Opinions on my next handgun purchase?

reply to post by article


I'm sorry, but I have to ask when I hear people with responses like yours. What is your background and where did you get your information regarding terminal ballistics?

reply to post by EyesWideShut


8 years in the United States Army and 7 years in Law Enforcement.

I dont wanna hear specs about this and that on a 9mm, because I'm "schooled" enough. Ive used one often enough to know just what they're capable of.

So what part of the 9mm do you find that I'm missguiding you about, marine?

As a matter of fact.. I had to add this.

I have a marine standing at my side right now who totaly agrees with me. So Im guessing you're basing whatever on a matter of choice.

Ive had enough training with bullistics to know enough in my 48 years.

what do you have?

better yet.. at least clerify what you're refering to.

reply to post by article

I don't care much for the 9mm being used for CCW , except it is very accurate.

reply to post by mtnshredder


Extreemly!

Dont get me wrong. I have a 9mm carbine M16 replica. Pretty rifle. It reminds me of army days. It's damn fun to shoot, but I cant do so very accuratly anymore. The sites are such that, I am no longer able to see through the site without seeing an obstruction (quarter moon black out) since Ive had some damage done to my right eye over the last years. I love the sound and the "softness" of a 9mm, but not something I keep on my for protections sake. I have a SW 357 with 2 reloaders (6 shooter) that stays in my car. I do have various other sized calibers, even a .23 and a .32 to play with. My throwaways! lol (just kidding...) and a few other rifles and shotguns.

stll a pretty piece. Not a whole lotta recoil on them and great for beginners.

Invest in a .45 ACP. And my vote on a manufacturer is Sig Sauer. I'm Sig all the way. Although if you want a handgun that focuses on cosmetic attractiveness (something pretty), purchase a Kimber.

reply to post by Katharos62191


Katharos, I'm sorry to hear about those tragedies in your past. My sister also had her place broken into by thugs with crowbars, but she is a very resourceful individual and jumped out her second-story window into some bushes. The police reports say they were after her to rape her. Both my sister and I are very good at responding to these kinds of situations, because when we were little, our dad got shot by a gunman who went on a shooting rampage at the hospital where he worked.

So we were exposed to this type of thing at a young age and that has the benefit of taking away any fear or helplessness that might otherwise occur when being faced by such a thing.

I am impressed, you are a very sharp individual, when I read the few posts that you write they have a lot of content and often surprise me, I didn't know you were against gun control! The world is becoming a complicated place. I think there are many sides to this issue and many lives could be affected.

As for the OP, I really like your thread title! Star and flag! And I didn't know there was a weaponry and tactics forum, ha ha! Wtf!!

reply to post by article


I don't care who you have next to you honestly, I wanted to get a frame of reference of how I should deal with you. You have a law enforcement background and time in the Army, that's outstanding. When I got out of the Corps, I did a few years as C/O working in my local Sheriff's Office @ midsized NY/Metro Correctional facility. I got hit during the layoffs, I went back to school for nursing & took the test for my Local Fire Department, I alternate between time on the Engine and time in the EMS Rig when I'm working for the city & Time in the ER when I'm not working for the city.

I'm explaining this to you so we know where eachother stand.

Question #1, How many people have you shot to see the actual terminal ballistics of pistol rounds?

I'm not trying to be snarky, I just want to see If you know something I don't know to be so bold with your statements. I've shot Zero people with a pistol so I can't comment on the first hand effects of terminal ballistics regarding pistol ammo. I can tell you that the city I work for has had 8 reported shootings this month and 3 homicides. That's so far & the months not over yet, and that's pretty light for summertime with so many people on the street.

What I can tell you from treating many patients that have been shot both on scene and in the ER is, THERE ISN'T A BIG DIFFERENCE REGARDING THE EFFECTS OF TERMINAL BALLISTICS IN PISTOL ROUNDS. I've never seen a GSW and been able to tell the caliber by the hole, I don't think you'll find anyone that can.

By the Numbers

Speer Gold Dot 124gr 9mm +p
1220 FPS @ The Muzzle
410 Ft-Lbs Energy@ The Muzzle

Speer Gold Dot 230gr .45 ACP
890 FPS@ The Muzzle
404 Ft-Lbs Energy@ The Muzzle

Now that's Just Paper Numbers...Simply Physics, it doesn't take into account barriers such as auto glass, car doors etc.






FBI Ballistic Gel Results



Recovered Bullets


At the end of the day there are only two ways to stop someone, either put a lot of holes in them and wait for their heart to lose enough blood pressure that it can no longer send oxygenated blood to the brain and they lose consciousness. That takes time and the person can still shoot you from the time they get hit to the time they bleed out.

