Garner Respect and Influence the world around you...Win the game of life....

So....

Ok, I wasn't sure where to put this, so I decided to post it here. I'm going to write a bit about something I've learned, and how it helped/is helping me and how it can help you too. This ain't out of a self help book or anything, this took a long time for me to figure out. Maybe it's natural to some, but I know it's not natural to everyone.

I was always a "strange egg", that is to say that I've never been part of the "in" crowd. I'm a "Lone-Wolf" for the most part. My own thoughts, my own ideas, etc.

If you're anything like that, then you know that road leads to ahem... being considered "antisocial". I was hampered throughout much of my youth by the label of "antisocial behaviour".

It wasn't that I was totally shy, I just didn't/don't "connect" with your average "joe sixpack". I don't watch sports, barely watch t.v., don't keep up with pop culture etc. By not having those sources to draw from, it harms you in social situations, or at least it can. But I've found the most interesting way to combat it.

What I'm talking about isn't new, it's not a secret that only I know. It's a system in all of us, just most don't ever notice it's there.

The way to interact with people and gain respect or acknowledgment from those you interact with is easy:

You must be what that person wants you to be.

That sounds really vague and general, but I can assure you it is rather simple once you've seen the reality of human interaction.

See, I've been very observent of what some would call the "human condition". Busy little persons totally absorbed in either themselves or something that mainstream public perception deems worthy to be absorbed in.

For years I was a "fly on the wall", in malls, and cafes, a fixture, not in the scene's forefront, but part of the overall "stage" in various venues. It took years of observation before I finally saw what I'm going to explain to you.

In the situation of normal human interaction, the outward facade of sucessful communication between two persons seems to be all about words. In reality that is actually the least important thing.

In human interaction, to be accepted, to be "a part of" whatever you wish, you simply must understand the other person's persona and match it.

You must speak to him/her with the same volume, tempo, and inflection that he/she is speaking to you in.

You must observe the person's gestures, their habits when speaking to you. If they cross their arms, you should too. If they pace back and forth, you should match them. If they cross their legs, you cross yours.

This continuity is critical. Normal verbal communication(what we say) is less than 10% of what the other person judges you on. Body language, tone, inflection, and tempo make up for the rest of it.

To interact, to garner respect from a person, they have to be able to relate to you. What better way to make them relate to you than to subtly mimick them? At once they find a "common ground" in you. What you're saying matters little compared to what they percieve you are saying. Which you are in complete control of.

Watch two people who interact in a nice, respectful and agreeable fashion. You'll see what I'm telling you is true. Pacing, Positioning, Tone and Tempo will be very similar or exactly identical.

Is doing this dishonest? No, not in my opinion. The person you are interacting with wants this to occur, on whatever level. By doing this, you are making a common ground, and then the situation takes off from there.

After a while of interacting with people in this manner you'll be able to gauge how much influence you have over them. How? Simple, after a while while interacting with a person, start changing the tone, he will too(without knowing it), fold your arms, he'll do similar(again unknown to him). It's a real kick when you realize it.

I was recently speaking privately to a person on here about various things, NLP(Neuro Linguistic Programming) was brought up. I'd say that what I just described to you is an example of NLP in it's purest form.

What I've shared with you is not new. It's ancient, but just not widely known. The best salesmen you've ever interacted with knew what I'm telling you(or knew how to implement it even if not understanding it). Politicians use this on a daily basis(good ones at least). That "ultra popular" guy at your job, the one that everyone "loves" and respects, he's doing what I just told you. Really, take another look around you now, and you'll see it's there.

I can assure you, from my personal experiences with this, that this is not fiction, it really works. It's interesting though because very few people will ever be able to observe that that's what you're doing. Note also however that sometimes someone will "pick up" on what you're doing, although they can't understand why or how, and they can become mad or irate at you. Of course, to others they seem "irrational" at best, for better or worse.

Also just for the record, I've never used this for personal advantage, not since I've matured in my actions at least . For me it has just allowed me to "fit in" without the average "junk" that I've no time for(sports, movies, pop culture etc).

Besides writing this to share it with other "odd eggs" out there who can't seem to "interact", I also wanted to ask a few questions:

Had you noticed this before this thread?

