Republican dissidents join forces to form a new IRA

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


Yeah, at the time Gadaffi and his regime were the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world.

But the second biggest supporter was NORAID which received it's funds from the American public.
In addittion the US government turned a blind eye to NORAID's funding activities and the presence of countless wanted terrorist's who were living quite openly in the US and were active in trying to drum up support for their terrorist activities.

Whilst it's true that The British Army had neutralised large sections of the IRA, maybe it's just coincidence but at the same time the funding dried up senior Sinn Fein figures convinced the IRA to enter into a ceasefire and the peace process began in earnest.

No amount of spin will ever alter those facts - is it surprising that there is still much resentment about it?

ETA.
This 'army' is nothing more than a very small group of disgruntled ex-gangsters and racketeers who miss the power and control they had in the old days.
Ireland can not be allowed to go down this path again.

Liberate Ireland from the tyranny and terror of the monarchy!!!! Long live Ireland!!!

reply to post by Freeborn

And the fact that successive US governments and the American people funded terrorism and were actively complicit in the murder of innocent people, including women and children, will never be forgotten or forgiven by many British people.

And it shouldn't be! We are complete jerks.. we deserve all the scorn we get. Many however don't buy the whole "awe poor British.. the Irish just want to hurt innocent people, oh woe is me.." line. My only point was America is likely to be just as polarized over the issue as Brits and Irish are themselves.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Yes, I can see that and understand that.

And I know that we shouldn't tar all Americans with the same brush - but many Brits can't see that - it's an emotive subject.

It's quite telling that many of those who give blind support to 'the war on terrorism' also back the Irish terrorists and helped fund their terror campaign.
They seem incapable of seeing the hypocrisy and double standards in that.

How many of these 'Irish-Americans' actually have actually been to Ireland and spoke to the people who were / are directly affected by the actions of these murderer's?
Very few.

The vast majority of Irish people just want to get on with their lives the best they can, the same as the rest of us.

We can not allow Ireland to slide back into the misery and murder that was The Troubles.
Every effort must be made to eliminate them as a threat to the peace process - and that includes our 'friends and allies' over the pond ensuring that they receive only minimal support over there.

Give them a referendum and let them sort it out that way. I don't buy the notion that the Irish Republicans simply want to murder and terrorize innocent British. They have done some very bad things, obvious acts or barbarity and terrorism, but they were no more or less guilty than the British troops and the Loyalists during the troubles. Plenty of murder to go around on both sides of the fence.

reply to post by Monger

Plenty of murder to go around on both sides of the fence.

Can't disagree with you there - which is why these people have to be stopped before they can drag Northern Ireland back to the days of The Troubles.

Politicians from both sides, and the people themselves, are trying to put the past behind them and work together and move forward.

Things aren't perfect in Ulster, but it's a damn sight better than what it was and the peace process is ongoing with continuous dialogue and negotiations.

I have many Irish friends and family, from both South and North of the border, and they all agree these murdering scumbags can not be allowed to damage that process.

reply to post by Freeborn


Given the yearly marches I think it's safe to say you down play the polarization of NI. I was never in Ireland during the Troubles, to young for that, I only have the stories of my family to account for (on both sides). Ultimately what brought peace to Ireland was prosperity.. I've always maintained that once prosperity ran it's course and if the economy were to deteriorate significantly enough trouble would once again ensue.

But you are absolutely right that we are hypocrites in who we call rebels and terrorist. Most would not consider the IRA to be terrorist, but rather rebels, freedom fighters, insert poetic title here. Britain and Ireland are the two largest ethnic demographics in this country. The difference however is that the Government cannot very well piss of the ethnic Irish by condemning the Republican movement because Irish Americans are quit fierce in their heritage. Where as you'll be hard pressed to find an ethnic Brit (that we call WASPS) that is so proud. Just the nature of the people. And it's hard to explain to a European because from your perspective it's probably asinine, even oddly childish. I have friends that fly Norwegian flags at their house, it's been 100+ years since they were last Norwegian, but that's irrelevant.

reply to post by Rockpuck


An interesting perspective and take on things.

