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World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?

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posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by buster2010
Cry about Islam all you want the world wars started by Christians has killed far more than Islamic terrorist could ever dream of doing. Hell we have probably killed more people in Iraq than the op states the Muslims have killed. Just look at how many so called Christians in the American government that keep calling for war.

You may want to actually learn something about the Qur'an also. A Muslim is only allowed to fight when he or his religion is being oppressed. And seeing how their nations have been bombed for the last couple of decades they have plenty of reason to want to fight.


Anything that is a affront to Islam is oppressive to islam correct? Any culture opposite of islam is considered a affront to it. Now that's not to say all Muslims are feeling oppressed. I have to ask though. Its ok to lie to further islams goals to non muslims. If that is true then why should we believe anything they say?


Affront and oppression are two different words. If any culture is an affront as you think then why have Jews and Muslims have been able to live together for centuries with no problems? As far as the lying part you are confusing that with Judaism. Muslims are like Christians when it comes to lying. Jews are allowed to lie to get what they want the other two aren't.




posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by The X
 


Good old memri tv. Well known for mistranslating into English.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
 


Ever single verse you quoted in the OP is taken out of context. The Qur'an was actively revealed to the Prophet (saws) during his lifetime and was a lot of times revealed based on events which happened. None of those verses that speak of "declaring war" are timeless suggestions. Muslims are only permitted to defend themselves, not to be the aggressors (as it says in the Quran chapter 2 verse 191 which you ignored completely).

This will be my only response to this thread because clearly it was devised by someone who, despite their "polite tone" seeks nothing more than to attack and slander Islam. The OP is not concerned with facts in the least bit and I suspect that the Quran verses they quoted were taken directly from an anti-Islam website.

If anyone has genuine questions about Islam then you can U2U me. I guarantee I am more of an Islamic scholar than FlyInTheOintment.

Peace be upon you


Here's a serious question for you, and I promise that it is not hateful in any way, I just need to understand something. You and my.mind.is.mine are both welcome to weigh in on this.

Nearly ALL of the victims of Islamic violence are other Muslims. Whether it's a Sunni group attacking a Shia group or vice-versa (both groups apparently think the other is heretical), the numbers of Muslim victims of Islamic terrorism dwarf the numbers of Christians and Jews killed by Muslims.

1. It's not like internecine killings in the Ummah are a rarity is it? There are atrocities committed every single day to chants of Allah Akbar. Did these Muslim terrorists - from different sects who kill their fellow Muslims on a daily basis - not get the memo about Islam being a religion of peace or what?

2. Why is it that in most instances, these groups (they are both guilty) choose a house of worship as their target? Do they think it pleases God more if they kill heretics while they are on their knees in prayer? What do you think is their reasoning for this?

3. I think the reasons that you haven't experienced persecution because of your common Sufi beliefs is because you live in Western countries where that kind of thing is frowned upon.


For the last several hundred years Sufis have been persecuted in both Shia and Sunni Islamic countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Bangladesh, Pakistan, as well as in India when large parts of it were under Islamic rule for over a thousand years.

Sufism has been practically wiped out, as both Shias and Sunnis have attacked them for their "un-Islamic" conduct like emphasis on devotional music and dance as the way to reach God.

The continuing persecution of Sufis in Kashmir by Wahabi/Salafist Sunni Radical Islamic terrorists of Pakistan



(Reuters) - Freed from Muammar Gaddafi's 42-year dictatorship, Libya's Sufi Muslims find themselves under renewed pressure from violent Islamists who have been attacking them and their beliefs as heretical. The desecration of graves belonging to Sufi saints and sages in recent months have put the peaceful Sufis on the defensive, prompting some to post armed guards at their mosques and lodges to ward off hardline thugs.

Libya: Sufis face continuing persecution after revolution


If you were to live in the "Old country" as it were, I believe that you would be in danger of losing your lives because you are, in the eyes of both Sunni and Shia, heretics worthy of death. How can you deny the violence being committed against your brethren in the name of Allah?