If you are someone who also uses this, how did you come about understanding it?

Do you think that doing this is unethical in any way? Why?

Could a person using this technique do so in a harmful manner?

Do you think my little technique could serve the purpose of good for other "antisocial" individuals? I do.

Does anyone know a way to combat this? It seems that it might be able to be misused, maybe it is(government, advertising, big business etc?)?

Hope those out there with similar situations can understand what I've said and put it to use for them.

X

Oh and if you're "antisocial" and read through this, and still don't get it, drop me a U2U and I'll try to help ya out.

I would hazard a guess that many members on this board have noticed "subliminal" messaging by advertisers, government and individuals.

This could and probably has been used to promote conspirational methods of population or societal control.

Its the rare person (or organization) that uses this "power" or "observation" for good, mostly in my view its been abused.

WELL. WELL. well,

Actually your SubjectTitle is what got my interest.

Xatnys -> [a scowling 'Bender' pointing accusitive finger? bedecked in white ermine fur?]

mood: ? sublime? .....with 1918 ATS points ?

In my [substantial] travels...i've encountered just GOBS of HIDEOUS and
down-right UNPLEASANT persons.

By readng your post, I don't believe you are one of the UnPleasant People
that press against our 'personal space' or 'oppress' us with noisy lives!

Xatnys gets my vote in this month [which ends up with 'Halloween'...]

Graet post Xatnys, St Udio is right, a vote from a fellow lonewolf like yourself!

Had you noticed this before this thread?
Not really, though it does make a lot of sense when I think of it however.

Do you think that doing this is unethical in any way? Why?
The only thing I see is that this technique would be misleading as to who you really are. By giving everyone what they want from you, you're still not showing your truth. What if you hook up with this person, as a friend or for a relationship, could/would you want to put on such a show always? How quickly do you think will they turn away when they see the real you, and if so, does that even make them worth to please?

Could a person using this technique do so in a harmful manner?
Back to the misleading part, it could harm a possible relationship, labelling it as fake.

Do you think my little technique could serve the purpose of good for other "antisocial" individuals? I do.
Perhaps, yes. One other thing I don't undrstand is how it works considering the subject during discussion. You have to know what you are talking about to put any such act on for anyone, else you'll just be standing there nodding your head, changing posture like some nobhead. You said you don't follow on any of the things that they do, so how do you do it? Unless you do just that, and start learning those things that is.

Does anyone know a way to combat this? It seems that it might be able to be misused, maybe it is(government, advertising, big business etc?)?
To combat it, the first thing is to know it, then present it to others, which you have wholeheartedly done. The next step is for everyone else to recognise.

Cheers.

[edit on 9-10-2004 by deaf fences hit]

Originally posted by St Udio
Xatnys gets my

vote in this month [which ends up with 'Halloween'...]

I must agree! got my vote!

very good "food for thought" thank you, Xatnys.

perhaps your giving people in general a little too much credit?

why should you be the one to confrom to their like minded manner of cunduct?

those who have not learned to accept ones truthful inner being, are the ones in need of a different outlook. pleasanties aside, if you directly match someones thoughts how will you be able to excel cooperatively?

i find the best way to convince someone of something is the most bluntly. frank and asserting tones get the job done. those with little understanding of reality will lose face. then there are those with tactically planned out evasive manuivers of the truth itself (the majority, that is everyone not on ATS) who will turn bitterfully sour at first mentioning of the truth.

so when you take on the role of crowd pleaser, you take the easy way out. escaping the harsh task of measuring your peers integrity, and fortitude you are disshonoring their name. making it known you do not care if they are dumb as long as you can get along with them. i will do them no such dishonor, to strengthen their will one must try their patients. giving a helping hand is the ultimate reward!

Wasn't sure if ATS on the whole would "get it", cool to see that some are at least thinking about it. That's all I ever want to do is get people thinking.

Phoenix - Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not certain if this could be used effectively via "one sided" transmission(tv radio etc). But I do think it could.

Yes, this can totally be used to control persons, even if on a minor level. The only way I've done so was in a harmless manner, and it was via face to face two way interaction.

If you and I(and presumably others) feel that this method can be abused, what can be done to combat this?

