Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Verses 10 through 13 are a hymn, where it is differentiated by the verses before and after being a direct address by YHWH, and that part being addressing YHWH in the third person.
It is a new hymn to YHWH going forth as a warrior, and the servant, whoever that is, is left completely out.

Why Kedar?
Kedar is a distant land which none of the biblical prophets had anything to do with. Theres a good reason why specific places where mentioned in verses 10-13.

As for the rest of the chapter, it implies that the servant is doing the will of God... and God acts through that servant.

I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the
darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them. But those who trust in idols, who say to images, ‘You are our gods,’ will be turned back in utter shame.

reply to post by adjensen

So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. (Luke 23:3 NIV)

Did you happen to notice the KJV doesn't say that at all?

3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.

The NIV says he said "yes" i am the king of the Jews... the KJV says "You said it"... or in other words, i didn't say that... you did..

interesting...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The christian approach to this is that every single mention of "servant" of God points to Jesus.
Yet some believe Jesus is also God.... and also the "servant of God".

Not all Christians think that way.
To me the direct references to Jesus was to Adonai.
Jesus and the NT writers would use imagery from the prophecies and apply them to Jesus but that use does not interpret the prophecy. That is a fallacy many people fall into, thinking there is a reciprocal interpretation.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. (Luke 23:3 NIV)

Did you happen to notice the KJV doesn't say that at all?

3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.

The NIV says he said "yes" i am the king of the Jews... the KJV says "You said it"... or in other words, i didn't say that... you did..

interesting...

I don't see a significant difference there, sorry. The underlying message remains the same, and it has nothing to do with Pilate's personal opinion.

reply to post by jmdewey60

He didn't have to since he made it clear enough that he was going to die and we would live by his dying, such as the metaphor of eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

I was addressing the christian doctrine about Jesus' death being a sin sacrifice, as mentioned by lonewolf.

My point was that when Jesus reappeared, neither Jesus nor any of the people who witnessed Jesus ever said anything about Jesus execution being "sin sacrifice"... which is today a very important part of Jesus death.
Surprising that nothing is even mentioned about such an important christian belief.

The sin sacrifice theology developed much later.

reply to post by adjensen

"One guy" is not "many Christians". I am asking you to evidence your claim that many Christians reject Paul, and pointing to a random person here or there does not substantiate that claim.
Provide that evidence, or withdraw the claim.

When I said "many" christians, I meant individuals with blogs and websites... they are people who prefer Jesus over Paul... and refrain from putting the two on the same pedestal.

I never claimed that they are a large denomination.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

"One guy" is not "many Christians". I am asking you to evidence your claim that many Christians reject Paul, and pointing to a random person here or there does not substantiate that claim.
Provide that evidence, or withdraw the claim.

When I said "many" christians, I meant individuals with blogs and websites... they are people who prefer Jesus over Paul... and refrain from putting the two on the same pedestal.

I never claimed that they are a large denomination.

Well, since you are unable to provide a denominational view, how about a theological view? What are the instances of Paul's teaching directly refuting Christ's?

reply to post by adjensen


Its quite ok... I've found most Christians tend to see what they want to regardless of what is actually said...

As you can tell by this thread, its title... and the OP...

But whatever...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Its quite ok... I've found most Christians tend to see what they want to regardless of what is actually said...

... and I have found that critics of Christianity tend to see Christians as what they want to, regardless of what is actually said... :p

Said critics seem to be of the belief that every Christian is a Fundamentalist, and they really get their panties in a bunch when they run across one, like me, who is not.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Why Kedar?
Kedar is a distant land which none of the biblical prophets had anything to do with. Theres a good reason why specific places where mentioned in verses 10-13.

It could have been talking about an area as close as Jordan.
Verses 14 through 17 would be YHWH talking in a narrative way to no one in particular, using imagery from the exodus of leading travelers by a light and making a pathway for them.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Its quite ok... I've found most Christians tend to see what they want to regardless of what is actually said...

... and I have found that critics of Christianity tend to see Christians as what they want to, regardless of what is actually said... :p

Said critics seem to be of the belief that every Christian is a Fundamentalist, and they really get their panties in a bunch when they run across one, like me, who is not.

I actually would agree with that...

nifty eh

reply to post by adjensen

What are the instances of Paul's teaching directly refuting Christ's?

Off the top of my head...

1. Jesus insisted that the law be followed.
Paul dismissed the law.

2. Jesus taught call no man your father.
Paul declared he became father through Jesus.

Originally posted by Akragon
I actually would agree with that...

nifty eh

Star for you, lol

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Paul claimed Jesus was equal to God...

Jesus said no such thing...

Just had to add that one... kinda important piece of info...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Surprising that nothing is even mentioned about such an important christian belief.

We have different Bible versions now days from what they had when those theories were made, and it takes a long time for people to catch up with the state of the art biblical understanding.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

What are the instances of Paul's teaching directly refuting Christ's?

Off the top of my head...

1. Jesus insisted that the law be followed.
Paul dismissed the law.

No. Jesus claimed that the law wasn't what mattered, but the basis of the law (witness the gathering of grain on the Sabbath) and Paul is 100% in agreement with that.

2. Jesus taught call no man your father.
Paul declared he became father through Jesus.

That doesn't even make any sense. Please provide a scriptural reference for that so that I can figure out what you mean.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Paul claimed Jesus was equal to God...

Jesus said no such thing...

Just had to add that one... kinda important piece of info...

Don't forget Peter, John, James and Jude..

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Paul claimed Jesus was equal to God...

Jesus said no such thing...

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28 NIV)

Where is the accompanying text that has Christ saying "I am not God! Stop your blasphemy, Thomas!"?

Christ's life testifies to his divinity, he does't need to spell it out for you, does he?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Paul claimed Jesus was equal to God...

Jesus said no such thing...

Just had to add that one... kinda important piece of info...

Don't forget Peter, John, James and Jude..

None of which matter either way.... He did not ever claim equality to God...

Even within the gospels that line is used in Narration... Jesus never said it, same as he didn't claim to be God...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Paul claimed Jesus was equal to God...

Jesus said no such thing...

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28 NIV)

Where is the accompanying text that has Christ saying "I am not God! Stop your blasphemy, Thomas!"?

Christ's life testifies to his divinity, he does't need to spell it out for you, does he?

Whos denying his divinity... he was as he claimed to be, which was "the son of God"...

He said that specifically... on the other hand the words I am God, or anything even close never came from his mouth...