Or a CNS Shot, A Round to the Brain Box which is lights out, or sending rounds through the upper chest and severing the spinal cord, they'll be conscious, but no longer a threat due to paralysis.

SHOT PLACEMENT is what will see you through.

With modern JHP's being fairly equal across service pistol grade calibers, I'd go with what I can shoot the fastest with the most accuracy & what gives me the most firepower (Rd count)

My 1911 is 8+1
My Sig Sp2022 & G19 are 15+1

reply to post by darkbake


That is crazy you had to learn how to handle intense situations like that from such a young age. It does make you stronger though.

Thanks! There is so much good information here hopefully it will be helpful to others as well. I didn't know about this forum either till a couple of months ago I caught an interesting thread on the front page. Then I proceeded to look through tons of threads

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
By the Numbers

Speer Gold Dot 124gr 9mm +p
1220 FPS @ The Muzzle
410 Ft-Lbs Energy@ The Muzzle

Speer Gold Dot 230gr .45 ACP
890 FPS@ The Muzzle
404 Ft-Lbs Energy@ The Muzzle

At the end of the day there are only two ways to stop someone, either put a lot of holes in them and wait for their heart to lose enough blood pressure that it can no longer send oxygenated blood to the brain and they lose consciousness. That takes time and the person can still shoot you from the time they get hit to the time they bleed out.

Or a CNS Shot, A Round to the Brain Box which is lights out, or sending rounds through the upper chest and severing the spinal cord, they'll be conscious, but no longer a threat due to paralysis.

SHOT PLACEMENT is what will see you through.

With modern JHP's being fairly equal across service pistol grade calibers, I'd go with what I can shoot the fastest with the most accuracy & what gives me the most firepower (Rd count)

My 1911 is 8+1
My Sig Sp2022 & G19 are 15+1

edit on 27-7-2012 by EyesWideShut because: (no reason given)

Fortunatly I do read responces most of the way before i respond. I dont take your responce as snarky... now. I did when I began reading. I actually would have come off like:

Deal with me? Why on earth would you need to know "how to deal with me"? Im that important huh?

But once I actually saw you were simply trying to see where I came from... I'll retract and try again

So onto.. My bold statement..

If you want to compare BBguns to pistols.. you're barking up the wrong tree. This is something for the trainers more so than for me. Ballistics isnt something I'm all that great at, but I can tell you a few things I've learned.


How many people have I shot.. Hmm... I dont brag about numbers here and I definatly DONT like talking about them.

- I know what an M14 looks like going in and comming out the back. Not a pretty sight. I understand your ballistic charts, but when you're looking at a body.. I'm sorry, I can tell the diffrence in the power of the gun... The bullet size not so much. You are correct, in that case it is hard to tell. BUT, when you're focusing what kind of gun did that damage, you do notice diffrences. An M14 makes a very small entry but one hell of an exit wound, especially when you're taking someones spinal chord with it. True story.. Happened in front of me.

- I know what a 9mm ruger sr9 can do when 9 shots are fired into the chest of a 325lbs man who had been drinking all night and topped it off with a bit of crack before he and his counsin went at each other gangster style. True story. I was on that call. It started at a bar and ended at their mom's house. hell of a way to show your love to your family. Have a cop pump a full magazine of rounds into her son then another cop pump a full more into him to make sure he was going to go down and stay down. Sad thing is.. We could have let the guy sleep it off and no one would have been the wiser the next day.. Instead.. I got the pleasure of watching what a total of 14 bullets can do to an oversized drunk and high man. He was black too, so we were probably considered racist after that as well. So yeah, lots to live with there..

Which one killed him? It might have been all of them, but it certainly wasn't the 9mm that stopped him. It was the 1st .45 round that put him to one knee, and another that put him on his face.



I watched a guy running away, get hit in the hip with a 9mm, who continued to limp away. Though, he didnt get very far. I also saw what my black talon round did to a fellas shoulder, comming from my 357. Lets just say, that was probably 13 years ago and Im sure he's still going through therapy. Personaly, I feel it's not the size of the hole, but how much power is behind the bullet to suck as much OUT of you as possible, and through the smallest possible.

Tell me.. How many crackheads have you shot? Fair is fair.
- When I went into the P.A., all of our lessons were video, not some know it all instructor... Hey, not picking at your background... I had one too. Apparently I have learned alot more since.. Dont get me wrong. Ive learned a hell of alot from Uncle Sam. I know stuff I wouldnt have never imagined. but... Uncle Sam wasnt the only one that taught me stuff when it came to personal weapons. Weapons of war... The millitary cant be touched.

