoted in a couple of years

Yes, it doesn't work as I've explained. Everyone knows it doesn't work. However, the beneficiaries of it not working (very large private firms) aren't finished milking us yet. In the mean time, just enjoy your 'it was the public sector wot dun it!!!!1' narrative.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I didn't see you explain it to be honest I just saw you saying that it works that way so we got to deal with it, or stick at it...

When have I said it is the public sector? I said it is the government! Yes they go hand in hand, but that is our own collective fault... I'm guessing you work within it! lol

What "FREE" stuff? The vast majority of people who claim housing benefit (FREE stuff) are in work. Most people who claim or will pensions &c have paid for it &c.

I was actually referring to things like police and education and health care etc... I'm betting the tax you pay doesn't cover half of the free stuff you receive... Hence why we run at a deficit... Hence why we are a trillion+ in debt!

I think you need to read some stuff on 'the privatisation of public space' and who owns the vast majority of land in Britain. You can harvest rainwater as it falls (something some Americans can't do, thanks to privatisation) but you're being a little misleading as it's not as simple as you appear to be claiming. Not everyone can dig wells, grow their own food &c.

You can harvest rainwater but it isn't so good if you live in a city! As it comes down it passes through the smog! I wouldn't advice drinking that... Oh private comapanies have banned people in america harvesting rain water? BAHAHAHAHA... No pal, the government does that! Not everyone can dig wells but the vast majority can! And as I said it is an EXAMPLE!

Digging cess pits? Lucky enough to own your own home/land are you? "Cut down on your uses?" Are familiar with the concept of fuel poverty? There's a lot of people in Britain who can't cut back any further. Buy into solar power &c? You might have noticed that the government have fallen out with solar and the majority of people can't really afford to pay for all this up-front. You might have noticed that banks that have enjoyed quantitative easing aren't really interested in passing that taxpayer money any further than their own pockets.

Nope, but again they are examples! Things we should be working TOWARDS! I'm sorry but I do not see people in such a fuel poverty, most have washing machines etc... Did I say it will be easy? DId I say it will be cheap? But yes we need to move towards these things!

Quantitative easing? GOVERNMENT problem! I agree with you here! Get rid of government and problem solved! But you just want to stick with it! lol

For a lot of people, your "isn't cheap" translates as 'will be unaffordable in their lifetimes'.

Lifetimes? Oh come on now don't be so dramatic! What is the alternative? Keep watching prices skyrocket? lol

Yeah, let's think differently! Let's get rid of the right wing politics that's ruined this country for the last 30 years, the Thatcherism, the neo-liberalism, the race to the bottom, the moves to remove worker's rights &c. Let's nationalise water, railways, electricity, gas. Let's write-off PFI contracts and seek prosecutions against some of the private businesses involved. Let's think of the children who will never have homes! Who will have to share homes until they're in their 30s! Let's think of the people who are being denied proper jobs and proper wages! Let's get rid of this world where part-time temporary shelf-stacking is the new apprenticeship and education. Where working for free is the new norm! Or is that not the change your looking for? Is "different" only acceptable if it's yourdifferent?

Oh I see, you want government to fix government! lol... The government are in bed with the god damn businesses you despise! That is my point! Without government they will be allowed to fail!

No what you propose has been tried every 4 years since democracy began! It will not work! I don't mind any system people want to be part of, even the one we have now! What I want is the freedom to CHOOSE! Are you against me having that freedom?

Ah, the kind of short-sighted than really means "I don't agree with you"? How do you know I'm short sighted? It's a #ing weird accusation to make considering my previous post was pointing out the failings of PFI rather than actually advocating or offering anything. So what's that accusation actually based on?

Anyone advocating privatization is pretty much insane?... Yet you come to me talking about me tolerating other peoples opinions? lol...

You were talking about dealing with what we have now! What we have now is a corrupt mess!

Who is selling that most expensive medicine in Europe? You? Me? Or another private firm ripping off the NHS? Do you know how NHS procurement works? How lobbying works? How politicians creating reforms (on both sides of the house, New Labour were at it, too) do deals with private companies and then inevitably end-up working for the private companies? It's funny how in some ideologies private business is always going to be innocent of everything.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


They can source the damn medicine elsewhere if the were so inclined but they CHOOSE not to... Yes and Yes... Couldn't agree more! Hence why I want rid of government! Yes labour/conservatives etc etc, all the same crap! But what? You think we can fix it? We can get some nice people in that will solve everything? Come on now!

Private companies right now are using the force of government for their own ends! They would be mad not to! Hence why I want rid of government! lol...

Half of what you say is actually backing up my case, so I guess you aren't half bad...

Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by ANOK

 

ou were born in 81 so you missed the change from nationalisation to privatisation so you really have no way to compare. I left school in 80, and lived through it mate.

Again you have no clue! How do you think I got to school? I used the damn trains everyday! BTW my initials are BR, when I was at school people used to make fun of me and call me British Rail because I was always late! This is nowhere near the same problem today!

You can get cheap fairs if you book in advance! I could also pull up a string of crashes when the thing was nationalized! Any way I remember very well when bristish rail was privatized! I had a huge interest in it as it was something I used all the time! The NHS is also very expensive BTW! And it is very CRAP! Long waiting lists and sub par service! Why? Because the already have your money! They do not need to work hard for it!

Anyway in a free market society you could buy a cheap diesel and be on your way on chip fat with no government intervention! No license etc... So if you didn't like the train price do not pay! Simple!

Actually you cant get meaningfully cheaper fares at all.

In most cases its cheaper to fly to a distant destination within the British Isles than it is to get the train. I live in england and travel home periodically to scotland. Its never in 10 years been cheaper to spend 8 hours on the train versus about 3.5 flying.

It doesn't take a genius to work out something is wrong with that.

Actually you cant get meaningfully cheaper fares at all. In most cases its cheaper to fly to a distant destination within the British Isles than it is to get the train. I live in england and travel home periodically to scotland. Its never in 10 years been cheaper to spend 8 hours on the train versus about 3.5 flying. It doesn't take a genius to work out something is wrong with that.

reply to post by justwokeup


Listen I'm not defending the rail companies here at all, I couldn't really give a damn about them. But british rail was a joke too! And I'm in no doubt that if they were still in control things would be just as expensive as they are now... Prices were always going up when they were...

One thing I can say is do the airlines need to maintain miles upon miles of track? Did they have to fix or upgrade miles and miles of track? If you like I can show you articles about what was spent on the rail lines? Wasn't that one of the reasons private companies took over in the first place?

But yes if you are doing distance like that go by air... This is good isn't it? This is capitalism... If there is a need it will be filled... Great to have choice isn't it? Though I would say some people are scared of flying etc, so the choice of the train is a good thing for them... You can also go to certain destinations really cheap via coach... I could get from birmingham to london and back for about 8 quid with their fun fares... I don't much like coaches though, I'm 6' 4" and I find the seats a bit of a squeeze, plus it is slower... Not sure if they do flights for that distance or what the price would be.

I do kinda like going on the trains though, sit back with a beer etc... Yes, they are somewhat pricey, no doubt... But what will happen? Eventually they'll take the piss too much and then no-one will travel on them! Then the prices will come back down... Problem is at the moment people are still paying so...