Great thoughts, I appreciate them.

St Udio- I do truly enjoy your powers of observation. I wondered who all would notice some of that, and other things. Yes, I truly am not a person that would do ANYTHING to oppress anyone. If I love anything in life, it's to see people thinking. I don't mean the opinions that are force fed to persons via mass media, I mean I love to see persons come up with ideas that are totally original to themselves, that's real beauty imho.

I'm sure the oppressors are in fact working on society as we speak(type), but free thought breeds freedom, free in mind makes an unbreakable spirit. Keep on keeping on!


deaf fences hit- Thank you for your kind words.

It truly does make a ton of common sense when you realize the dynamic for human interaction occurs on many levels.

I agree that it's misleading about who you "truly are", as you are presenting what that person wants or expects you to be. But look a little closer the next time you're around a close friend interacting with a stranger neither of you know. You'll see that rarely to humans show thier true selves to others at first glance. When you see that, is using this method to garner success in social and professional situations really that bad? I know that I felt bad when I started implementing this method, but I'll tell you that it does not feel bad after a while of gaining respect and admiration from peers. We individuals are just not used to it, as we are typically quickly labeled as antisocial and that stigma carries with us.

This was a great statement/question and was my major hurdle for a long time as well:

One other thing I don't undrstand is how it works considering the subject during discussion.

This is far from a static situation, meaning that the overall "truth" I state here will vary from situation to situation(your mileage may vary). But let me put it to you in the most basic form, this took a long time to comprehend, and may for you as well, but when you realize it, it all opens up:

The reality is that you don't need much of an understanding at all of the point which you discuss with others. What you must do however, is while you match their mannerisms, you have to make sure that your verbal communication is desplaying a willful, direct, desire to KNOW. Once the person feels that you CARE enough to know, it is alsmost the same as KNOWING what he knows, as he will then be more than happy to share what he knows with you.

The beauty of this point is that it works with most personality types, and in most situations. Be sure that you match them in all the factors I've mentioned, and always try to convey the WILLINGNESS to understand. Humans love to feel like a "tutor" even if on a subconcious level, you are using that instinct to your advantage, and they are happy to give you that power. The enthusiasim to learn is the key.

Also, what an excellent point you make in how to combat this. Perhaps I've thought that on a lower level and that is what made me decide to share this info with you all. The more who know this, the less effect it will have? Interesting indeed.

Ghoztface- Thank you for the support! Really tear this info apart and make it work for you!



sturod84- An excellent post with some great thoughts in it. You are obviously an individual. How can I make that assumption? Because you sound like myself on this topic. I wanted to take your statements point-by-point, as it really will illuminate a lot of this.

perhaps your giving people in general a little too much credit?

Not at all Sturod, but I know EXACTLY why you'd think that. I thought that too while I stood and watched it all. This machine that I'm speaking of is an ancient one, and it's just bred into us throughout normal life "routine".

why should you be the one to confrom to their like minded manner of cunduct?

Ah I know what you mean. I assure you that internally I am not a conformist Sturod. You see, in reality my(or yours when you do this) conformity is in fact an illusion. You never lose sight of yourself when doing this, you are still who you are. In fact you are using this method to gain the persons trust and respect through common ground. After a bit you could, if you were so inclined, "lead" the other person, and manipulate them. I gave a brief example of this in my first post, but a more malicious individual could take it farther I'm certain. I however would never do so.

those who have not learned to accept ones truthful inner being, are the ones in need of a different outlook. pleasanties aside, if you directly match someones thoughts how will you be able to excel cooperatively?

That wonderful in concept, but let's get back to the real world. I have no problem with myself, lonewolfs have no problem with what they believe. However you have to exist in a system built almost opposite of the way you are, and therefore society rejects you. You are assigned a "wide-use" label and then are stuck with it.

What I'm doing here is showing others how to advance in social and professional situations, without giving up what they truly believe in. See, when you break it apart, life, and the societal system we live in, it's a game. You don't play the game, and you are labeled. However if you know how to play the game, you can play it, and in fact excel at it.