(BTW Abdullah, I've read quite a few of your posts and I have to say I feel you truly are a good guy.)



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by The X
It wasn't my claim.


Oh no. You don't get to backtrack now. Your initial response was, "Ah, but it's not suicide if you take some infidels with you. Then you're considered a martyr and raised to the highest level of whatever."

Then I asked you for Qur'anic and or hadith evidence to back up your claim. You then posted a plagiarized (and unsourced) copy and paste from a notorious anti-Islam propaganda website which did not back up your initial claim of "Ah, but it's not suicide if you take some infidels with you. Then you're considered a martyr and raised to the highest level of whatever."

So you cannot say it wasn't your claim. You would have to be lying in order to say so. It was very much your claim. It's there for everyone to see on this particular comment of yours

So I'm STILL waiting for you to provide evidence to back up your claim of "Ah, but it's not suicide if you take some infidels with you. Then you're considered a martyr and raised to the highest level of whatever."



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by buster2010
 


Good old memri tv. Well known for mistranslating into English.
Well known by whom? People with a built in bias against MEMRI? I thought that site had a pretty good reputation. Is it possible you're overstating you're objection to them? What evidence have you that would persuade an objective person?

Here's why it's important. I have seen several times during this thread individuals say "Those words aren't what the (Koran, hadiths, speech) really meant. They're mistranslated, they're out of context. Only I can tell you what those words mean, and amazingly enough the "real" meaning is what makes my argument look good." Or if it's a news report, the response is "They're biased, they're hatemongers, they're perpetuating stereotypes, it didn't happen." Or if it's an actual event of a Muslim doing something bad, then it's "They're not real Muslims, they were provoked by years of (whatever), you can't judge a religion by a few bad people." While ignoring the approval given out to those who "die for Allah" by governments, mosques, and the general population. While ignoring the reports of massive deaths caused by thousands of warriors for Allah (See above for approved responses.)

I ask again, which religion has caused the deaths of thousands in this century to expand their religions influence? Please notice, I didn't use the plural. Certainly the US is not killing people in order to spread the Christian religion, there may be a few Christians who actively hate in public, but they are condemned, marginalized, and don't kill people. (I suppose, having said that, someone may find one, but if that's impressive to you, you don't understand this post.)

I was hoping this thread would have some merit, but there are a few people who seem anxious to attack, primarily on the personal level, and seem unwilling to engage in a discussion. I wish you hadn't stolen this thread. If we can't behave here, where is the hope for behaving in the world?



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:50 PM
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First off, let me say thank you for the kind response and compliments. Now I'll attempt to answer your questions as best I can.


Originally posted by TTAA2012

1. It's not like internecine killings in the Ummah are a rarity is it? There are atrocities committed every single day to chants of Allah Akbar. Did these Muslim terrorists - from different sects who kill their fellow Muslims on a daily basis - not get the memo about Islam being a religion of peace or what?


Well that's the problem. So many Muslims are not that learned in their religion and are deceived by these religious leaders who distort the Quran for their own gains.

I'll be the first to say that it seems Islam is in its Dark Ages and most Muslims just don't know their religion well enough. I'll also point out that one of the signs of the end times is books/writing will be widespread and religious knowledge will be low.



2. Why is it that in most instances, these groups (they are both guilty) choose a house of worship as their target? Do they think it pleases God more if they kill heretics while they are on their knees in prayer? What do you think is their reasoning for this?


I really don't know. Could be that or perhaps it's an instance of "adding insult to injury." Not only are they killing but also destroying their house of worship. Sort of like "good White Christians" burning down Black churches in the South?



3. I think the reasons that you haven't experienced persecution because of your common Sufi beliefs is because you live in Western countries where that kind of thing is frowned upon.


Well I've never been "persecuted" but I have experienced anti-Muslim discrimination before. Westerners don't know that I'm a Sufi. They just see "Muslim." The see the kufi and the beard and automatically I'm the bad guy.


If you were to live in the "Old country" as it were, I believe that you would be in danger of losing your lives because you are, in the eyes of both Sunni and Shia, heretics worthy of death. How can you deny the violence being committed against your brethren in the name of Allah?


