Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You're Bible got it wrong. It is not John the Baptist who said that but Jesus, and he was also the voice crying in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord"..

Get your rabbis and priest to disclose the original Torah and the Gospel, then haply you might be guided rightly.

So all those bible scholars who have spent their entire lives dedicated to studying the scriptures have it wrong? I doubt that. It seems to me that you're implying that Muhammad is the Messiah which your thinking that Muhammad has "3 times the glory" of Christ implies. I think you're suffering from a case of mistaken identity. The word Christ means "Messiah", the very idea that Muhammad could have 3 times more glory than Messiah is blasphemy on levels you cannot comprehend. It appears that you are also suffering from ignorance of what you believe in. You have some soul searching to do. Muhammad didn't get nailed to a cross for anyone or die for anyone, that should tell you something.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

lonewolf19792000 - I would like to invite you to contribute a first rate post to the thread in my signature, pulling out all the best Bible quotes, as much to show the same God (in spirit) running through the whole of the Bible from the OT to the new, as to reveal God's "superdeterministic" nature meaning able to work a work within history, from outside of history, in such a way that everything happens precisely according to plan, and in perfect alignment with historical causation such that when he enters the frame as a human being, he's right on time (see the Real Star of Bethlehem video series first).

Thanks in advance if you see to it to make that contribution..

NAM

P.S. If you DO take on this assignment, please don't lecture me and try to prove me wrong in my thread and if possible stick to the assignment of proving God's sovereignty in time and history and that the same God foreshadowed in the OT, and framed, enters that same frame in the NT. Thanks.

Bump request.. U2U me if you like.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

lonewolf19792000 - I would like to invite you to contribute a first rate post to the thread in my signature, pulling out all the best Bible quotes, as much to show the same God (in spirit) running through the whole of the Bible from the OT to the new, as to reveal God's "superdeterministic" nature meaning able to work a work within history, from outside of history, in such a way that everything happens precisely according to plan, and in perfect alignment with historical causation such that when he enters the frame as a human being, he's right on time (see the Real Star of Bethlehem video series first).

Thanks in advance if you see to it to make that contribution..

NAM

P.S. If you DO take on this assignment, please don't lecture me and try to prove me wrong in my thread and if possible stick to the assignment of proving God's sovereignty in time and history and that the same God foreshadowed in the OT, and framed, enters that same frame in the NT. Thanks.

edit on 3-8-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

Lol, i'll give it a shot. It's a fairly large task you ask because Jesus fulfilled nearly 400 prophecies. I've watched the "Real Star of Bethlehem". I can only begin to grasp at what Daniel knew. It's hard to say how he works a work from outside history or do you mean time?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Um, well from Genesis, all the way through, everything foreshadows and creates the framework through which Jesus stepped onto the scene, but he was RIGHT ON TIME, meaning that his birth and great work was set in the movement of the earth, moon, sun, planets and stars. Superdeterministic means that at every given point along a timeline, whatever happens could only have happened in a certain way, but in this case, those signs in the heavens, which Jesus himself would have been aware of, that's superdeterminism to the nth degree because that kind of thing would have had to have been woven into the creation, from the very moment of creation itself! So what I'm trying to catch in that thread is the really "trippy" aspect of how God knew everything beforehand, and then performed his great work, to the very HOUR of a certain solar eclipse 33 years after the Star of Bethlehem, which was nine months after the perfect conjuction of Jupiter and Venus together. It's extraordinary! And you've done much of the Biblical research in terms of the entire prophetic frame running througth the OT to the new.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Nor did Jesus, been crucified.

Jesus is the Messiah, annointed one sent to the Children of Israel ONLY.

The Prophet Muhammad is the Messenger of God sent to ALL mankind.

The answer to your question is YES. Your Bible scholars has spent countless hours on research and they will spend countless more but they will never truly understand the Truth unless they have the Key. The First Chapter of the Holy Qur'an is called the Key or Opener. You may read all scriptures but you will never understand them fully unless you have the key to decode all the hidden things;

Acquire wisdom and truth from whomever you can because even an apostate can have them but unless they are passed over to a faithful Muslim and become part of wisdom and truth that he possesses, they have a confused existence in the minds of apostates. Ali Ibn Abi Talib.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000



Yeshua is the Son of God and had the Spirit of the Father/God living and speaking through him, and He is one in Spirit, with the Father.

Yeshua is the Son of God, and now sits at the right hand of the Father God.


