Gay Marriage. I am honestly confused

It is NOT complicated.

America is a secular country.

LEGAL Marriage is a civil right. Which means Equality for all.

Society evolves. Government lets society get used to new "ideas" of cultural change.

There will be Federal Marriage for gays.

Federal trumps state rights.

Its only a matter of time.

reply to post by Annee

It is NOT complicated. America is a secular country.

This is not what I'm arguing about. This is a straw man, a deflection. But I know, you just don't debate you just tell people they're wrong and expect them to accept your word for it.

I do not support discrimination. If they want to be married I don't care.

I see a lot of bigotry and prejudice on both sides of the issue. I wish to stop it all. I, however, have no real solutions, I can only point it out when it rears its ugly head. I wish I did have one. I really wish humanity could learn to overcome its petty bigotries and prejudices. This world would be a far better place for it.

Most people can't see it because they're too emotionally invested in this issue and always can not think of anything else but how justified they are. It is far easier to see bigotry in others than to see bigotry in one's self.

I am going to veer this conversation off in a little different direction.....I have made the point that I feel there is an "agenda" at work....and I would like to share my experiences in Guernville CA, a few miles down the road from Monto Rio, where the Bohemian Grove is located..... on the Russian river in CA...at the time I had NO idea what the hell was happening.....

Against my better judgement and my families strong opposition my "decietful" ex husband moved , infact insisted, that we move from Central CA, to Nor.CA...our daughter was 6 mns old...I was still nursing....at first it seemed very beautiful there, and it is actually, beautiful redwoods, the river, we got an amazing place to rent with a hot-tub for only $800.....but I was soon to find out that we were living in a "gay" community....some hippies too...but it was a "crazy" place......it was there I started to really learn that my husband was gay/Bi....now at the time I didn't know this, but everyone in the Bay Area knows this place is for gays...and I believe he knew this full well when he moved us there.....

But that isn't even the wierdest part, I end up meeting this woman at "hippie" baby gym class...and we become friends.....she takes me on a hike into the Bohemian Grove, security was not high back then I guess, especially when the " power's" weren't in town....but as God is my wittness...I have stood in front of that creepy, evil, sacarifice owl...in this bizzare place out in the woods...that has seating for hundreds surrounding it, they used sawed in half redwood trees to make this areana.....

The place right away gave me an uneasy feeling....and she started to explain to me the "history" as the locals understood what happens there, when presidents, powerful businessman, senators, congressman come into town every year for thier "retreat".......for the most part this is a woman free zone...she had a job one year parking cars outside of the gates.....but it is well known it that community that this is all about not only some bizzare rituals....but a gay orgy" male prostitutes are brought in by the dozens.

Now, where do we draw the line between powerful men making policy for ALL of our lives being total liars and hypocrites.....hey are all Men secretly gay? I don't know anymore....but many men controlling the world seem to be? I wish Neno, our regent was here, I just don't know how to explain how much this bothers me...and the worst part is it makes me look like I am attacking individuals that I probably would like very much in real life....I just want people, especially people that have power over my life to be honest......

You want politicians to be honest? That doesn't really sound synonymous in my book.

As for the gay orgy thing, that's pretty weird, but it's even weirder that someone would take you to that without telling you. I wonder what area you lived in. I used to live in San Francisco, and even the Castro which is the predominantly gay male area, there are several heterosexual families that live there with kids. That's all fine and dandy for me, but unfortunately I've heard a few gay males complaining about that, that they don't want to see families with babies walking around "their" neighborhood. Pure ignorance if you ask me....

Originally posted by MountainLaurel

......it was there I started to really learn that my husband was gay/Bi....now at the time I didn't know this, but everyone in the Bay Area knows this place is for gays...and I believe he knew this full well when he moved us there.....

So this is about a personal experience you had.

And you want to paint all gay men as your ex-husband.

People are People. There are good people - honest people - and deceitful people. Because he is Bi/gay - - you condemn all gays?

As far as I'm concerned - - - your conspiracy fears have nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by Xaberz
. . . but unfortunately I've heard a few gay males complaining about that, that they don't want to see families with babies walking around "their" neighborhood. Pure ignorance if you ask me....

But - - as gays become more mainstream - - and more accepted - - straights have no problem going into areas that were once designated "gay areas".

Rachel Maddow did an opinion piece on "Gay Culture at Risk From Marriage". In other words - - - losing Gay culture.

"I feel that gay people not being able to get married for generations, forever, meant that we came up with alternative ways of recognizing relationships," she said. "And I worry that if everybody has access to the same institutions that we lose the creativity of subcultures having to make it on their own. And I like gay culture." www.advocate.com...

reply to post by Xaberz


Good question, why would she bring me there....because she was smart, a teacher, a dear friend....and somehow she knew I would understand it all at some point....We only lived there for 8 mns.....I took control on many levels and said "hell no" we moved to Sonoma County.....but I always remained friends with Charlene......my visits, floating down the river with her, are forever in my soul.......

