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Two Left Thunderfeet - Athiesm is not Rational

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posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 08:43 PM
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The video below is the topic of this thread. What follows is my answer to Thunderfoot. PPSIMMONS does a great job with all of their videos.

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Here is someone I would love to debate on ATS. I think the Christian apologist in the video does a good job in this by keeping the reasoning at the root of truth. Thunderfoot wants to expand beyond the root where he has room to wiggle. The apologist demands that he first answer the root of the debate between existence by design and existence by accident. Thunderfoot then heads toward philosophy for a gate out of his question to be answered. What he fails to mention is the conclusion that philosophy continues to suggest as the only answer.

Looking for another way out of the question, he mentions two aspects of quantum mechanics that destroy his notion that a designer is absent the thing that is clearly designed. The worst place he could have traveled is collapsing wave function. In every model of collapsing wave function, quantum mechanics is shown to demand an observer. In the correct view of quantum mechanics--the Copenhagen Interpretation--a dimensional inverse, apart from the observer making choices, is devoid of actions with purpose. Matter does not create consciousness, consciousness creates matter as the thing collapsed into form with mass.

He then mentions information theory. This is another point that destroys the claim that a possibility might exist for us to be random accidents. With information entropy, we know that bits of information degrade over time. This is why your CD lasts longer than your 8-track did. With the human condition, we suffer the same problem except for one point of design. Reproduction is a feature of design and choice to survive. Information can be saved, but not without desire to make the choice. No amount of reason or theory will show how accidental life conceived the choice that surviving is better than not surviving. This simply falls on its face before it begins when information entropy is considered. Reproduction would have needed to be the first feature life developed.

Also, we now know that all energy in the universe is information. This is a new discovery. This one point makes it clear that we are designed inside an image of energy, just as Genesis 1:27 states. Loenard Susskind can demonstrate in THIS VIDEO. None of us holds the intellect to deny what Susskind demonstrates from current theory. And we are not just hearing from Susskind on this topic of a holographic universe. More and more mainstream scientists are noticing what the research suggests: We are designed to the last degree of particle and wave collapse. Not only this, but Paul Dirac's relativistic quantum mechanical wave equation allows us to understand where the last particle and wave to be discovered originates. We are a product of streaming information from another dimension. The Higgs Boson suggest this outcome. Light is not a duality, it's a trinity. Particle, Wave and Consciousness. The same trinity of light is the same Trinity of God. Father is Light. Son is Word/Wave. Holy Spirit is the Great I AM of originating consciousness. The three aspects of light are the three persons of the Godhead. The root expresses to everything we know by Word / Wave / Information.

At the heart of all reality, we have information. The acorn has the enfolded oak tree within. Design starts with programming and programming is Word and Energy. Not only is there clear design, but the purpose of the design has an end goal in mind. Again, this is design that is not selfish. As an ultimate evidence, God also shows us the final collapsing of wave function by revealing the future to the end of time. We experience it currently approaching. The Law of Inverse Squares allows us to see the singularity approaching, just as the Bible said it would happen. It's a circle, just like all of nature. To know the End, you must know the Beginning. The beginning is information in the form of God's Word that spoke the universe into existence.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

If Thunderfoot ever reads this, please debate me on this forum.




edit on 25-7-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



Looking for another way out of the question, he mentions two aspects of quantum mechanics that destroy his notion that a designer is absent the thing that is clearly designed. The worst place he could have traveled is collapsing wave function. In every model of collapsing wave function, quantum mechanics is shown to demand an observer. In the correct view of quantum mechanics--the Copenhagen Interpretation--a dimensional inverse, apart from the observer making choices, is devoid of actions with purpose. Matter does not create consciousness, consciousness creates matter as the thing collapsed into form with mass.


Just like the concept of God, the whole consciousness causes collapse thing is unfalsifiable. It can't be debated without the one who supports it widening the goalposts.

Cool debate though. I'm not a big fan of Thunderfoot.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:40 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Ok...gonna jump in here...EnochWasRight, your man Eric Hovind during this "interview" didn't let "Thunderfoot" get a word in. Eric Hovind would not let him speak...