Oh I don't deny it at all. I know it happens. The point we are making is that being a Sufi does not make us not Muslims. And not all Sunni and Shi'a are anti-Sufi. In fact Sufi is not exactly a 'sect' of Islam and almost all Sufis also identify as either Sunni or Shi'a themselves.

I hope this has clarified some things. Peace be upon you.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by samsamm9

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
 


Warning: Video is extremly graphic in nature, viewer discretion is advised.



This is what is going to happen to the Western world, this is a prophetic vision of our future.



Your mind is full of filth and violence.
Even got a smiley shooting !

You're just trying to spread fear and the truth is you're exactly the type of person people should fear.
Counter productive ??


How is telling the truth spreading fear? It seems to me that it is the terrorists who are murdering their fellow Muslims and taping it to show on the internet are the ones trying to spread fear.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in the above post. Muslims are murdering their fellow Muslims by the literal busload every single day, yet if anyone talks about it they are branded an Islamophobe. What utter horsesh!t!

If Muslims want to do something to clean up their image around the world, then they need to acknowledge that there IS a problem here, quit spouting the "Religion of peace" crap, and do something about it.

One thing I'm sure of is that Muslims are human beings just like me, a parent just like me, who want nothing more than to earn a living and raise their children in such a way as to give them a better life. I'm sure that the assholes who strap bombs to their children's chests and send them off to murder other children are in a minority, so I would think that those in the majority would want to do something to put an end to this barbaric practice instead of just making excuses for it.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by TTAA2012

3. I think the reasons that you haven't experienced persecution because of your common Sufi beliefs is because you live in Western countries where that kind of thing is frowned upon.


For the last several hundred years Sufis have been persecuted in both Shia and Sunni Islamic countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Bangladesh, Pakistan, as well as in India when large parts of it were under Islamic rule for over a thousand years.

Sufism has been practically wiped out, as both Shias and Sunnis have attacked them for their "un-Islamic" conduct like emphasis on devotional music and dance as the way to reach God.

The continuing persecution of Sufis in Kashmir by Wahabi/Salafist Sunni Radical Islamic terrorists of Pakistan



(Reuters) - Freed from Muammar Gaddafi's 42-year dictatorship, Libya's Sufi Muslims find themselves under renewed pressure from violent Islamists who have been attacking them and their beliefs as heretical. The desecration of graves belonging to Sufi saints and sages in recent months have put the peaceful Sufis on the defensive, prompting some to post armed guards at their mosques and lodges to ward off hardline thugs.

Libya: Sufis face continuing persecution after revolution


If you were to live in the "Old country" as it were, I believe that you would be in danger of losing your lives because you are, in the eyes of both Sunni and Shia, heretics worthy of death. How can you deny the violence being committed against your brethren in the name of Allah?

(BTW Abdullah, I've read quite a few of your posts and I have to say I feel you truly are a good guy.)


This is largely falsified btw. Sufism is thriving, and on a growth spurt worldwide - especially throughout Africa and Southern Asia. It's origins come from that area, and it has never been excluded from practice. The blog post you referenced is from 2006 and is only talking about Kashmir, where wahhabi/salafi views are rampant.

With that being said, the number of sufi muslims worldwide is fairly large, and growing. Just my tariqa alone comprises well over a million adherents, and it's not even the largest tariqa. It is well known that salafi ideology casts out practitioners of sufism, however that doesn't fuel "oppression" as much as it fuels debate these days. Post Ghadafi Libya is a bad example for oppression of sufi muslims.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by TTAA2012
 


TTAA, we are not making excuses, though. We are combatting these things. Educating people and showing how the actions of terrorists are wrong within the fold of Islam is our personal jihad (struggle).

The problem is it becomes hard to do that because we are constantly having to defend Islam from the lies of Islamophobic bigots. Most people who spout lies about Islam do not care about Muslims killing Muslims. They only care when it's Muslims killing non-Muslims. I think most of them are more than happy that Muslims are killing each other in mass numbers. Sort of like racists who love the idea of Black gangbangers shooting each other. The gangbangers only become a problem when they spill over their "borders" and begin committing crimes against White people. There's not much rationality in bigotry whether it's racial or religious.

