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Could an average handgun have taken out "The Joker"?

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posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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I keep hearing people say "If only someone in that Theatre was armed."

I just remember this 1997 Hollywood Bank Robbery. The bullets bounced right off.



That was fifteen years ago. I am going to assume the body armour has improved.

So with the average gun you could slip in your pocket and take to the movie.

How could you take this maniac down? Wouldn't you have to shoot him in the eye?

This is a serious question. On talk radio these Rambo's say they could take him down.

I don't know much about ammo or body armour. But I'm pretty sure they are dead wrong.

I would like to hear ATS chime in on this....Thanks




posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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I know of two hand guns that can pierce armor.

A SW&500 impractical as a CCW.

And an FN5x7, small almost rifle like cartridge.

Other than that it would take a precision marksmen... There where several servicemen in the crowd, I believe 3 of the dead where so...

perhaps new law for service men to carry their guns off duty...

I would even argue an Amateur firing wildly above the man would of given enough covering fire to get people out safely.
edit on 26-7-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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Can someone confirm just what he was wearing? I hear the media reports and I get the pieces for his suit there. Legs, groin torso throat and arms? I don't recall arms or not. Anyway, one camp seems to say this was actual ballistic rating stuff that protected and a couple people i do respect the opinions of are telling me it was Surplus Store knock off/sporting good store 'rambo' gear but not actually protective?

It would sure be nice to know if anyone has heard more than the vague descriptions? (Sorry if I missed a thread fly by which did answer this)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by whyamIhere
 


When you consider the amount of armor this idiot had on, the chances of someone getting off a kill shot before he turned his automatic on them, is next to zero. He was protected with armor from head to foot, not to mention poor lighting, smoke and the eye irritation caused by the tear gas made him a difficult target. Trying to shoot this guy would make you an easy target before you could even target an area where there was no armor. This guy was ready for an all out gun battle with police.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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Good point. Handguns, particularly at a distance, are not that accurate. The scene had to have been chaotic with people running, tripping over each other, screaming, etc. Tear gas would create smoke and if you get close to it, it will blind you, albeit temporarily. Have you ever been tear gassed? Trust me on this one. I learned my lesson and now respct it completely.

The chances of hitting an innocent bystander would be great. A potential defender would have to take all this into consideration, plus temper his own elevated adrenalin, plus get through the tear gas, and be willing to expose himself as a most important target. Any marksman school will tell you you are half as good in a stressful situation compared to when you are calm and shooting at a target in a protected environment.

Best case scenario would be several focused and well trained individuals taking out the threat in a professional manner. If you happened to have a few armed SEALS in the theater, they probably could do it, but a random citizen with a CCW and not much training would have a very difficult time of it.

So, sadly, an "average handgun" would have had to be very lucky to take this guy out.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by whyamIhere
 


any body with two large marbles and a knife could have done something if......BIG IF, there was an opportunity to flank, which is possible since this guy was probably focused on his targets, that been said if someone had and average hand gun and had the ability and opportunity to flank could have had a point blank shot.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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Really no way to answer this question.

What's an "average" handgun? What's it shooting? 9mm, 9mm+, .357, 40, .45, 5x7mm, something else? What's the range?

Who is the "average" shooter? Do they have any prior military experince and if so as what? Most military and police have been through the gas chamber, so they aren't unfamiliar with tear gas and trying to maintain thought and process with it. How often do they practice? I know several civillian shooters who practice often once a week. There are a variety of pistol courses available, including under stress, at night, while moving....many are "better" than police.

What' kind of "armor" was it? This was partially addressed. Was it real? Depending on the level and the above mentioned bullets the vest might have well been penatrated. Not to mention, TYPICALLY, you still are going to have broken ribs, shock trauma, bruised organs, etc, from being hit while wearing a vest even if there is no penatration.

I'll give the libs this...In that situation it would have been pretty hard for the "average shooter" with an "average handgun" to completely neutralize the threat. But I would still take those odds over not having anything. You unload 10 or 15 in the general direction...some are going to hit and cause at least some level of injury, giving you a better chance to get out.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by SrWingCommander
 


When I said average handgun I meant something you could conceal.

He looked like it would of taken something very large caliber or some type of special ammo.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
perhaps new law for service men to carry their guns off duty...


edit on 26-7-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)


hummmmmmmmm! well you just pass a law to trim The Posse Comitatus Act and yep, there you go. How many people have been killed on military installations in the last year by servicemen?
I think this is a fair question to ask, well here in the land of Creative Writing aka, ATS



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by rebellender
 





hummmmmmmmm! well you just pass a law to trim The Posse Comitatus Act and yep, there you go. How many people have been killed on military installations in the last year by servicemen? I think this is a fair question to ask, well here in the land of Creative Writing aka, ATS


nope, off duty cops can carry their side arm, I would allow all off duty servicemen and women an automatic CCW, no legal authority beyond that.