In reality, I'm probably the most Self-Actualized you have ever met. I've formed my beliefs at a young age, and am not afraid to use them when needed. I were that badge with pride, when needed. But to advance in the game of life, you must adhere to certain conventions that I and other "loners" may not wish to conform to. That's where this method allows you to shine in situations that would normally leave you on the "outside looking in".

i find the best way to convince someone of something is the most bluntly. frank and asserting tones get the job done.

I can certainly respect that, but that won't get you nearly as far as you'd think. You will come against walls in situations, that your bluntness will never tear down. You will either scrap your efforts and look like a fool, or you will continue an be percieved as a "psycho" by those that do not agree with you.

What I'm speaking of is a way to harness the other person's want of a common ground, their desire to "befriend", you use that to your advantage.

An example:

You and I work in the same office. Same attendance record, same or similar work ethic( I may stay later from time to time but then you do too etc) You've never heard what I've written here, so you don't know my true motivations, or how I do what I do.

We go about our daily routines, your unwaveringness keeps you sitting off at your desk while I am at the "watercooler" using my method to garner laughs and have others "bond" with me.

The word spreads and the boss has interest in this guy that seems so "Charismatic". I use this method again with him, letting him feel to be leading our friendship development, but in fact I am doing what's needed to pull the strings.

Tough times for the company ahead. Layoffs are on the way. Office scuttle but is that our department is loosing 3 people. I can then guarantee you that my name is not on my bosses list, is yours?

You'd not know, you could be out of there in two weeks with a horrible severence package. I'll feel bad for you as I'm on my way to get the boss, we're going to lunch and then headed off to the putting green. I'll be sure to pick ya up a sympathy card on the way back, gotta get the whole office to sign it.

Of course the will do so begrudgingly, as even though they don't know or like you, the feel sorry for "that strange guy". Maybe someone will get you a cake.

Your views have gotten you a front row seat to "the outside looking in". My method secured my position and will have me moving up to the boss' position(on his recommendation) when he takes his next step up the ladder.


Sound far fetched? Sound like a "t.v. show"? Let me tell ya something Sturod, that's a true account with you replaced by someone else I knew. Dunno what happened to that guy, but I do feel rather bad for him. Maybe that's another reason why I wanted to post this thread, so others can survive, and so that others don't have to fall out.

The beauty of the situation though, is that he could have used that method to "come out of his shell", and the cards could have fallen differently.

That's the real world.

That's the basis for professional communications.

And that's how you get ahead most of the time.


X













[edit on 10-10-2004 by Xatnys]

thnx for the sound advice,

"or you will continue an be percieved as a "psycho" by those that do not agree with you." you hit the nail on the head with that one.

one thing about the job situation, when does your actual productivity come into play? you could be a nice fellow and all, but if i keep my nose in my work, and pump out (god knows what goes on in those offices, im unemployed) tons of well thought out coherent work, wouldnt i be the one who keeps my job? and you slackers over at the water cooler would get the boot?

alas.... zapping back to reality with you, i remember that life is not always clean cut and fair. that is why, in a nutshell, i do not believe in the system. at my old job for example, i would have to sell little trinkets along with the main product. it morally bludgens me to press people like that. i can clearly see they do not want my advice, and only want to get on their way. if i do not harp on them and make a sale, i will be repremanded. there is an overwhelming dilema these days to either get paid, or tottaly disregard your beliefes. some situations are more extreme then others, but the general idea that you should conform and not ask any questions ties into the West Vs Muslim problem, as well as your daily office routine, and as a much more extreme example government contractors in foreign contries. doing their busness, all the while getting shot at. how can i show my boss respect, if he is having me assemble microchips that will be used in laser guided missles. that i know will be marked for an iraqi hotspot, but boy those micro chips bring in the dough!

so now i must part, off to my staring role called daily life.

light me up that ciggarette and slap shoes on my feet. go to find a reason, reason things went wrong. got to find a reason why my moneys all gone.




[edit on 10-10-2004 by sturod84]

Xatnys:

Wow, your experiences as an "outcast" were the same as mine until recently. I found it hard to communicate with people simply because they were not interested in the things that I wanted to talk about (such as the myriad of topics here on ATS lol) Everyone was conditioned to mainstream ideas and did not want to venture beyond that. It was then I realised that I would have to conform to mainstream society against my own will inorder to "properly function" and not be labled as anti-social but then again, this was in high school (I am currently a sophomore in college).