But hey... You keep on thinking a 9mm is a valid defence and I'll keep telling you that I honestly believe you're wrong based on my first hand experiance alone.

The 9mm is a weapon of accuracy, not power. It has very little knockdown power when compared~

reply to post by EyesWideShut


Btw.. Thanks for the civil responce. I expected as much comming from a marine.. Even though you guys can be a pervervbial pain in the know it all ass... I deal with the likes of youz daily. 1 Army guy in a room of X marines can be fun. It's more fun when you're much older than them and you can show your ass now and then. Of course, you devil dogs pick on us army more than it's ever warranted, but we certainly return the favor in kind.

reply to post by article


I've already stated that I've shot ZERO people with a pistol, I probably have dealt with more shooting victims than you have though. Bullets do funny things when they hit people, and people don't react to being shot as they should sometimes.

You mentioned a story about a man getting hit with a 7.62x51 round, a full caliber rifle round has FAR more energy than a pistol round, there is a big difference in power from a 5.56, 7.62x39 & .308. You can tell by the size of the casings, obviously bigger bullet + higher velocity = more energy. A 9mm has a case capacity of 13gr, a .45 has .25gr and a 7.62x51 has a case volume of 56gr. The power difference between an intermediate cartridge like a .556 or x39 ak round is nowhere near the energy of a service pistol round, much less a .308

At the end of the day, the .45 isn't a magical round.... But I respect your choice to use it as you wish! =)

This guy took 17 .40's to the chest and still returned fire, this is why failure drills need to be taught in the Academy.



BG Gets Shot 22 Times by a .40 with 17 COM shots, but still returns fire on Officer

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

Originally posted by article
reply to post by EyesWideShut

 

Btw.. Thanks for the civil responce. I expected as much comming from a marine.. Even though you guys can be a pervervbial pain in the know it all ass... I deal with the likes of youz daily. 1 Army guy in a room of X marines can be fun. It's more fun when you're much older than them and you can show your ass now and then. Of course, you devil dogs pick on us army more than it's ever warranted, but we certainly return the favor in kind.

It's part of the brotherhood, It's hard for me to tell on here if I'm dealing with a kid that plays too much Xbox, or someone that's actually "Been There & Done That" as yourself. That's why I asked about your background, Trust me the response was tailored to your background, If it was a kid I wouldn't have taken the time to post everything I did, I would have said "You're wrong...go kick rocks!" But you got some life experience that can be learned from... that's stuff that should be shared!

Stay Safe

My opinion on your next handgun....

Dont buy one, simple

reply to post by EyesWideShut


Oh no... My round of choice is a .357, I love the SCREAM of power when that trigger is pulled back. Never have I felt such power in an empty gun.... Ok.. M2 .50 cal... There isnt much that'll beat it. If it were legal, I'd have one of those babies mounted to my hood!

Now the M14 cituation. That was barely a kid. I think he was about 16 or 17 at the time. Same age as my oldest little brother (and a friend of) at the time. Kid had gf problems, and I guess couldnt handle it. Though Im confused because they were never broken up.. Just argued. But Im not sure over what. coulda been sex related, cheating... I dont know.

Kid ran with the rifle. We had to chase and draw down for the safety of others. I think the kid saw this as though we were going to take him out... but it's just for safety so the guy dont take anyone out with him.

he turned around, for a second I thought, he's going to shoot at us.. but he didnt. he pulled the mussle up to his heart and pulled. The first time I realised in my life that blood doesnt "splatter" out of you like on TV. It sprays out of you like a fine mist so much that a gentle wind will carry it a little ways.

But yeah, bullets does some very crazy stuff to a body. Hence why the .22 is so deadly.. It can enter the body in your leg and come out of your heart. Those lil bastards travel in a body very easily. Not to mention, there arnt very many vests that will stop a .22 round.

This reminds me. We used to take a jacket and put it on a 50bbls drum and shoot it with various rounds to see what would do what kind of damage. Powder of course, plays a roll. You can take a 22 or ice pick and put an easy hole anywhere. take an AK that can shoot through 7 layers of brick and it wont even make a dent. Shotgun slug... close... Either way, I DONT WANT to EVER be hit with a slug, vest or no vest... I watch these things cave in those same 50bbl drums. With a vest! lol

No worries brother. Im in a constant fun loving pissing contest with these jokers on a daily basis. And yes, i understand. I find it hard to know who I am addressing here often. My lack of ability to spell perfectly, I'm sure, makes me seem young.. Which I guess is cool comming from someone near his 50s. heh

But yes sir, there is that respect there and it's honestly one of the things that leaves me hope for this country. It shows that there really is civility in our country and if that's the case, we'll be ok.