I am sure this situation would of turned out diffrently than.

OR how bout Vermont's route, no CCW at all for carrying purpose?



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by SrWingCommander
What's an "average" handgun? What's it shooting? 9mm, 9mm+, .357, 40, .45, 5x7mm, something else? What's the range?

Who is the "average" shooter? Do they have any prior military experince and if so as what? Most military and police have been through the gas chamber, so they aren't unfamiliar with tear gas and trying to maintain thought and process with it. How often do they practice? I know several civillian shooters who practice often once a week. There are a variety of pistol courses available, including under stress, at night, while moving....many are "better" than police.


I think the issue was more in the line of who would you expect to be in the audience? A well-trained SEAL or a guy with a CCW who carried for personal protection? Statistically speaking, it would probably be the latter. The caliber of the weapon is not really the issue.

However, I have to take issue with the idea that if you've been in the military you are somehow familiar with tear gas and how to maintain thought. Military training in tear gas is laughable. About all you will learn is how to recognize the smell of it, but they certainly do not gas you so that you are under any kind of stress.

Of course, people come out of the chamber saying, "Oh, my God. That was horrible!" but they have no perspective on the matter. Try running through a cloud of tear gas tossed your way, then you will realize that military tear gas "training" is not in your best interests.

I've been through military tear gas training, and I've been through a cloud of tear gas used to "disperse" the crowd I was in. Believe me, there is a world of difference.


edit on 7/26/2012 by schuyler because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


the burden of all of our Great Nation isnt with its police force or its military force of a military force acting as a police force. Its within the power of the people its self.

Didnt see any serviceman jumping on this fool to stop him yet they died. The power is in the people. Cops found the shooter sitting on his ass. Nobody even tried to stop him? with or without guns. What do you think 300 in the theater? Nobody TRIED to stop him. It doesnt take a gun to stop a gunman, but people who refuse to let it happen. Think about what I am saying
edit on 26-7-2012 by rebellender because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 07:34 PM
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Rely less on guns as time moves forward and start putting some of your time into learning Martial arts.
Please read about Jeet kune do. Learn about situational awareness, timing your striking to vital points, maintaining range etc..

Fighting and violence are evolving and you must adapt if you want to survive.
Outrunning a gun/battle is far more important to your survival then learning how to fight in the battle but don't get me wrong, continue to learn that as well, but don't put as much priority on it.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by rebellender
 





Didnt see any serviceman jumping on this fool to stop him yet they died.


Nope the three that died,Died jumping ontop of their girlfriends, Shielding them with their bare bodies, preventing the bullets from even getting near their respective girlfriends.

I believe all the servicemen I read reports about died covering people...

Imagine if they had had a gun what heroism would of happen.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


look I am all for open carry. why conceal it. it would not stop crime but keep less honest people more honest.

My point is it would be an action of all people not just off duty servicemen, which by your intent of only arming then be a violation of The Posse Comitatus Act.

BTW we could "shoulda coulda woulda all night long and get nowhere
edit on 26-7-2012 by rebellender because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by rebellender
 


Not really, because the ANTI-GUN nuts, would balk at open carry for all law abiding citizen.

My answer would at least have a chance of passing...

An automatic CCW for all service men would not be a violation, it would be an extension of many of the rights granted by military service.

For an example a Service man can walk into a gun shop and get a gun same day, no waiting period where a waiting period would apply.

Simply an extension of that privilege, it would not give them any "law enforcement" ability what so ever, which you seem to think would be the case by giving them an Automatic CCW...
edit on 26-7-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


I dont buy it. It gives some citizens too much power and responsibility. Hey, I am a gulf Vet. The power of our nation is in our population of 300million people, not a few here or a few there



adding, I think you dont understand The Posse Comitatus Act and why it exists.
edit on 26-7-2012 by rebellender because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by rebellender
 


You honestly think theres ever a chance of a federal level open carry law?

Id love to live in that world, but we just had our open carry rights taken away in ca, as it was you couldn't even have ammo on you... so that was neutered already, than they took it away completely.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


do you think there is a chance "The People" will give 21year old Veterans automatic weapons with free will to roam the streets and shoot up any threat they justify needs shot up?

come on, think!

back to 300 in the theater. 300 people didnt try to stop the gunman, 3 died all be it Heroically to save loved ones without concern for other fellow men um say 297........I have a big problem with that.

BTW i can meet you anywhere any time in Hemet and we can discuss this in person?
edit on 26-7-2012 by rebellender because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by rebellender
 





adding, I think you dont understand The Posse Comitatus Act and why it exists.


and I think you over extend the power of a concealed carry permit...

any CCW holder is still responsible for the actions he does, it is not a pass to commit mayhem..
edit on 26-7-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)



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