The method of resolution to this "problem" that you talk about is called code-switching where you change your true persona inorder to fit into a certain social group. As you mentioned before, it is easy for this technique to be taken advantage of, especially on my part since during my time as a "lonewolf" I observed the behavior of various people around me and I came to understand their personalities. I could then "shapeshift" (lol) into their personality and become likeable(sp?) to them. Fortunantly (for them) I am a benevolent person and would never dream of deceiving them for any reason.

It would appear that all us "lonewolves" would seem to have the upper hand in social settings. How ironic..

Thank you for clearing that up Xatnys. Even though I now understand how this technique works, I still feel that it's more important to stay true to ones self, however, it seems that you are implying that both can be done, which is entirely plausible. Sure some may want others to connect with them on the same level, but people such as myself, would still rather speak to those in a manor that is held to ones own.

Something like this might make things flow better, and put on a nice show, but as far as I'm concerned, we are here to see things as they are. In this, I'm tending to think of it as a possible government/media tactic if anything, as you mentioned earlier, just another front to make us see what they want us to see. Meet like with like, etc.

Perhaps it can be turned around and used against them or others who are absorbed by it, but maybe not so much on those who are more aware. Anyways, besides the factor of "fitting in", why else would anyone want to do this, except for what I just mentioned above?

Sturod- Wow see, I like that, you really are looking at all the angles

Notice in the second post I made that I tried to set the stage of similar work ethic, to give the example a baseline of equality.

With this method, many of the variables become situational. That is to say, a total phony runs a high risk of being exposed as such by using this method. On the same token, a highly skilled person in whatever professional environment can choose to use this method to excel, where normally his "unconventional outlook" would keep him grounded in the easiest process of advancement.

If, in the previous example I were a slacker using this method, and you were a hard working outcast, even if layoffs came and you were working better or had shown more knowledge or productivity, you might have some form of job security, just depends on what the "boss" had noticed about you. Most situations though, if you're the "odd man", you'll be the "odd man out".

Also, even if the guy was less knowledgeable then you, and was a master manimpulator(what we call "charismatic" ), he could still slip up and be uncovered. As his lack of production, his lack of professionalism can be exposed by others as his popularity increases and or surpasses theirs.

When you jump in to this, you gotta know you're jumping into a shark tank of human emotion. I can't even begin to explain this, as It's something I'm stilly observing and "taking notes on" to this day.

I'm sure a skilled and unethical manipulator though, could control situations the likes of which I've never seen. If that is so, then they could in theory use a more forceful method of this as a way to "shield" themselves from being uncovered.

Anytime you start messing with other people's perceptions, you're in a lot of uncharted territory. If you go in with a calm respectful and responsible air about you, wishing to harm none and only are working for your own social / professional benifit, you have much less variables to worry about. If you go in with a huge ego, and want to bend every aspect of a person or many people's will, you want to gain and are willing to manipulate others into unhealthy situations, you have MUCH more to deal with. Keeping that all together would be very, very, hard to say the least.

Also you'll never be in 100% control of every situation. What I've tried to expose to you fine people is not a "god guide" not by any means.

No, there are (I believe) powers at work around us that have A LOT more control over people than you will ever have. This is even more true if you are truely a good person that does not wish to control others harmfully.

See, in the end, you're not standing there with a "remote control" to the person's mind. You are more of a "mental farmer" you simply plant seeds of certain emotions, and then care for them as they grow. That's probably the best way to look at it.

Great stuff Sturod, not only because you bring the answers out of me for yourself and others, but you also help to enhance my own position as I spend time thinking of your words. I truly sat here for 2 hours thinking on what you had brought up, that's some quality thought, if I do say so myself .

[edit- oh sturod:]

light me up that ciggarette and slap shoes on my feet. go to find a reason, reason things went wrong. got to find a reason why my moneys all gone.

HAHA, nice. Sublime indeed you seem to be.


Ethereal Visage- Hey there, very nice to meet another who "gets it". I think it's so amazing, the human condition I mean. When I first started to notice these things, it was a tad...insane heh. To realize that the majority of persons are made up of a facade that they knowingly / unknowingly assembly over time is interesting. It turns a lot of the world into a... play... as strange as it sounds.