I appreciate that you took all of this into consideration and I agree. One thing the millitary taught me was, sometimes you have to explain something 3 diffrent ways because 3 diffrent people didnt get it. What they didnt say was... Sometimes you can explain it 5 times, and someone will always miss what you're saying every time.

But at least, in that 5 times, 5 other have heard, and I guess that's the point.

Ya know, in 2 of those cases where death was the result, I did not have a hand in pulling any trigger, fortunatly. I had to do CPR on an old woman who died with her eyes wide open in front of me... the most horrible memory I had... untill that kid. Some things stay with you in small ways... Some things you simply cant get out of your dreams. For the woman, it wasnt the death.. it was her open eyes.. looking into nothing, but still looking... The expression on her face, lost but something....

On the kid, his name was Chad. Good kid, just hurt at an early age and like most of us at any age, didnt know how to take what was handed to him. Thats why his death sticks with me. Something so minor, so simple, but to him, it destroyed his world. Thats why I worry about some of the guys here, reading all of this stuff. My heart goes out more so to those who hurt than anything else. Any degree of pain can be fatal when someone takes it to heart.

But thanks for alowing me to throw that out there. I havent mentioned it in some many years, and it is kinda therapudic. Lifts a slight load but not a whole lot of one. but still, the loss of burden, no matter how small, is life throwing off a world of grief.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
My opinion on your next handgun....

Dont buy one, simple

And miss out on all the comming zombie fun? Never!

reply to post by article


I relate man, it's hard dealing with patients/victims. I've had people code on me and it doesn't affect me anymore unless they're kids or young adults. It's not that I'm cold I just honestly couldn't do my job if I got personal with every patient I dealt with, I'm personable with them, I call them by name...but you have to detatch yourself emotionally because you'd be a basketcase after your 1st month if you didn't. The first time you have someone code on you that you did everything you could to save, you realize that you're not in control. You can do everything right, and still lose.

I'm Agnostic, (I believe in a God, I just know you can't prove it) and I've actually prayed to myself (Please God, not this one) and when that patient died... I was angry...very angry. It took a lot out of me, I actually FELT that person leave, the last breath, the eyes lose their light. It's a tough man. You bottle it up in the beginning, then you learn to let it go and you move on to the next one.

But the good you do, the people you help, the ones you save balance it out... You appreciate things more, you hug your kids more, kiss your wife...life is a precious thing, and the taking of life is not to be taken lightly.

reply to post by EyesWideShut


It would appear i have to apologize, It appears I was mistaken, they can be fired underwater, from some research it would seem most firearms can be fired underwater, including a 1911 and an ar15.

Originally posted by scorpiosin
reply to post by paratus

 

That stainless pistol is very nice. I'm attracted to shiny things

Those Judge and Public Defenses look like they would be a lot of fun to take to the range. Is the XD Sub still accurate with the 3" barrel?

Those Heizers look cool I've never seen those. I was wanting a little more capacity though.

I usually carry IWB.

Since you mentioned night sights, I just wanted to share that I've used that phosphorescent paint made for doing gun sights to make ghetto night sights on my cheaper pistol and they actually turned out really well. For the cost and time it took I'd recommend it to anyone that has a gun they don't want to justify spending the money for real night sights on.

edit on 26-7-2012 by scorpiosin because: (no reason given)

IWB is a tall order for a 45. Do you want a full sized 45?
That'll be very uncomfortable IMO.
If you're 6'5" 275lbs it might be ok, but I'm guessing your more normal proportions.

I also use nail polish or phos paint for DIY jobs as well and they usually end up good however I re-do the yearly it seems due to wear and tear.

Regarding the XD40sub 3" barrel accuracy; It took some time but proficiency was achieved after a few 100 rounds. Never had problems with extraction, stovepipe, failures etc. EVER.

reply to post by EyesWideShut


I cannot find Gold Dots anywhere! Did they stop distributing them or something?

I was reading on AR15 that there was a rumor that they were AP rounds and because of the rumor they stopped making them. Shame, I loved gold dots.

reply to post by paratus


Yeah I was worried about the size of effectively and comfortably carrying a .45 like that. I'm about 6'2 215 so I'm not small but I don't think I could or would want to conceal a full size. I was hoping for my CC piece to be 4" maximum barrel length. With the size of those XD subcompacts it looks like those would be very nice for ease of carry I would think. I could get an XD sub 9 and that would open up my .45 options to a full size...I'm so indecisive