So no we do not condone these actions and we do not attempt to gloss over them. Our primary goal is to educate people to what Islam really is and what it's not. It's hard to 'educate' though when you have to keep debunking the same talking points and strawmen over and over again.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by TTAA2012
How is telling the truth spreading fear? It seems to me that it is the terrorists who are murdering their fellow Muslims and taping it to show on the internet are the ones trying to spread fear.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in the above post. Muslims are murdering their fellow Muslims by the literal busload every single day, yet if anyone talks about it they are branded an Islamophobe. What utter horsesh!t!

If Muslims want to do something to clean up their image around the world, then they need to acknowledge that there IS a problem here, quit spouting the "Religion of peace" crap, and do something about it.

One thing I'm sure of is that Muslims are human beings just like me, a parent just like me, who want nothing more than to earn a living and raise their children in such a way as to give them a better life. I'm sure that the assholes who strap bombs to their children's chests and send them off to murder other children are in a minority, so I would think that those in the majority would want to do something to put an end to this barbaric practice instead of just making excuses for it.


When's the last time you got into a discussion with a muslim and he/she referred to it as "the religion of peace"?

There's 3 of us on this thread right now and I don't think any of us have said that. Nor have we denied that things go on, we've been so busy tryna argue all the blatantly false claims attributed to our ideology, that we haven't had a chance to discuss current events.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by My.mind.is.mine
 


These armchair internet researchers kind of show why there hasn't been much success using WebMD as a medical resource.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:15 PM
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In my business, I have been blessed to become friends with a beautiful young Muslim woman living in Australia and we've been working together to put an end to the practice of female genital mutilation, so I am fully aware that there are some practices that are more culturally based as opposed to being dictated by the Koran. She has used the phrase "religion of peace" several times, which I find highly ironic because of her lifestyle. She is in fact living in Australia because she wanted to go to school, go out clubbing, and not have to marry her cousin. If she were to go back home, she would undoubtedly be killed for the way she has behaved.

Abudullah, I would like you to clarify something for me. You said that many Muslims are ignorant of their own religion. How can this be when Muslim students in the Middle-east learn to read by MEMORIZING the Koran?

My.Mind: Don't like my links? Here you go my friend, take your pick of hundreds. I just picked the two near the top.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by My.mind.is.mine
 


Indeed. While it is true that Muslims believe that Islam is ad-deen as-saleem (a peaceful way of life; commonly mistranslated as "religion of peace"), we do not just walk around saying, "Islam is a religion of peace. Islam is a religion of peace. Islam is a religion of peace."

And people need to understand what that peace means. Does that mean we are never angry or do not believe in self-defense? Does that mean we believe in "If someone slaps you turn the other cheek"?

No. The peace that Islam provides is INNER peace. It is peace through submission to our Creator. And when we achieve this inner peace for real it shines on the outside. Muslims who commit acts of aggressive violence do not have this inner peace. That is obvious. They do not have this relationship with their Creator. They have not fully submitted to Allah.

Muslims gain peace (salam) through submission (islam). And the root of Islam is SLM which comes from both the words for submit and peace. So a Muslim is not only "One who submits to Allah" but also "One who has attained inner peace."

Finally, allow me to put it this way. Two lines from one of my poems:

"Let it be known that I'm a pacifist/
But peace without self-defense is hazardous/"

The Qur'an teaches us to NEVER be the aggressor. But if we are attacked we are within our rights to defend ourselves. It is our duty to defend ourselves. But one the person who has attacked that we are defending ourselves against has surrendered, we are not to keep attacking him.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by TTAA2012
If she were to go back home, she would undoubtedly be killed for the way she has behaved.


Well, again, the actions of Muslims do not always sync with the Word of Allah, the Qur'an.