6 mns after we got the hell out of there they had a terrible flood, and you know, this woman took her little row boat and helped her daughter, handicapied neighbor get to safety, but she friggin went back and saved all the cats ...When I was a shallow bitch....selling my soul for money and the co. car.....she was my friend.....she died young....early 40's.....on New Year's Day, in her sleep....Her daughter had gone off to college, and I really think she was just done......she was ahead of her time, at least my time....and I pray she is peaceful now.....

Our daughters still keep in touch, after all they played together in baby gym....that's a special bond...soo many fun memories.....Birthday parties, swimming, barbaques, camping... Anyways...she knew exactly what she was showing me.....and to my friend in Heaven...I'm sorry I didn't understand at the time....♥

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by Xaberz

 

Good question, why would she bring me there....because she was smart, a teacher, a dear friend....and somehow she knew I would understand it all at some point....We only lived there for 8 mns.....I took control on many levels and said "hell no" we moved to Sonoma County.....but I always remained friends with Charlene......my visits, floating down the river with her, are forever in my soul.......

This is really boring me in this thread - - - because it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

What the hell does "taking control of your levels" mean? And what does it have to do with gay marriage?

It's just wrong in this thread.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MountainLaurel

......it was there I started to really learn that my husband was gay/Bi....now at the time I didn't know this, but everyone in the Bay Area knows this place is for gays...and I believe he knew this full well when he moved us there.....

So this is about a personal experience you had.

And you want to paint all gay men as your ex-husband.

People are People. There are good people - honest people - and deceitful people. Because he is Bi/gay - - you condemn all gays?

As far as I'm concerned - - - your conspiracy fears have nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Awww Annee I have tried so hard to at least come to a middle ground....I just tried.. the best I could.. to give you..I think very important examples of why and how this is deeper then my personal experiences, but yes I have laid it on the line.....it is personal....on that we will agree.......but your lack of understanding, and need to argue is hurtful.....I have said my peace, spoken from my heart....I stand by what I "feel"...♫.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MountainLaurel

......it was there I started to really learn that my husband was gay/Bi....now at the time I didn't know this, but everyone in the Bay Area knows this place is for gays...and I believe he knew this full well when he moved us there.....

So this is about a personal experience you had.

And you want to paint all gay men as your ex-husband.

People are People. There are good people - honest people - and deceitful people. Because he is Bi/gay - - you condemn all gays?

As far as I'm concerned - - - your conspiracy fears have nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Awww Annee I have tried so hard to at least come to a middle ground....I just tried.. the best I could.. to give you..I think very important examples of why and how this is deeper then my personal experiences, but yes I have laid it on the line.....it is personal....on that we will agree.......but your lack of understanding, and need to argue is hurtful.....I have said my peace, spoken from my heart....I stand by what I "feel"...♫.

I don't have a problem with you and your personal experience.

I just have a problem with it in this thread - - - because it doesn't fit.

reply to post by Annee


On that note Annee...I will say goodnight to this thread,,,,if you think people's personal experiences don't "fit" in this thread...then I suggest your not willing to discuss this subject "fairly"....All along I have agreed that EVEYONE should have equal rights under this "shame" we call Law....that is fair in this messed up world....

I am curious though, as you have said, your an older hetero woman.....at least from what I believe you have said,if that is true.....why in the world as a woman and a grandma....would you want to totally dimiss the "forces" going up againt your babies?

I always thought gay marriage was about gaining the same benefits as heterosexual marriage. For example, your straight and your partner who is military dies in combat, you receive benefits from the military for loss of income... Gay marriage would allow the same benefits. If "marriage" is a religious constitution, then give the gays a different title to use that would give the same economic benefits. God doesn't say you will get benefits from government or military when your husband/wife dies, people do. That being said, if its a religious issue, create a new religion that is recognized by law, that recognizes gay spouses and allows these spouses the right to benefits the other laws define.

Originally posted by Strainz
I always thought gay marriage was about gaining the same benefits as heterosexual marriage. For example, your straight and your partner who is military dies in combat, you receive benefits from the military for loss of income... Gay marriage would allow the same benefits. If "marriage" is a religious constitution, then give the gays a different title to use that would give the same economic benefits. God doesn't say you will get benefits from government or military when your husband/wife dies, people do. That being said, if its a religious issue, create a new religion that is recognized by law, that recognizes gay spouses and allows these spouses the right to benefits the other laws define.

Well, first of all, we would also have to change the title for atheists, satanists, paganists, wiccans, etc. Second of all, you can change the title of the license to anything you want, but what is to stop anyone from saying they are "married"? Is the marriage police going to follow all non-religious couples around to make sure they don't use the term "married"? Ridiculous. How about we leave it what it is, and intolerant people get over themselves, as it won't affect their marriage in any way.

Originally posted by Strainz
but what is to stop anyone from saying they are "married"?