Of course things aren't perfect in Ulster and there are still sources of friction between the communities.
But I can not stress enough how much progress has been made.

That Sinn Fein and the UUP / UDP are prepared to sit around a table and DISCUSS things is in itself a truly remarkable achievement.

I never visited Ulster during The Troubles, as an English Catholic of Irish descent I could have been an easy target for both sides, but I have had some truly harrowing and disturbing stories relayed to me from people from both sides who were born and lived in places like Belfast, Derry, Newry, South Armagh etc.
And I am acquainted with the family of one of the mainland victims of an IRA bomb.

I disagree that it was prosperity that proved the spark for the peace process.
First and foremost the people of Ulster, and even Ireland as a whole, were simply sick of all the killing and everything that went with it.
They were ready for change and more importantly peace.
They wanted to live 'normal' lives.
I haven't got the time to go into details here but I don't think many people truly understand what the stark reality of everyday life was like for many people in Northern Ireland during this time - things we take for granted were impossible or just a dream for many.

Then almost simultaneously the arms dried up as did funding from the USA.

Events like the Omagh and Enniskillen bombings and the death of Robert McCartney further alienated the IRA from the 'nationalist' community.

Once the peace process started making real progress then businesses started investing in Northern Ireland.

You do however make a valid point about prosperity.
It is interesting that these terrorists feel confident enough to make this declaration now - unemployment is on the increase and Cameron's austerity cuts are beginning to bite.

Back in the bad old days when Ireland's Catholics were treat like second class citizens then there was an element of truth in the portrayal of the IRA as 'freedom fighters' etc and I personally understand the resentment that is still felt for the events of yesteryear.

But whilst the IRA's roots may lie there they developed into something quite different.
They were no different from any other organised crime organisation and their primary concern was profit and exercising control - something they did very brutally - kneecapping anyone found dealing drugs independant of them etc.

I understand the point you make about not wanting to piss off a whole voting block but non Americans find 'Irish-Americans' / 'Italian Americans' etc obsession with their 'heritage' quite ridiculous - it reeks of a desperate need to belong to something no matter how remote and irrelevant that something is.
And as you say, these people tend to be so far removed from their 'country of origin' that any links are tenuous at best.
I think 'assinine' and 'childish' are pretty accurate descriptions.
All of my Grandparents were Irish - and I take a certain amount of pride from that - but I am a 100% Englishman and Britain - it's never crossed my mind to call myself 'Irish-English' and if I did I would be ridiculed by both the English and the Irish - and quite rightly so.

To use these links as some sort of reasoning for their support of terrorists is exceptionally lame and lacking in logic and substance.

I myself am from Northern Ireland and believe this is very sad news.

No one wants to go back to this crap and these guys do not have any support from either side. I am a Catholic BTW. They CANNOT bring about a united Ireland. If they couldnt at their peak strength in the 1970s/1980s then they certainly cant now.

Killing both Catholic and Protestant members of the PSNI (Police force) and waging more terror in general will achieve absolutely nothing.

I hope these guys get eradicated once and for all and do us all a favor...

reply to post by Gibonz


I hope they are stopped, but not eradicated.

This is the full statement from the council,

Following extensive consultations, Irish republicans and a number of organisations involved in armed actions against the armed forces of the British crown have come together within a unified structure, under a single leadership, subservient to the constitution of the Irish Republican Army. "The leadership of the Irish Republican Army remains committed to the full realisation of the ideals and principles enshrined in the Proclamation of 1916. "In recent years the establishment of a free and independent Ireland has suffered setbacks due to the failure among the leadership of Irish nationalism and fractures within republicanism.

