You have to bugout. (Another gun thread, haters ignore!)

To sort of go with the current gun theme of ATS, I have the following question.

While I know that for many of us, bugging IN is the best option (it is for me). Let’s say that for whatever reason, that is no longer an option and you are forced to bug out. Your bugout bag weighs 50 pounds, and you have your handgun of choice on your hip. You are bugging out alone with a small child and dog. (Just trying to give you a picture of the circumstances, to better help you make a decision).

You own two rifles: a .223 rifle weighing 5.7 pounds and a .22 rifle weighing 4.3 pounds. Let’s say both are equipped with scopes, and the .22 has an extended magazine to make it at least sort of comparable to the ammo capacity of the .223. You are proficient with both.

You can only bring one, so which rifle would you choose to bring in a bug out situation and why?

I would have the dog or child carry the other one!

ya better start working out!!!
i carry 50 - 75 lbs worth of food in my backpack,on a bicycle every time i go shopping!!!
i dont drive a car.
what ya gonna do if your child or your dog gets hurt? you gotta carry them!
your worried about a 5 lb. gun? all the ammo you think you will need will weigh more than that!
sounds like a lazy persons scenario!!!
people that can't adapt,or deal with this scenario will perish!!!!
buck up!!!!

Simple question to answer. The 22 is the obvious choice the 22 is a far more common round than the 223 so you will be able to find ammo for it easier than the 223.

If you have alot of squirrels and other small game like rabbits and gophers in your area, go with the .22 high velocity rounds and make head shots if you can. You will be able to carry alot more ammo and buy a whole lot more. .223 would be okay for some medium sized game like javelina and great for personal defense. I would personally go with the .22 because alot of small game is better than one medium sized game animal because you also have to store the extra meat somehow. The gun in my hip would be whichever I have the most ammo for which is currently my Sig Tac-Ops P226 in .40.

Originally posted by MojaveBurning

You can only bring one, so which rifle would you choose to bring in a bug out situation and why?

if I had a choice I can watch you as you come my way and study your behavior. I would carry it on my back like swords along with
I NEVER LIKED PULLING SWORDS.

Originally posted by reficul
ya better start working out!!!
i carry 50 - 75 lbs worth of food in my backpack,on a bicycle every time i go shopping!!!
i dont drive a car.
what ya gonna do if your child or your dog gets hurt? you gotta carry them!
your worried about a 5 lb. gun? all the ammo you think you will need will weigh more than that!
sounds like a lazy persons scenario!!!
people that can't adapt,or deal with this scenario will perish!!!!
buck up!!!!

kudos to you. ("Ahhnold?" Izzat you?)
Not everybody is young, strong, or healthy. Nor will you be on a severely calorie reduced diet or after an injury. In the end ; Not every event is "survivable".

The backpack survivalist idea was pretty well debated throughout the 80's/90's and found to be a poor long term "solution". A refugee can't carry "everything for every contingency". Fur trade era trappers had horse(s)and built cabins but still had to return to civilization regularly for staples.

Originally posted by reficul
ya better start working out!!!
i carry 50 - 75 lbs worth of food in my backpack,on a bicycle every time i go shopping!!!
i dont drive a car.
what ya gonna do if your child or your dog gets hurt? you gotta carry them!
your worried about a 5 lb. gun? all the ammo you think you will need will weigh more than that!
sounds like a lazy persons scenario!!!
people that can't adapt,or deal with this scenario will perish!!!!
buck up!!!!

Good point!!

I don't own a car either and the closest bus stop is about a half mile from where I live.
So every day I go to work or to the store I walk at least one mile and that's in Phoenix.

I usually wear a backpack that weighs 20-25 lbs. Some days I have additional bags of groceries or whatever.
Yeah it gets rough guys.

I think you should take your gear and try walking with it for a mile or so. It's a good test and it'll give you a better idea of what you "need" and what you "want".

Originally posted by reficul
ya better start working out!!!
i carry 50 - 75 lbs worth of food in my backpack,on a bicycle every time i go shopping!!!
i dont drive a car.
what ya gonna do if your child or your dog gets hurt? you gotta carry them!
your worried about a 5 lb. gun? all the ammo you think you will need will weigh more than that!
sounds like a lazy persons scenario!!!
people that can't adapt,or deal with this scenario will perish!!!!
buck up!!!!