People might not stop someone from saying they are married, but think of a scenario where you are visiting your partners home state, and say that state where they don't recognize same sex marriages or civil unions. And then your loved one ends up in the ER, and the nurse asks are you family, and you say, we're married, and they look at you and say, I'm sorry but same sex marriage isn't recognized in our state, you're going to have to wait outside... That's how they stop you... :/

Originally posted by Xaberz

Originally posted by Strainz
but what is to stop anyone from saying they are "married"?

People might not stop someone from saying they are married, but think of a scenario where you are visiting your partners home state, and say that state where they don't recognize same sex marriages or civil unions. And then your loved one ends up in the ER, and the nurse asks are you family, and you say, we're married, and they look at you and say, I'm sorry but same sex marriage isn't recognized in our state, you're going to have to wait outside... That's how they stop you... :/

edit on 9/24/2012 by Xaberz because: (no reason given)

What I was referring to, was if we allowed same-sex unions in every state with all the same benefits, but called it a "civil union" license instead of a "marriage" license. Calling it a civil union license is not stopping anyone from saying that they are married. Why bother changing the official title? It's kind of like a common-law marriage. You don't hear a man say, "this is my common-law wife" -- you hear him say, "this is my wife".

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by Annee

 

On that note Annee...I will say goodnight to this thread,,,,if you think people's personal experiences don't "fit" in this thread...then I suggest your not willing to discuss this subject "fairly"....All along I have agreed that EVEYONE should have equal rights under this "shame" we call Law....that is fair in this messed up world....

Well - to be sure I went back and read the OP - - just to see if your conspiracies and personal experience fit the discussion. This is the basic point of the OP:

I do not get the whole wanting to marry thing at all! I get the wanting to be with someone you love, and I get its no ones business what you do in your own home so long as its not harmful to another human being.... I just do not get the whole entering into a contract before God who does not approve thing

I know there is at least one other poster who's talked about her ex being gay. I think it would make a good thread on its own - - and you could throw in your conspiracy theory.

I am curious though, as you have said, your an older hetero woman.....at least from what I believe you have said,if that is true.....why in the world as a woman and a grandma....would you want to totally dimiss the "forces" going up againt your babies?

What forces? Its your conspiracy. Its something you believe.

I raised my kids/grand kids that "People are their Heart" and to be of independent thought with integrity. Its their road to travel now.

Originally posted by Strainz
If "marriage" is a religious constitution, then give the gays a different title to use that would give the same economic benefits. God doesn't say you will get benefits from government or military when your husband/wife dies, people do. That being said, if its a religious issue, create a new religion that is recognized by law, that recognizes gay spouses and allows these spouses the right to benefits the other laws define.

We are a secular country.

The LEGAL government contract is entitled: "Marriage License".

Religion can not be used as a basis of argument.

Besides - not all gays give up their God belief - - just because they are gay. Many will be married in religious ceremonies in churches that are supportive.

The point I was making is that religion should not decide who gets the benefits of being legally married. When it comes down to it marriage is just a piece of paper and a couple of rings; others can have a life companion who they treat as if they were married and live so for the rest of their lives. The benefits of being legally married are the only difference between marriage and a civil union. Give the civil union the same benefits and wallah, same same, you can keep on practicing your religion whatever it is and gain the benefits of legal marriage.

I am willing to look at alternatives that inevitably give civil union the same rights as marriage. I find it a little confusing to believe the title is all gays seek - one would seemingly fight for legal rights of marriage like tax benefits, government benefits, employment benefits, medical benefits, housing benefits, consumer benefits and legal protections. These are the real world differences between a civil union and marriage.

If all it takes is to enable the same rights as marriage through a tittle like "Civil Union" why wouldn't you? Instead of beating around the bush hoping for a religious freedom you know is going to take a lot longer. Get your benefits first, then battle it out for a title change.

Unfortunately marriage is a religious/biological term and its meaning would have to be changed for it to accurately apply to same sex couples, this is a fact, so it IS religion and the definition of the word that is stopping the RIGHTS and BENEFITS to use that TERM to gain these RIGHTS and BENEFITS, so for the love of your god, sidestep the formality and gain your benefits without the grief of fighting a thousand year old plus religion.

That being said I am in support for everyone to have the same rights no matter your religion, sexuality or disposition. So lets stop farting around and get it done. Just to clarify you don't call a heterosexual person a gay person because the definition is wrong.

Change the meaning of the word first maybe that will help, and then you wouldn't have to change the titles of those who use the word for its correct meaning. I understand what your trying to say. I love you.

mar·riage/ˈmarij/ Noun: A) The formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife. B) A relationship between married people or the period for which it lasts.

reply to post by Xaberz


Might want to check your quote because that is not my post.

reply to post by Strainz

If all it takes is to enable the same rights as marriage through a tittle like "Civil Union" why wouldn't you? Instead of beating around the bush hoping for a religious freedom you know is going to take a lot longer. Get your benefits first, then battle it out for a title change. Goddamn.

It's really not about getting the same benefits. What it is really about is forcing mainstream society to accept homosexuality as normal. That's why they are making a big fuss about the word marriage, and go after any all organizations that does not accept them as normal.