The root cause of conflict in our country is the subversion of the nation's inalienable right to self-determination and this has yet to be addressed. Instead the Irish people have been sold a phoney peace, rubber-stamped by a token legislature in Stormont. "Non-conformist republicans are being subjected to harassment, arrest and violence by the forces of the British crown; others have been interned on the direction of an English overlord. It is Britain, not the IRA, which has chosen provocation and conflict. "The IRA's mandate for armed struggle derives from Britain's denial of the fundamental right of the Irish people to national self-determination and sovereignty – so long as Britain persists in its denial of national and democratic rights in Ireland the IRA will have to continue to assert those rights.

"The necessity of armed struggle in pursuit of Irish freedom can be avoided through the removal of the British military presence in our country, the dismantling of their armed militias and the declaration of an internationally observed timescale that details the dismantling of British political interference in our country. "Signed Army Council … IRA."

www.guardian.co.uk...

They make undeniable points, but a campaign of violence will not achieve a unified Ireland and will ultimately annoy people like ourselves and receive little support from anyone.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk

I hope they are stopped, but not eradicated.

Why not eradicated?

They make undeniable points

Like what?

reply to post by Freeborn


Because I do not like the language. It is implying that the only way to deal with this is to wipe these people out. That is not how to deal with this issue or any issue quite frankly.

This,

The root cause of conflict in our country is the subversion of the nation's inalienable right to self-determination and this has yet to be addressed. Instead the Irish people have been sold a phoney peace, rubber-stamped by a token legislature in Stormont.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk

Because I do not like the language. It is implying that the only way to deal with this is to wipe these people out. That is not how to deal with this issue or any issue quite frankly.

Yes, I can see how you may think that, but by being eradicated I mean the idea that terrorists can bomb their way to imposing their will over other's.
The people of Northern Ireland voted for The Good Friday Agreement, as did The Republic, because these people have lost the majority of their control and income they believe they can use terror tactics to return to the bad old days - it is that which needs eradicating, not the people.

Perhaps eradicate was the wrong choice of word but I'm sure you understand my point.

This,
The root cause of conflict in our country is the subversion of the nation's inalienable right to self-determination and this has yet to be addressed. Instead the Irish people have been sold a phoney peace, rubber-stamped by a token legislature in Stormont.

Why is it a 'phoney peace'?
It's very much real to those who don't have to live under the constant threat of killing, maiming and bigotry like they used to.

As I stated above, the people of Northern Ireland voted heavily in favour for the peace process.
All indicators show that the percentage in favour of the process has actually increased, especially in nationalist communities where it is estimated that up to 75% of people now wish to remain within the UK provided the current Northern Ireland Assembly remains in Stormont.

And what is the problem with Stormont?
Northern Ireland has far more say on it's own governance than England does.

If Sinn Fein are moving away from a manifesto solely concerned with bringing about a United Ireland it is because they are representing the wishes and concerns of those who elected them.

The fact is that a United Ireland is no longer a primary concern of the vast majority of Irish people, regardless of political or religious persuassion.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Because I do not like the language. It is implying that the only way to deal with this is to wipe these people out. That is not how to deal with this issue or any issue quite frankly.

Their position is that 'armed struggle' is a necessity. They feel a need to revitalise the conflict because those who they are imitating instead chose peace. If this fringe band of Walter Mittys absolutely rejects the notion of pursuing their agenda peacefully, then there is little use in engaging peacefully with them.

If they believe that they are soldiers fighting a war, then in my opinion they should be treated as such.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Peruvianmonk

 

Because I do not like the language. It is implying that the only way to deal with this is to wipe these people out. That is not how to deal with this issue or any issue quite frankly.

The fact is that a United Ireland is no longer a primary concern of the vast majority of Irish people, regardless of political or religious persuassion.

I think a lot of Irish people just might disagree with you on that point. I agree that it would be folly to return to the way things were, but there has to be a better solution than one that many Irish simply aren't happy with.

reply to post by Freeborn


I only ever wanted to give an American perspective in this thread. I have had uncles tell me the fear they had that NI "Terrorist" would slaughter them in their house, about how they were held siege at their businesses etc. So they came to America. And likewise I've had family tell me how British soldiers broke their front door down and subjugated the family to weekly searches, to random searches on the streets, how no one would hire them. And this is me as an American having both sides of the argument, "green and orange" as they say.