In answer to the question "Is it impossible for God to exist?"

Of course it's not "impossible". But, you have to ask yourself, "What is "God"?" Is God an all-seeing supreme being that continuously tells us what is right and what is wrong? Is God the driving power in humanity? Or is it humanity that drives the "God"?

In case you couldn't tell, I'm atheist...and I have no proof of "God" other that a book that was written thousands of years ago to tell me otherwise...

Try as you might, I will not believe in something I cannot see/feel/touch/taste...

edit on 25-7-2012 by edaced4 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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And how is "Atheism not rationale"?



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:10 PM
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God cannot be defined. Everything you experience in this so called reality is merely a reflection of god and his gift to you in your life. There is a reason you exist, just as there is a reason a grain of sand exists. Go read the book the alchemist. The male brain thinking can trip folks up when they need straight lines and cut and dry answers. Feel for it.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by edaced4
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Ok...gonna jump in here...EnochWasRight, your man Eric Hovind during this "interview" didn't let "Thunderfoot" get a word in. Eric Hovind would not let him speak...

In answer to the question "Is it impossible for God to exist?"

Of course it's not "impossible". But, you have to ask yourself, "What is "God"?" Is God an all-seeing supreme being that continuously tells us what is right and what is wrong? Is God the driving power in humanity? Or is it humanity that drives the "God"?

In case you couldn't tell, I'm atheist...and I have no proof of "God" other that a book that was written thousands of years ago to tell me otherwise...

Try as you might, I will not believe in something I cannot see/feel/touch/taste...

edit on 25-7-2012 by edaced4 because: (no reason given)


Wifi cannot be seen, felt, touched, or tasted, yet we know it exists because it is designed from what is hidden to our senses. At the root of wifi is word carried by wave, yet it is useless apart from the observer that uses it and the language it speaks. We could imagine other origins, but why would we? To the creator, its elementary. DNA is the same word/wave collapsed by the observer. It mirrors its source. Nothing in nature can rise above its source, yet we are Bio mechanical tools with consciousness surrounded by the resource that was used to render particle and wave to form with sentience. Is a tree the acorn or the roots and trunk ? Neither. A tree is the information that rendered the image.

Hebrews 11

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Information is not visible unless expressed in a symbol with meaning. Meaning is derived by conscious comparison when the wave is collapsed to make a choice. Nature verifies the mirror of its origin from its source of WORD in three ways. History, the Bible and the approaching future match. As they cycle forward, we verify the evidence as a match. Atheism denies the evidence or what it implies.

We know wifi and the DNA in the acorn are the same information collapse by comparison. As above, so below. We are a mirror in an image of God. Genesis 1:27 states clearly that we are in an image.

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Image of what? God. How is the image projected? Light in Time and Space in the form of matter.

Genesis 1:1

In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).

It takes more faith to believe that the WORD of God is an accident than it does to believe that we are designed by a blueprint that is left for us to discover.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Only 20 percent of reality can be measured. The other 80 percent is dark matter and is only known from the rest. The 20 perscent we can measure is still a mystery. The platform of Atheism discounts a Creator. To say that the possibility exists discounts the claim to be an Atheist. The least logical choice is Atheism when confronted with even a meager bit of evidence from me. The most logical choice is to compare what is said by God against what we can observe. They match. Not only do they match, the Bible was in the know first. Not only this, but it shows us the collapsing wave as it approaches with detail and imagery beyond our reasoning of it by drawing the future into the past. We see the future before it happens.

Wifi exists because a conscious being produced it by intellect and sentience through engineering. Where is WIFI if we do not not exist? Can we doubt our own existence just because WIFI is not seen? Does this imply that WIFI produced us? No. It produces our word as information in a mirror. Didn't God say that in the first place about the Image he produced?

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Why is this so significant? As the creator of the computer, mankind sees both sides of the image produced on the screen. If mankind could spend 1000 more years developing the technology, would it be possible to produce an artificial life inside the computer and move our consciousness into the machine to see from both sides? YES!!!!!!! We know this is possible because our science is leading us that direction. This IMPLIES that it has already been done. God produced us INSIDE his image. We are his image as well. Notice that the verse says it two ways. The Bible also says that The Great I AM of God (HIS SPIRIT) is with us here on this side, yet HE is not here. Neither are we for that matter.

