Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

reply to post by adjensen


Don't forget they like to sight Isaiah 42, although we know who the "Elect One" truly is.

reply to post by stupid girl

. . . as finite beings, are incapable of understanding infinite concepts.

Our current lives as we know them are finite but the basic premise of Christianity from early on is the idea that we have eternal souls. That is a fact, and you can read that in the early fathers.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by stupid girl

 

. . . as finite beings, are incapable of understanding infinite concepts.

Our current lives as we know them are finite but the basic premise of Christianity from early on is the idea that we have eternal souls. That is a fact, and you can read that in the early fathers.

I'm pretty sure she means finite mental capacities.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

Jesus himself said that he is not worthy to untie the latchet of the shoes of the...

nope

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 3

these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God
John20

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Don't forget they like to sight Isaiah 42, although we know who the "Elect One" truly is

You expect the "servant of God" in Isaiah 42 to be Jesus. At the same time you believe Jesus is God.
Sorry, but the servant is NOT the same as the master.

Secondly, Isaiah 42 talks about a land outside Israel (Kedar and the wilderness) and the defeat of its idolaters. And we know that no biblical prophet ever achieved this in Kedar. The prophecy was fulfilled only with Mohammad.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Secondly, Isaiah 42 talks about a land outside Israel (Kedar and the wilderness) and the defeat of its idolaters. And we know that no biblical prophet ever achieved this in Kedar. The prophecy was fulfilled only with Mohammad.

It wasn't Muhammad.

Jeremiah 49:28

28 Here is what the Lord says about the land of Kedar and the kingdoms of Hazor. Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylonia, was planning to attack them.

The Lord says to the armies of Babylonia,
"Prepare for battle. Attack Kedar.
Destroy the people of the east.

As for the servant spoken about in Isaiah 42:1-9, this is clearly Jesus. The verses state that this servant will make everything right in EVERY nation and make everything right on earth, not just in Kedar. Also notice that these verses state that this servant will be the leader of Israel and make them a light unto the world.

Jesus appears as a man - a man-ifestation of God. All that is seen, heard, known is the manifestation of God, the glory of God.
The seer and hearer, knower in Jesus is God.

Jesus returned to source - he knew that the source of all is God so he looked within.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You expect the "servant of God" in Isaiah 42 to be Jesus. At the same time you believe Jesus is God.
Sorry, but the servant is NOT the same as the master.

Secondly, Isaiah 42 talks about a land outside Israel (Kedar and the wilderness) and the defeat of its idolaters. And we know that no biblical prophet ever achieved this in Kedar. The prophecy was fulfilled only with Mohammad.

If you continue on in Isaiah, you find in chapters 44 and 45 who that servant was, who was being described in chapter 42.

who commissions Cyrus, the one I appointed as shepherd to carry out all my wishes . . .

This is what the Lord says to his chosen one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I hold in order to subdue nations before him . . .

Cyrus built his empire by conquering first the Median Empire, then the Lydian Empire and eventually the Neo-Babylonian Empire. Either before or after Babylon, he led an expedition into central Asia, which resulted in major campaigns that were described as having brought "into subjection every nation without exception".
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by jmdewey60


Here's a 27 page thesis explaining who the servant is along with a detailed explanation on why it wasn't Israel or Cyrus.

Conclusion

The anonymous servant of Isaiah 42:1-9 can be neither Israel nor Cyrus nor any person other than the royal Davidic Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. This first servant song introduces the servant and highlights the successful completion of the task to which He is divinely called. Only a hint is given of the pathway of suffering that the servant must tread to arrive at the glory of a completed mission when He will have caused a righ- teous order to prevail on the earth. He will bring in a just order on the earth following His second advent at the time of the fulfill- ment of the promised New covenant for the nation Israel. Gen- tiles also will benefit from the worldwide blessings of this cove- nant and kingdom.

faculty.gordon.edu...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Great food for though, J. You do make sense when you made the "arm in water" analogy. S&F!

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Hi! What do you think about the OP?

reply to post by Deetermined

Here's a 27 page thesis explaining who the servant is along with a detailed explanation on why it wasn't Israel or Cyrus.

It looks like it is saying that they interpret Isaiah to fit a predetermined outcome.
ETA: or the thesis writer is saying that was the traditional way of doing it.
It may take a bit to figure out what his main argument is.
If you know, it would be helpful for you to point it out.
ETA 2: ok, I get it now, it is some dispensationalist rubbish, so my first comment stands, which is the interpretation is made to fit a predetermined conclusion.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

Jesus himself said that he is not worthy to untie the latchet of the shoes of the Prophet Muhammad and that God has given him three times of the glory that He has given to any of the prophets before him.

Huh? Where'd you hear this bullcrap? He said no such thing. John the Baptist said one was coming whose sandals he wasn't worthy to unlatch and he was talking about Jesus.