And I've most certainly seen the pride of Irish Americans, and I know from my own family how Europeans see us as something comical. But at the same time there is no such thing as an "American" to an American. It's like being born on an island and told your people came from elsewhere. From a young age you're told this, and that you should always associate with your people before being American. Maybe that explains our hatred of our own citizens, I don't know. I was raised "Irish Catholic" (my dad being Irish protestant) and St. Patrick's day has always had more esteem than the 4th of July. Think of it like an entire country (as there are almost more Irish decedents in America than there are citizens in the entire United Kingdom) that holds dual citizenship in their own minds. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I myself still hope to move to Ireland (if I can only convince my wife!) and I certainly don't wish any hard times on anyone. But the feelings are real, they should be considered, and under no circumstances should American Irish be underestimated.

reply to post by Rockpuck


That's the best and most intelligent explanation I've ever read of the 'Irish-American' viewpoint and perspective and I certainly appreciate it.

I too could relate countless stories about IRA / INLA / UDA / UFF terrorists and murderer's and their activities.
I could also tell many a story about The British Army - again from both sides. (I know many a person who joined up and served in Northern Ireland, if you've never spoke to anyone who has served there I recommend you do so, you will gain a completely different persective altogether).

The perception over here is that all 'Irish-Americans' are Nationalists - it'd be interesting to hear your uncles take on things.

It's like being born on an island and told your people came from elsewhere.

I do live on an island and my people did come from elsewhere, just like many Brits - yet I am English and British.

And whilst I still find the very notion of 'Irish-American' comical I certainly have a better understanding, possibly even appreciation, of it.

And if these 'Irish-Americans' truly have Ireland in their heart then they can not fund these terrorists and enable them to resume their campaign of terror.

Originally posted by Monger


I think a lot of Irish people just might disagree with you on that point. I agree that it would be folly to return to the way things were, but there has to be a better solution than one that many Irish simply aren't happy with.

Yes alot of Irish people may well disagree with that view, but a lot more Northern Irish people would agree...


Many Irish people are glad to be part of the UK...after all...they voted in:

en.wikipedia.org...


Or take a look at that which is far more up to date...
www.guardian.co.uk...

However much people like to shout "Give Northern Ireland back" they can't change the fact that the majority of the people living there don't want that to happen.

Being from Northern Ireland and knowing how these groups behave the only way to stop them is to get the SAS back in and take them out once and for all. May be viewed as harsh to some people but these guys are cold hard killers fighting for nothin but causing mayhem and chaos to people who wanna live a normal life.

Take this case. Catholic member of the PSNI blown to bits in his car for simply being a Catholic in the police force
en.m.wikipedia.org...

Another, Catholic police member got his legs blown off for bein a Catholic
news.bbc.co.uk...

Protestant Police officer called to a hoax 999 call and shot dead
www.bbc.co.uk...

How many more examples do you want? These guys will kill their own people because theyre in the police force. You fight fire with fire. This country is sick of these scumbags and wants to move on.

You have to realise this is not the IRA of old. Forget all the romanticism there was before about freedom fighters and fighting for justice for Catholics. They are gangsters that just enjoy murdering people for no reason because their lives have no meaning in a world relative peace...

Some interesting further information. The group seems to understand its own limits.

He (a source within the new group) agreed that the paramilitary group would be limited to mounting sporadic attacks and was incapable of waging a sustained campaign of violence as the Provisional IRA had.

“Those days are gone. Our aim is to disrupt Britain’s normalisation policy. We do not need to carry out military operations every day or every week to do so. “The very existence of continuing armed struggle highlights the lie that the conflict is over and everything is settled. It shows there still are people here prepared to challenge British rule.” Read more: www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...[/ ex]

edit on 30-7-2012 by Peruvianmonk because: Format