When you look in a mirror, do you see the real you or an image of you? If we are the image, what does that imply? Does this match the science of memory locations being collapsed from memory of the archetype in the machine?

Yes. What we observe is what we create by the same process. We are a mirror.

1 Corinthians 13

Read closely.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

What happens when God pulls us out of the image and shows us where we are? He sees both sides, just as we would if we could move our consciousness into the image of the Sims. Think it through. Evidence suggests a creator in all directions you look.

Of course, you can just be an Atheist and say its not possible.


edit on 25-7-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:41 PM
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He wouldn't let Thunderf00t get a word in. Shutting up someone in a debate and pretending that they didn't answer the question is not success (winning the debate).

It is a malformed question because it cannot be answer. This is like saying, W+X=A, right? How could you answer a yes or no to a question like that?

How could you answer what 'percentage' of information people have, if, you don't know how much information exists in the universe.


That is also a malformed question. If he would have said "10%", that would be like saying "humans have 10% of an X amount of information", but how could you know that if you don't know how much "X" (quantity of information) there is?

If anyone was actually deceived by that video, because they didn't see from Thunderf00t's side, to gain full perspective of both sides, here is the full video:




By the way, I am not an atheist, so I cannot be accused of being "biased". Eric did not make sense most of the time, but he did have a FEW good points, I admit.

I totally disagree with Thunderf00t's stance on Solipsism - that we cannot know that existence (universe) is real or not. If the only thing we have is existence, wouldn't it be pointless to say existence isn't real since we have nothing else to compare it to?
edit on 25-7-2012 by arpgme because: more detail



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by edaced4
And how is "Atheism not rationale"?



An Atheist cannot claim God in any way. A Creator is out of the question apart from admitting intelligent design behind life. Admitting a Creator admits perfection in law. Why? Nature only gives. The highest law is love. Love can only give, suffering forward for the whole. This is the only way to reverse entropy in information and go against entropy in nature. Reproduction is the miracle of two becoming one and repeating. All of nature is this example of sacrifice from birth, development, death and then to life again. Does a tree pollute?

Can it take without giving more than it removed? A tree is a technology produced by Word. Inside an acorn, there is a 75 foot oak tree enfolded by information. It expresses to form from information. Nature, by itself, does not demonstrate the ability to do this in conjunction with the community of other expressions of life needed to make it happen. Consciousness is necessary to collapse the wave of information into particle. We KNOW THIS!! It's produced on multiple levels. This alone suggests design.

Beyond the levels of necessity in nature, we can clearly see a pattern of development in all forms of life and beyond all forms of life. Apart form the sun and moon, no life is possible on earth. Two become one to form the cycles of solar radiation needed to combine elements on earth for life. Hydrogen is one proton and one neutron in a balanced state of positive and negative. Two become one to produce the energy necessary for our life on earth. A husband and wife come together to produce a third from the union. Sperm and egg do the same. The baby develops in the womb, in darkness from the light outside. When the baby is born, it repeats the process. The Bible says that we have a soul and a spirit. When the two become one by love, they are said to merge and transcend the womb of the Earth. Are we to stop at the sperm and egg and say no more is possible? Please!!! Use some commons sense.


edit on 25-7-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


This is why we are better to debate here by words on a page. I would love to meet Thunderfoot on ATS and debate him.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Atheists are not claiming God in any way. They just don't believe he exists.

Why is it you atheist bashers can't understand that? And why can't you understand that having no belief in the existence of God is not a bad thing?

If you're really truly interested in converting atheists, I present to you this video:



But I'm sure you'll just ignore it or dismiss it in some way.

I really wish you guys would stop demonizing atheists. It does not win you any converts.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
Atheists are not claiming God in any way. They just don't believe he exists.

Why is it you atheist bashers can't understand that? And why can't you understand that having no belief in the existence of God is not a bad thing?