My understanding of this stuff started in my senior year in highschool, and I took awhile really to understand all I could see from observation, before I ever went to "practice" this method. It helped me to overcome that "lonewolf shell" that a lot of us have.

It would appear that all us "lonewolves" would seem to have the upper hand in social settings. How ironic..

Indeed. Probably the most amazing personal revelation I've ever had.


Stay with it, I've heard a saying of "If you don't use your mind, your mind will use you."
I assure you that you are using your mind to a great extent if you are doing this.


deaf fences hit- I can totally feel the essence of your situation. Please know that I too believe in remaining true to yourself. The more you rip this apart( you will eventually), the more you'll see that even though you make alterations for the sake of others, you inside, remain the same. Actually it does change you a bit I'd admit, but it comes from the experience, I guess like a "wisdom". If you do this with only good intentions for you and those you interact with, you will grow in ways that I can't begin to understand in full yet.

Again, I know what you mean bud, but in reality(as you see it), is it not the fact that by trying to master this truth, that you see the very fabric of society in its truest form? I believe you actually see things in a more real manner than most persons ever get to.

Real individuals, Sturod, yourself, and the others who care to ponder on this subject, you don't really fall into the "societal norm". Persons who choose to question what is put before them don't fall under this, not easily at least. In fact, we are the most prone to see this happen, a lot of our "type" can observe someone doing this and can't "put our finger on it", it's then that you have persons become irate trying to rationalize this method, but for some reason they can't do so. It's interesting, and sad at the same time.

Oh deaf, I can assure you that there are persons, and possibly governments that use methods such as this to their advantage, harmfully or at the very least with a uncaring method. Everybody has an agenda, even if they don't realize it.

Also, others use this stuff on a daily basis, without knowing what it is that they are doing. They get parts of these skills from "coporate training seminars" or maybe from a myriad of "self help books", the most astute of them will learn to "tie it together" in some form, and breed success in whatever it is they're really focused on. If it's a bad person, they'll do harmful actions without regard of those they "influence".

Persons such as Ethereal Visage and myself are interesting as well. If I run into another who "gets it" in a social circle, you have an instant friendship, or actually more of a "kinship". You've traveled similar roads, you have seen many of the same revelations, and you both know it. Strong wills abound in this line of living, and you have to overcome ego to really do this method with respect for all you involve.

Great stuff, I hope these words give new perspective to those who need to use this method in a kind, gentle, responsible manner.

The worst thing that can happen to a free thinker is to be labeled by society. Many eventually buy into that label themselves, and that leads to antisocial tendencies, and leaves the free thinker in a sort of prison built by society and himself.

Sure persons could use this for the normal wanton desires, try to get money, try to get laid, try to conquer. That ain't my mission though. I want to give the free thinker a key to his "cell".

X

Hi ho! Hi ho! Back to the grind I go!






[edit on 11-10-2004 by Xatnys]

For anyone who wants to know more of this, you can search "mirroring and rapport" on google.

I've known about this for quite sometime, when you mirror a person you gain rapport with them. There are other ways of gaining rapport, but this is the easiest one. Another way is to mirror their facial expressions.

More search results.

www.google.com...

www.google.com...

www.google.com...

www.google.com...

Thanks for the links Bandit.

I for one will go and see what's up with these sites, interesting to say the least.

X

I'm sure a skilled and unethical manipulator though, could control situations the likes of which I've never seen.

this is why you wouldnt want to get on my bad side

there are those who practice this scenario on a daily bases, they are called gangsters. conversing with them is a constant match of wits, and egos. good laughs, not so rightous cause, i have found my way out of that loop. also be reminded retarded rapping crackheads are not gangster

Originally posted by Ethereal Visage
The method of resolution to this "problem" that you talk about is called code-switching where you change your true persona inorder to fit into a certain social group.

This is exactly what I've found, im able to fit well into groups that i'd otherwise not be interested in. Its at best a deception but I don't see an ethical problem with it unless its used in a malignant way I suppose. Im surprised since only a few people have been able to see how I operate.

Anyways great post and I think you've inspired me to read up once again on this topic.