Abudullah, I would like you to clarify something for me. You said that many Muslims are ignorant of their own religion. How can this be when Muslim students in the Middle-east learn to read by MEMORIZING the Koran?


Keep in mind that memorization is not the same as understanding. One can memorize something and still be ignorant to what it truly says/means. Furthermore, they memorize as children. That does not mean as they get older they still remember it.

I hope this has clarified for you.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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Now, TTAA2012, I'm afraid I have to turn in for the night. Thanks for the discussion. Insha'Allah it can be continued tomorrow. Feel free to U2U me any time if you have questions also.

On a final note, though, I'd like to also provide this Wikipedia article regarding the S-L-M root. I think you may find it rather simplistic yet informative.



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:32 PM
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use search to find similar threads, you are not the first person to cry and moan about certain things in this world



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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I know that taqiyya and kitman, as lying is called in Islam, is permitted in Islam. I understand that Islam permits Muslims to lie about anything and everything in order to advance Islam. That tenet of Islam suggests that Muhammad practiced taqiyya in order to advance Islam. Muslims are even allowed to lie and say that taqiyya is not permitted by that would just be Muslims practicing taqiyya. Not only was Muhammad permitted to lie to all Muslims about Islam but immams are permitted to practice taqiyya to other Muslims as long as they personally deem that it advances Islam. The really terrific part of it all is that Muslims actually believe that Allah permits lying. Muslims actually admit that Allah approves of taqiyya and is, therefore, a lying spirit but then turn right around and claim that God and Allah are the same. Common sense generally kicks in at this point and makes most logical beings think...hmmm...God is supremely good, so how or why would he approve of taqiyya? but I imagine that must be where reason begins and ends in Islam because the simple truth is that God does not lie nor does he approve of lying. Islam is a political system based on taqiyya. The one world government practices taqiyya in order to deceive Muslims but its not very hard to deceive Muslims since their faith is based on taqiyya and kitman.

The very sad thing is that Muslims are lied to and told that jihad and taqiyya are going to earn them a place in heaven. However, why would God accept a bunch of murderous and lying people in heaven? Murderers/jihadists and liars/taqiyya practitioners go to hell to be with the murderous and lying spirit known as Satan/Lucifer. I have no idea how or why Muslims can believe in a religion that sanctions murder and lying. Of course, this is when Muslims chime in and try to deflect attention away from their own wickedness by bringing up the crusades. However, the crusades were perpetrated by the Vatican and the Vatican is not a Christian organization. The Vatican is a political entity, a lot like Islam come think of it, that pretends to be religious but is really just a tool of the governments to control people. The sooner Muslims realize that they have been duped into believing a so called religion that is based on taqiyya and kitman, the better off the world will be.
edit on 25-7-2012 by chizeled because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by samsamm9
Did ATS become a haven for Anti-Islamic propaganda ?
This is getting really old dude.



ALADDIN is NOT a TERRORIST how DARE you!!!!!
He was an adventurer!!!! He was totally flying in on his carpet to whisk me away, some day....
x


_______________________________________________

Seriously...... what is this site coming to!?!?
If ats is the ultimate litmus test (which I consider it to be personally) then you have all failed miserably every time you try to convince the other party to come on over! which is essentially what you all do.
You just have the worst convincing skills ever! it's never going to happen for you because you can't control yourself, just like the extreme versions of what you are talking about.

All of us non religious types can't really see what's so bloody difficult about getting along and getting on ffs!
If you can't do it on a web site how do you expect us animals on the ground to get it together?!
Huh?!

now remember!!!

one needed a heart............

one needed a brain........

the final one needed only courage....

Every single religion needs to remember this, and it would be a truly stupid thing, to discover this all just came down to a case of sibling rivalry,
and the mother and father of us all, shake their heads in abject despair and hopelessness.

Just my opinion but I think they're still waiting for you to catch up.

But just so my own point of view is clear, I will NEVER enter your church, you will not force me or make me conform, verbally or physically or mentally, ever. The day I was born I entered the/my church, your church, our church his church, and I'm personally learning my religion from all of you.