I suspect that it has a lot to do with evangelical atheists, like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, who feel the need to promote their "lack of belief" to the rest of the world, wrapped in a "if you disagree with us, you're delusional" placard.

Personally, I have no problem with atheists. I think it's a valid position, and I suspect that, for the person who simply says "sorry, I don't believe", I think that God, if he exists, can work around that.

But there are other atheists, including those noted above, who proclaim that not only are they right, but that anyone who disagrees with them is delusional, a mental deficient. And a theist who dares to tell their children what they believe is guilty of child abuse.

Do you seriously not understand why a theist might take issue with that? If you don't like Christians railing against atheists, maybe you should think about trying to reign in some of your out of control evangelists?

Secularists are frequently admonishing Christians for not condemning demented "Christian" groups like Westboro Baptist -- when are you going to condemn your own version of them?



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 06:46 AM
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Originally posted by edaced4
And how is "Atheism not rationale"?



Let me address this. Because in order to affirm the negative position you'd need infinite knowledge. Then it becomes self-refuting at that point. You'd need infinite knowledge to affirm there exists no entity in any part of the known or unknown universe with infinite knowledge. When Bertrand Russell a very intelligent man grasped this he did a quick two-step and changed his position to Agnostic. Which is simple to prove, one needs only to demonstrate they don't know.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 06:46 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


I don't care one iota about religion but I'll put this to them. If religious people believe that we exist now and that we will go to another place when we die then does it not follow reason, logic and common sense, that we must have been somewhere before we came here??



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by learnatic
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


I don't care one iota about religion but I'll put this to them. If religious people believe that we exist now and that we will go to another place when we die then does it not follow reason, logic and common sense, that we must have been somewhere before we came here??



Not if creation was the first cause.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by EvilSadamClone
 


The video you posted asks for any one of the following items to be shown. Keep in mind that faith must not based on fact or it is not faith. Faith is a requirement from God. No bit of information can be verified as fact or faith would be nullified. The reasoning behind faith is to keep duplicity from being a factory in belief. If a person seeks God for reward, then they are really after the reward. If a person seeks God to avoid punishment, they are really after their own preservation. This is duplicity. For a choice to be genuine, it must be free from duplicity that is founded on fact rather than a search in faith. This is basic to all religious AND SCIENTIFIC belief. How can it also be central to belief in science?

Science is based on measuring a constantly changing dynamic of matter in changed states. No piece of matter has ever been the same or in the same location twice. The Earth moves and has never been in one place more than once. All matter is uniquely in one state for only the moment it exists in that state. Transition is constant and no observation has ever seen anything except expected repetition according to laws that a re fixed. Fixed laws must rest on a governor and the ONLY THING that can be observed to be constant are the laws themselves. This is the only central truth science can say for sure. That which is governed must have a governor.

1) Verified Prophecy

Damascus will be utterly destroyed. It is the oldest continuously occupied city in the world. Watch the news then believe when it happens. The people of Israel and their history is verified. No other nation has EVER returned to their land after exile in the history of humanity. The fact that prophecy tags the date to within one year of the Babylonian exile is beyond reasoning. It happened to the year.

Here is the link I did that shows evidence for prophecy being perfectly rendered to the year of exile and the year the nation was restored. We can verify that the prophecy was written before the event.

THREAD WITH EVIDENCE

2) Scientific Knowledge Out of Place

I have already demonstrated this in this thread. Quantum Mechanics is shown correctly in the Bible, even going so far as to reveal the missing element that science misses about light. Light is not a duality, it's a trinity. Light is particle, wave and consciousness. The Copenhagen Interpretation is the correct view from all the theories. Matter does not produce consciousness. Consciousness produces matter. The Leonard Susskind Video that I linked shows that energy is information. If this is true, then we live in a hologram produced by what Genesis 1 says.

Genesis 1:1

In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).

Because science requires faith, both the Bible and science are matched only when the correct view of Quantum Microcosm is fully know. Until then, it is hidden.

Hebrews 11

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

3) Miracles

No proof comes to those who doubt. The believer sees miracles every day.

4) Aliens

Genesis 6:1-5 - The account of the Sumerian fallen beings.