Jeez. I feel like why is it so dang hard to just answer the question? I didn't ask anyone to analyze the hypothetical scenario. You call it lazy, but did you stop to think that there is a reason it was laid out the way it was? Some of us are minimalists. For you, it might be important for you to be able to carry 75 pounds worth of crap. For me, ease of mobility is more important. I refuse to be one of those douchebags trudging down the highway with five rolling suitcases and child's wagon. I should have simplified: "Which rifle is most versatile?" Does that suit you better?

Originally posted by 1MrMarc
If you have alot of squirrels and other small game like rabbits and gophers in your area, go with the .22 high velocity rounds and make head shots if you can. You will be able to carry alot more ammo and buy a whole lot more. .223 would be okay for some medium sized game like javelina and great for personal defense. I would personally go with the .22 because alot of small game is better than one medium sized game animal because you also have to store the extra meat somehow. The gun in my hip would be whichever I have the most ammo for which is currently my Sig Tac-Ops P226 in .40.

edit on 7/27/1212 by 1MrMarc because: forgot a gun.

Thank you. This is exactly the sort of thought out response that I was hoping for. Small game does tend to be more plentiful in most areas. Starred.

Originally posted by 1MrMarc
If you have alot of squirrels and other small game like rabbits and gophers in your area, go with the .22 high velocity rounds and make head shots if you can. You will be able to carry alot more ammo and buy a whole lot more. .223 would be okay for some medium sized game like javelina and great for personal defense. I would personally go with the .22 because alot of small game is better than one medium sized game animal because you also have to store the extra meat somehow. The gun in my hip would be whichever I have the most ammo for which is currently my Sig Tac-Ops P226 in .40.

edit on 7/27/1212 by 1MrMarc because: forgot a gun.

You can take down a deer with a 22 with a well placed shot. Smoking meat for storage is relatively easy once you learn how to do it.

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by 1MrMarc
If you have alot of squirrels and other small game like rabbits and gophers in your area, go with the .22 high velocity rounds and make head shots if you can. You will be able to carry alot more ammo and buy a whole lot more. .223 would be okay for some medium sized game like javelina and great for personal defense. I would personally go with the .22 because alot of small game is better than one medium sized game animal because you also have to store the extra meat somehow. The gun in my hip would be whichever I have the most ammo for which is currently my Sig Tac-Ops P226 in .40.

edit on 7/27/1212 by 1MrMarc because: forgot a gun.

You can take down a deer with a 22 with a well placed shot. Smoking meat for storage is relatively easy once you learn how to do it.

I know nothing about deer (or any) hunting, is it safe to assume you are referring to a head or heart shot?

reply to post by buster2010

I would hate to track a deer after shooting it with a .22. The blood trail would suck and plus there is a kid to look out for unless your dog is like Lassie. Plus rabbits and squirrels are common in more areas not far from civilization and often right in the middle of it.

.22lr/.223:
How many fights have you been in your life?(include all school yard altercations")
How many times in your life have you eaten?
Credit for that analysis goes to Jack Spirko of the"survival podcast". Thanks Jack!

Any area with "refugees"(people "bugging out" are just that "homeless refugees";the .Gov will be itching to build camps to "help"... ) trudging through them; will become bereft of animals quickly.

What is not hunted out will quickly scatter so "hunting" is a calorie intensive:low chance of success activity anyway.

Accepting that; Given that if you happen to get a shot at an animal for the pot. It will most likely be small and moving fast. Small game reproduces more rapidly. Hides more easily and requires less browse to survive. The .22lr rules here.

A case can be made for the 12gauge and .410 bore shotgun also: ( higher hit probability; the opportunity to take birds inflight;the shotshell can be reloaded with blackpowder in the field with the addition of a few tools.) Dave Canterbury is a huge advocate of the single shot 12 ga.Black powder doesn't require the "tenth of a grain" measurements modern smokeless powder does( close enough is close enough).

There is a popular story of the .22lr killing an African elephant.Plus you can carry a significant amount of ammunition. Not the best choice for defense but I would not stand in front of one. Israelis issued a tricked out10/22 for riot/crowd suppression but withdrew them because they were treated as mere "toys" and proved overly lethal when used carelessly . It's a "lethal" penetrating round but for "defense" your adversary may take a few minutes/hours /days to expire and that is unacceptable...

There is certainly a place in everyone's battery for the.22lr. The ideal combination for a "what can you pickup and carry" scenario may either be: a .22 handgun matched with a center fire rifle. OR a .22 rifle ( best performance/shot placement/less noise from the longer barrel) matched with a center fire handgun for close up fast and dirty in your face defense.
A Topic which could be debated all day which I don't have...