- JC

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Nor did Jesus, been crucified.

Jesus is the Messiah, annointed one sent to the Children of Israel ONLY.

The Prophet Muhammad is the Messenger of God sent to ALL mankind.

The answer to your question is YES. Your Bible scholars has spent countless hours on research and they will spend countless more but they will never truly understand the Truth unless they have the Key. The First Chapter of the Holy Qur'an is called the Key or Opener. You may read all scriptures but you will never understand them fully unless you have the key to decode all the hidden things;

Acquire wisdom and truth from whomever you can because even an apostate can have them but unless they are passed over to a faithful Muslim and become part of wisdom and truth that he possesses, they have a confused existence in the minds of apostates. Ali Ibn Abi Talib.

See but not only do you contradict the new testament, but you contradict jewish Talmudic scriptures that also attest that he was crucified and extrabiblical accounts of his crucifixtion for a total of 3 witnesses. Three witnesses my dear, that say your Quran is made up. In a court of law your Quran would be dismissed. I already have the key to understand the scriptures, because Jesus the Messiah is my King and i have been given his Spirit as Helper to show me these things.

Isaiah 64:5-6

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.

6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

If Jesus didn't die for our sins to pay our price, then we are all dead in our sins. Even you, for no amount of good works can cancel your debt. There is nothing you can give to God that he would be willing to ransom your soul for. You. Cannot. Save. Yourself. Without Jesus as your Savior you will find the second death waiting for you.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Name above all names = Yahweh. Now lets see the hebrew bible.

Slight problem there, where Paul is in the diaspora and writing in Greek so is quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, so as you look further in Philippians you see the answer in verse 11

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Here it is saying that he is given the title Lord which would be the word used in the Septuagint instead of YHWH. So for the purposes of the Greek speakers such as Jesus and the Apostles and the people they were evangelizing, the name given to Jesus which is above all names is Lord, which of course is a title, as was YHWH back in the Old Testament, and not a proper name, which is why Jesus could say in the Gospel of John that he was the I Am, which is what YHWH meant.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I do not expect you to understand the bible, but it says what it says and i have shown you folks over and over and over.

You always seem unable to directly address a chapter or a verse that I bring up from the bible...
instead, you quote from unrelated verses, especially Pauls works and then try and draw an imaginary connection to the verses that I originally brought up.

but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Ah, so thats where that theology about God taking on the form of a human comes from. Ridiculous.
You discard everything else in the bible about Jesus being the servant of God and cling on to an isolated verse or two from Paul to present your case that Jesus is God.

What I find absurd is that Paul is someone who many christians themselves suspect of being a false apostle.

reply to post by Deetermined

It wasn't Muhammad.

Jeremiah 49:28

28 Here is what the Lord says about the land of Kedar and the kingdoms of Hazor. Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylonia, was planning to attack them.

The Lord says to the armies of Babylonia,
"Prepare for battle. Attack Kedar.
Destroy the people of the east.

Your'e probably thinking "Kedar here and Kedar there, so it must mean the same thing".

Its not the same thing.
Jeremiah 49 sounds like bad news to Kedar.
It has no connection with Isaiah 42 where Kedar "shouts for joy"... and its people are brought out of the darkness and led into the light by the servant of God.

As for the servant spoken about in Isaiah 42:1-9, this is clearly Jesus. The verses state that this servant will make everything right in EVERY nation and make everything right on earth, not just in Kedar. Also notice that these verses state that this servant will be the leader of Israel and make them a light unto the world.

a) If its Jesus, then I'm guessing you don't believe Jesus is God.
b) Even then Jesus has NOTHING to do with the land of Kedar and the defeat of its idolaters.
c) Isaiah 42 does not state that the servant will make "everything right in every nation". It is very specific about places, i.e - Kedar, the wilderness, Sela (the rock).

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Ah, so thats where that theology about God taking on the form of a human comes from. Ridiculous.
You discard everything else in the bible about Jesus being the servant of God and cling on to an isolated verse or two from Paul to present your case that Jesus is God.

What are you talking about? Have you never read the Gospels? Matthew, Mark and Luke testify to Christ's divinity, though in a rather subtle manner that many miss, but John? That's over the top, intentionally, when it because obvious that a lot of the audience just didn't understand Luke 23:3 (as one example)

Do you?

So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. (Luke 23:3 NIV)

What I find absurd is that Paul is someone who many christians themselves suspect of being a false apostle.