John 1:26-31

26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

Jesus Christ was and is God, but God as a God of love, is always two or more. It's a bit of a paradox really since Jesus appears, as far as I can tell, to have considered the heavenly father as the first/last cause, to both precede him and envelope him, and, to have sent him, according to a pattern laid down from before the very foundation of the world (before the formation of our solar system). See my signature for more on this.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You're Bible got it wrong. It is not John the Baptist who said that but Jesus, and he was also the voice crying in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord"..

Get your rabbis and priest to disclose the original Torah and the Gospel, then haply you might be guided rightly.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You're Bible got it wrong. It is not John the Baptist who said that but Jesus, and he was also the voice crying in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord"..

Get your rabbis and priest to disclose the original Torah and the Gospel, then haply you might be guided rightly.

You are referring to the gospel of Barnabas or some variant thereof, which is a fraud.

www.bible.ca...

Above all, the entire G.o.B. endeavours to show the superiority of Muhammad over Jesus.
Of the G.o.B. presents another Gospel narrative, i.e. another record of the life and ministry of Christ. On most doctrinal points it differs widely from the accepted Gospel account and in such a way that the Islamic version of Jesus is emphasized.
Jesus Christ is neither the Son of God, nor divine. He is rather: "the voice crying in the wilderness" to prepare the way for the coming Messiah, Muhammad. In the G.o.B. Christ is not the Messiah, but assumes instead a role similar to that of John the Baptist in our Gospel account. John the Baptist is not mentioned in the G.o.B. Consequently, the emphasis in the G.o.B. is on the coming of Muhammad, the saviour of the world (Chapter 96b and 97b, etc.). As might be expected, Christ was not crucified (in agreement with Sura 4:156), but instead Judas was killed in His place. During the period of His supposed arrest, Christ was hiding in a house in the garden of Gethsemane from where He was taken out by four (!) archangels (a much later tradition or legend) through the window and ascended into the third of seven heavens.

Sounds like they even got some of their ideas from daVinci's painting, "The Last Supper".. which is in reality, a type of blasphemous joke of sorts.

Here's more about what the Quran and the G.o.B. says about Jesus' cross/crucifixion

The Koran teaches that someone who looked like Jesus was crucified on the cross in a case of mistaken identity. Many Muslims appeal to the Gospel of Barnabas as proof that the unknown look alike was Judas Iscariot.

"they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them" (Qur'an 4:156)

"Verily I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that be was Jesus" (Gospel of Barnabas)

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You're Bible got it wrong. It is not John the Baptist who said that but Jesus, and he was also the voice crying in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord"..

Get your rabbis and priest to disclose the original Torah and the Gospel, then haply you might be guided rightly.

So after I pointed out that that is a fraud, you continue to cite it.

You are a liar. What is Allah gonna do to you now, since you're lying in his name?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Don't forget they like to sight Isaiah 42, although we know who the "Elect One" truly is

You expect the "servant of God" in Isaiah 42 to be Jesus. At the same time you believe Jesus is God.
Sorry, but the servant is NOT the same as the master.

Secondly, Isaiah 42 talks about a land outside Israel (Kedar and the wilderness) and the defeat of its idolaters. And we know that no biblical prophet ever achieved this in Kedar. The prophecy was fulfilled only with Mohammad.

I do not expect you to understand the bible, but it says what it says and i have shown you folks over and over and over.

Philipians 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Name above all names = Yahweh. Now lets see the hebrew bible.

Isaiah 45:20-25

20 “Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21 Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the Lord all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’”

In Philipians 2 it is to Jesus every knees bows and every tongue takes an oath, in Isaiah 45 it's Yahweh. The simplest answer is the most truest answer. Jesus is Yahweh. The Israelites rejected Yahweh at Mt. Sinai, they wanted a flesh and blood king like the other nations had instead of a Spirit King. Yahweh gave them exactly what they asked for 2000 years ago. The Israelites wanted a King they could admire (idolatry), so to keep them from sinning, he gave them himself to admire. Are you getting it yet? Doubtful :shk:. The only way they could have a King and admire him and it not be idolatry was if that King was God himself, that's the only way having a Messiah to worship that would be Kosher. The New Testament is the answer to the question the Tenach posed.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Very good explanation, I'll buy it.

What's incredible, imho, is the TIMING of Jesus' coming, and of his great work - which does reveal that God knew even beforehand precisely what would happen, and only God can know that kind of thing, and shape history over centuries and even millenia, unto a single hour..

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

lonewolf19792000 - I would like to invite you to contribute a first rate post to the thread in my signature, pulling out all the best Bible quotes, as much to show the same God (in spirit) running through the whole of the Bible from the OT to the new, as to reveal God's "superdeterministic" nature meaning able to work a work within history, from outside of history, in such a way that everything happens precisely according to plan, and in perfect alignment with historical causation such that when he enters the frame as a human being, he's right on time (see the Real Star of Bethlehem video series first).

Thanks in advance if you see to it to make that contribution..

NAM

P.S. If you DO take on this assignment, please don't lecture me and try to prove me wrong in my thread and if possible stick to the assignment of proving God's sovereignty in time and history and that the same God foreshadowed in the OT, and framed, enters that same frame in the NT. Thanks.