Enoch I - A description of the hidden Watchers of mankind.

Jasher 4 - DNA Manipulation is outlined in this chapter.

There you go. All of what you require from the video is outlined. There is MUCH more to be said, but his should get you started.


edit on 26-7-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by learnatic
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


I don't care one iota about religion but I'll put this to them. If religious people believe that we exist now and that we will go to another place when we die then does it not follow reason, logic and common sense, that we must have been somewhere before we came here??



Yes. The Bible tells the entire story. It hints at the truth to allow us to figure it out. The fallen beings mentioned in Genesis 6 are also mentioned in Jude 1 as those who left their first dwelling in heaven to enter the daughters of men. The book of Enoch then describes the entire picture of the principalities and powers that are at work to raise mankind to the status we are designed for. The universe is a womb for life to develop before transitioning between material and spiritual kingdoms. Training and refinement of sentient consciousness is a prerequisite. We come to find out that the universe is filled with families, rulers and principalities. The Bible reveals this. The goal of humanity is to end the error that occurred in the universe when parts of God's creation rebelled. Humanity is caught in the middle of this transition, but not without a long-range purpose from God.

Mankind is the crowning creation of God. We were created to rule the universe. When the angels (Servants) of God realized that man would be over the angels and free, they were jealous. This caused the rebellion. Once man was seeded on Earth, the leader of the rebellion was placed here in the garden. Mankind was temped by this being. God knew this would happen, but gave mankind the chance to make the choice.

The conjecture part comes in when we try to envision what the purpose of this was for. We can answer this with some confidence when we read this verse.

1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The universe is created to encompass time, space, matter and energy. Reality is an image. What is an image? The image is the rendering of the original into a reflected form. When God says this:

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

He is saying that we are artificial. Not only are we artificially made, but Christ is the first image that was used as the archetype of the final product. Christ has the Holy Consciousness of God. Christ is the first image of God, therefore He IS God. The Trinity is Father (LIGHT), Son (WORD/WAVE) and Holy Spirit (Consciousness). In other words, Jesus is God on this side of the image. Christ is the image of God here. We are copies. What is the difference with us? Simple. We cannot be God. We must be separate to be different. To be separate, we must learn like children to find the Holy Spirit for ourselves. How is this accomplished?

There are four baptisms to overcome to find the final baptism of spirit.

Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand."

Earth - We are planted into the Garden. We are not rooted in the soil like plants or in a fixed domain like fish. Instead, we can occupy all domains. This autonomy requires that we overcome these domains by hardships. The wilderness we occupy was provided to allow our growth by experience.

Air - We are given the Word of God as a guide to the wilderness. This word is also the language we learn and master. Meaning ultimately comes when we decipher the inner symbols of nature and overcome our ignorance and pride of the outer world. Meaning springs from the root, just like a plant.

Water - We are baptized into the Water (Immersion into Reality). The water cleanses the temple (body). The temple is where the sacrifice is made. This temple houses the spirit of God, along with our soul. We are to overcome as we are born again. "You must be born again." Plants die and the seed perpetuates to the next generation. Producing fruit ensures seed for the next crop.



Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Fire - We are finally baptized by Trials. The Flaming Sword of God cuts away pride and protects the tree of life. The tree of life is DNA. We light the fire we burn by. We can also put out the fire with the water.

Spirit - After overcoming the first four baptisms, we are then baptized by the Spirit of God. Jesus is necessary for us to be marked by the spirit for salvation from the Fire. The water and blood of Christ brings salvation from the corruption of the elements.

One last thing. If we are inside an image, then we are not the real us here in this reality. Why? If you look in a mirror, you know that you are real and the image in the mirror is only the reflection of you. Right now, you are INSIDE the image of God and you ARE the image of God. His spirit resides in you, but the image you occupy is not you here. You are on the other side with God. He can see both sides. You can only see this side.

1 Corinthians 13

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I can help you see, but faith is the only way to know for sure. God will show you if you only believe and seek. knock and the door is opened to you. Christ is the Good Shepherd, the Holy Image of God here on Earth.


edit on 26-7-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)




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