Who are these Christians who believe Paul to be a false Apostle? How about a source to a mainstream Christian denomination who "suspect him of being a false apostle"? Your claim of "many" would indicate that this movement isn't some lone nut, so what is your basis for that claim?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

If Jesus didn't die for our sins to pay our price, then we are all dead in our sins. Even you, for no amount of good works can cancel your debt. There is nothing you can give to God that he would be willing to ransom your soul for.

Jesus did not die to pay a "sin debt".
The "cancel" was a result described in Colossians 2 but if you read the context it was the regulations that were cancelled.
"For our sins" is in 1 John 2 but the context shows it means so we can stop sinning.
"Ransom" has the idea of payment attached to it by definition but is to take us out of the bondage to the old written law, and to bring us under grace where we live by a spiritual law God writes on our hearts.
Jesus died to break the power that was over people, "Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross."
The debt was one of obligation to service that was really to men, who were using God as their justification for making those demands. Real righteousness does not come from that kind of service, which only appeals to pride.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

If Jesus didn't die for our sins to pay our price, then we are all dead in our sins. Even you, for no amount of good works can cancel your debt. There is nothing you can give to God that he would be willing to ransom your soul for. You. Cannot. Save. Yourself. Without Jesus as your Savior you will find the second death waiting for you.

Serious question...
Can you mention ONE instance during Jesus reappearance (after his crucifixion) where mention was made about Jesus died for peoples sins?

Don't answer this by quoting from Paul or some unrelated verse, but just stick to the verses pertaining to his reappearance.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You discard everything else in the bible about Jesus being the servant of God and cling on to an isolated verse or two from Paul to present your case that Jesus is God.

You don't have to "discard" that since a lot of people were "servants" of God.
Taking a verse out of the OT about a servant of God and making it out to have to mean Jesus, that is more "ridiculous" to me.

What I find absurd is that Paul is someone who many christians themselves suspect of being a false apostle.

So, some people are not capable of understanding Paul. You may find those same people who think that are on their way out and have probably already left the church.

reply to post by adjensen

Who are these Christians who believe Paul to be a false Apostle? How about a source to a mainstream Christian denomination who "suspect him of being a false apostle"? Your claim of "many" would indicate that this movement isn't some lone nut, so what is your basis for that claim?

The christians I am talking about are not a "mainstream denomination"... but rather individuals who identify as christians, yet reject Paul as a false apostle on a purely biblical basis.

I'd recommend www.judaismvschristianity.com...
This guy makes a solid case against Paul and gives plenty of reasons why Paul is a false apostle.
Even if me and that guy disagree on everything else... we can agree on Paul.

Now, even if anti-Paul christians were a "mainstream denomination", you would bundle them in with the other "mainstream denominations" who you believe are wrong. (like Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, the LDS, the mormons, whoever else.)

reply to post by jmdewey60

You don't have to "discard" that since a lot of people were "servants" of God.
Taking a verse out of the OT about a servant of God and making it out to have to mean Jesus, that is more "ridiculous" to me.

I believe that the OT spoke of many servants. Jesus was one of them.

The christian approach to this is that every single mention of "servant" of God points to Jesus.
Yet some believe Jesus is also God.... and also the "servant of God".

However, in reality God and the servant of God are two seperate entities. This isn't even about theology anymore... its basic logic and common sense.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

It has no connection with Isaiah 42 where Kedar "shouts for joy"... and its people are brought out of the darkness and led into the light by the servant of God.

Verses 10 through 13 are a hymn, where it is differentiated by the verses before and after being a direct address by YHWH, and that part being addressing YHWH in the third person.
It is a new hymn to YHWH going forth as a warrior, and the servant, whoever that is, is left completely out.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

It is very specific about places, i.e - Kedar, the wilderness, Sela (the rock).

Kedar in this verse is not a place but a descriptive term (dark) of the people who inhabit towns and farmsteads.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


"One guy" is not "many Christians". I am asking you to evidence your claim that many Christians reject Paul, and pointing to a random person here or there does not substantiate that claim.

Provide that evidence, or withdraw the claim.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Serious question...
Can you mention ONE instance during Jesus reappearance (after his crucifixion) where mention was made about Jesus died for peoples sins?

He didn't have to since he made it clear enough that he was going to die and we would live by his dying, such as the metaphor of eating his flesh and drinking his blood.