Originally posted by 1MrMarc
reply to post by buster2010

 

I would hate to track a deer after shooting it with a .22. The blood trail would suck and plus there is a kid to look out for unless your dog is like Lassie. Plus rabbits and squirrels are common in more areas not far from civilization and often right in the middle of it.

Put the shot through their eye and they drop like a rock. And the child should be by your side so they can learn what to do.

RE: deer
We have reasonably "large"( debateable ) deer herds up here in Wisconsin along with plenty of multi generation deer hunters. Plenty of years people come home empty handed having everything prepared ahead of time. ( i.e.stands built along likely active runs etc.)

The morning of opening day all activity from hunters in the woods throw the game animals off their regular routines. An influx of refugees will definitely move the animals.out of the area. Survival "hunting" is more energy intensive and far less effective than "survival trapping"of smaller game. My "kit" includes a half dozen store bought Conibear 110's..They'll catch and kill most anything edible.
Granted the above appliesto "legal" hunting.
"Rules" will rapidly go out the window come TSHTF. So depredation through over hunting will quickly become a reality.Post shtf If it walks, swims,crawls or flies some two legged predator will be after it.

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by 1MrMarc
reply to post by buster2010

 

I would hate to track a deer after shooting it with a .22. The blood trail would suck and plus there is a kid to look out for unless your dog is like Lassie. Plus rabbits and squirrels are common in more areas not far from civilization and often right in the middle of it.

Put the shot through their eye and they drop like a rock. And the child should be by your side so they can learn what to do.

Your right about that. But I am picturing hiking through hills and mountains to go after deer. Which would be really frustrating to do with a kid and dog by your side. I'm just going to stuck with the .22 for small game in this scenario. I mean no disrespect, I enjoy reading your posts on ATS.

If you're planning on taking down a deer with a .22 you'd better be a damn fine shot. And I mean never miss on the head of a nail damn fine shot.

I'd be tempted for more, and smaller game, more often.

And learn traps. They work even when you're asleep.

(sorry that bit was o/t)

Originally posted by MojaveBurning

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by 1MrMarc
If you have alot of squirrels and other small game like rabbits and gophers in your area, go with the .22 high velocity rounds and make head shots if you can. You will be able to carry alot more ammo and buy a whole lot more. .223 would be okay for some medium sized game like javelina and great for personal defense. I would personally go with the .22 because alot of small game is better than one medium sized game animal because you also have to store the extra meat somehow. The gun in my hip would be whichever I have the most ammo for which is currently my Sig Tac-Ops P226 in .40.

edit on 7/27/1212 by 1MrMarc because: forgot a gun.

You can take down a deer with a 22 with a well placed shot. Smoking meat for storage is relatively easy once you learn how to do it.

I know nothing about deer (or any) hunting, is it safe to assume you are referring to a head or heart shot?

If you know nothing about deer or hunting, then what is the rifle for, and how do you plan to survive anyway?

The .22 will have a lot lighter ammunition, therefore you can carry a lot more rounds. The .22 is better for killing small game, quieter to give away less of your location, and probably easier to shoot and stay on target. Also, as others have said, the .22 ammo will likely be more abundant to replenish in your travels.

The .223 is going to be for very long range shooting of large game, but if you don't know what to do with a large game anyway, then it doesn't make any sense to carry the larger gun and ammo.

reply to post by MojaveBurning


The .22.

'Nuff said.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

If you know nothing about deer or hunting, then what is the rifle for, and how do you plan to survive anyway?

I imagine that if things were so bad that I had to leave my home and worry about my next meal, I would have to learn to hunt pretty fast. Goes back to the importance of adaptability. Additionally, it could serve as another measure for self defense if the # has hit the fan. I'd like to reiterate, this is all hypothetical. Better to think of every possible scenario and a plan to adjust as needed to survive, than to not bother thinking about it at all. I thought adding in the scenario would give more variables to consider.

"How do I plan to survive anyway?" Not sure if that's rhetorical sarcasm, or if you actually want an answer. But I'll give you one. My plan is to learn everything I can now, while I can, about every subject I can think of that might some day be useful. If that means asking questions that people think are flawed, then fine, that's what I'll do, because I do not know everything. I will try to look at things from every angle, in order to learn as much as I can. And, I'll adapt. Even if it means carrying a gun and shooting an animal for the first time in my life, if that's what I have to do to survive.