Has any one got the figures on people actually leaving their religions/churches(buildings) yet?
wait for it.....that's what your saying/implying is needed to get over this hump.
If one has to have intervention shouldn't all? Think about that.

You know....maybe if they/you got out and saw the beauty that IS every where else as well, maybe they/you would stop then. It does not come down to the words in your book for they can never truly describe all there is. But you don't shut up long enough to hear the rest, how can you hear anything past the sound of your own self righteous voices!
True beauty is not covered from sight, (and I think the middle eastern women covered, is beautiful and mysterious and dare I say it, sexy, if this is her choice (only!), so be beautiful just as you are

Your lucky it's not up to me....

Be Godly, he doesn't drop arseholes on the spot, clearly, or they would all be dead already....be Godly and stop your God bothering!

sorry for ranting, couldn't help myself again! (= loss of control)
huh

(ahem! God, only you have permission to strike me down where I sit if I have spoken out of turn)
Thank you for listening



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by chizeled
I know that taqiyya and kitman, as lying is called in Islam, is permitted in Islam. I understand that Islam permits Muslims to lie about anything and everything in order to advance Islam. That tenet of Islam suggests that Muhammad practiced taqiyya in order to advance Islam. Muslims are even allowed to lie and say that taqiyya is not permitted by that would just be Muslims practicing taqiyya. Not only was Muhammad permitted to lie to all Muslims about Islam but immams are permitted to practice taqiyya to other Muslims as long as they personally deem that it advances Islam. The really terrific part of it all is that Muslims actually believe that Allah permits lying. Muslims actually admit that Allah approves of taqiyya and is, therefore, a lying spirit but then turn right around and claim that God and Allah are the same. Common sense generally kicks in at this point and makes most logical beings think...hmmm...God is supremely good, so how or why would he approve of taqiyya? but I imagine that must be where reason begins and ends in Islam because the simple truth is that God does not lie nor does he approve of lying. Islam is a political system based on taqiyya. The one world government practices taqiyya in order to deceive Muslims but its not very hard to deceive Muslims since their faith is based on taqiyya and kitman.

The very sad thing is that Muslims are lied to and told that jihad and taqiyya are going to earn them a place in heaven. However, why would God accept a bunch of murderous and lying people in heaven? Murderers/jihadists and liars/taqiyya practicers go to hell to be with the murderous and lying spirit known as Satan/Lucifer. I have no idea how or why Muslims can believe in a religion that sanctions murder and lying. Of course, this is when Muslims chime in and try to deflect attention away from their own wickedness by bringing up the crusades. However, the crusades were perpetrated by the Vatican and the Vatican is not a Christian organization. The Vatican is a political entity, a lot like Islam come think of it, that pretends to be religious but is really just a tool of the governments to control people. The sooner Muslims realize that they have been duped into believing a so called religion that is based on taqiyya and kitman, the better off the world will be.


The majority of your post is false...... I can't even believe it...

IF there is this unequivocal approval of lying, where is it? Please show me where it says it. FURTHERMORE, where does it say that a muslim can lie about the permissibility of lying? Better yet, prove all of what you say... Or ANY of what you say...



edit on 25-7-2012 by My.mind.is.mine because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by TTAA2012
 





In my business, I have been blessed to become friends with a beautiful young Muslim woman living in Australia and we've been working together to put an end to the practice of female genital mutilation, so I am fully aware that there are some practices that are more culturally based as opposed to being dictated by the Koran. She has used the phrase "religion of peace" several times, which I find highly ironic because of her lifestyle. She is in fact living in Australia because she wanted to go to school, go out clubbing, and not have to marry her cousin. If she were to go back home, she would undoubtedly be killed for the way she has behaved.


I think the whole "religion of peace" mantra is talking about the peace afforded by the grave if you ask me. You see one muslim talking about the religion of peace and you look down the street and another one is shooting someone full of holes and yelling "Allah Ahkbar" and indeed the man being shotup, a few minutes later is peaceful...in death. People that get blown to bits find that peace alot quicker and more painful.



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