World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?

reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786


Fact






Denying my ignorance, why thank you so very much. You seem to think you have a copyright on FACT, but I would say it is mere opinion.

------------------------------------------------------------------


But anyway, it is the weekend, time for me to go to the Farmers Market.

reply to post by MidnightTide


No one is here to force feed you beliefs and as it stands I'm sure the OP couldn't care less about your opinion but you asked questions and you got answers, If you are not satisfied with them why don't you just read the Quran? It won't kill you to do so.

This coming from someone that's not a Muslim.

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
You know, when I think about it the subject heading of the OP is a good question. What DO you really know about Islam? It seems to me like the OP, and many of these anti-Muslim types on this thread, don't know much about Islam at all. They know what they have been TAUGHT, but they don't know what Islam teaches. And it doesn't seem like they really want to know. It's easier to hate something if you remain uninformed about it.

I think this goes back to what we had discussed previously in this thread about being spoon fed hate. People listen to the anti-Muslim propaganda and buy into it completely never even bothering to find the facts out for themselves. I think the real threat from Islam to these people isn't the violence or extremist. Its the fact that more and more people convert to Islam everyday. They fear the death of their religion through loss of practitioners. I wonder if this is how the pagans felt when their beliefs were crushed. The real question here I think is what are they really afraid of?

reply to post by MidnightTide


Um, no sir. I use facts. And you cannot dispute that. You haven't proven one of my statements false, especially in regards to Islam's teachings vs. the actions of Muslims.

Have fun at your Farmer's Market. I am done with you anyway. I know when it's pointless to respond to someone any further. Once you started lying about Muslim extremists where you live, I knew your ship was sinking.

reply to post by DeadSnow


DeadSnow, people like him won't read the Quran. Being ignorant of what it says and continuing to believe in myths about an entire group of people is much easier than actually taking the time to learn something.

Originally posted by TRGreer
The real question here I think is what are they really afraid of?

I think they are afraid of actually learning the truth about Islam and having their whole world rocked. So many people who had negative ideas about Islam, upon actually reading the Quran and about Islam factually, ended up converting to Islam because they saw the beauty and simplicity of the message.

Originally posted by DeadSnow

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by DeadSnow

 

Yeshua/Jesus DID ressurrect from the dead! He was G-d in flesh
and paid our sin debt!
The catholic church corrupted christianity and changed the sabbath
to sunday.I don't celebrate christmas and easter either.

Please show me a where in the Bible it says he was God?, Or was this just a misinterpretation by modern scholars? The trinity and crucifixion tales go back thousands of years before Jesus ever lived.

Indeed! back to the Egyptian God-man Osiris or the Greek incarnation Dionysus. He was also know as Attis in Asia minor, Adonis in Syria, Bacchus in Italy, Mithras in Persia, and so on. All of these God-men for the most part share the same story. The story of Jesus with the exception that they predate him by 100's to 1000's of years. Born to virgins. Half man half God. Crucified on a cross to save man from his sins. All this fighting. All the hate. All just branches of the same tree. I think the pagan Gnostics and the mysteries had it right personally.

Originally posted by TRGreer


I think this goes back to what we had discussed previously in this thread about being spoon fed hate. People listen to the anti-Muslim propaganda and buy into it completely never even bothering to find the facts out for themselves. I think the real threat from Islam to these people isn't the violence or extremist. Its the fact that more and more people convert to Islam everyday. They fear the death of their religion through loss of practitioners. I wonder if this is how the pagans felt when their beliefs were crushed. The real question here I think is what are they really afraid of?

I'll try this one last time...

I'm not exhibiting any hate here, I'm only interested at getting to the truth of the issue.

The only reason Im being persistant it that you, Cooler, and Deadsnow seem to be very reasonable people who know way more about Islam than me, so I was looking for an honest answer from you.

I'll just stick to one point. My concern with Islam is that a seeming large amount of moderate Muslims call for violence for rather innoculous things.

My example is Salman Rushdie, A death sentence (fatwa) was called on him in 1988 because he wrote a book that gave a different version of Muhammed in a fictional sense. In addition to the unrefutable fact that many many Muslims had rallies in support of this, in my research, it seems that almost every Islamic group, even the moderate ones, either supported this or refused to condemn it.

That is what concerns me. I'm not afraid of what the Qu'ran actually says, I'm afraid of what the people following it are actually doing.

My questions are this; am I wrong in my reading of this support, and if so can you provide me with some sites that show this? Are you in favor of this fatwa personally, and if not does it concern you that so many moderates are, and can you see how this type of action would frighten nonbelivers?

Originally posted by Grambler

Originally posted by TRGreer


I think this goes back to what we had discussed previously in this thread about being spoon fed hate. People listen to the anti-Muslim propaganda and buy into it completely never even bothering to find the facts out for themselves. I think the real threat from Islam to these people isn't the violence or extremist. Its the fact that more and more people convert to Islam everyday. They fear the death of their religion through loss of practitioners. I wonder if this is how the pagans felt when their beliefs were crushed. The real question here I think is what are they really afraid of?

I'll try this one last time...

I'm not exhibiting any hate here, I'm only interested at getting to the truth of the issue.

The only reason Im being persistant it that you, Cooler, and Deadsnow seem to be very reasonable people who know way more about Islam than me, so I was looking for an honest answer from you.

I'll just stick to one point. My concern with Islam is that a seeming large amount of moderate Muslims call for violence for rather innoculous things.

My example is Salman Rushdie, A death sentence (fatwa) was called on him in 1988 because he wrote a book that gave a different version of Muhammed in a fictional sense. In addition to the unrefutable fact that many many Muslims had rallies in support of this, in my research, it seems that almost every Islamic group, even the moderate ones, either supported this or refused to condemn it.

That is what concerns me. I'm not afraid of what the Qu'ran actually says, I'm afraid of what the people following it are actually doing.

My questions are this; am I wrong in my reading of this support, and if so can you provide me with some sites that show this? Are you in favor of this fatwa personally, and if not does it concern you that so many moderates are, and can you see how this type of action would frighten nonbelivers?

I think you are making the mistake of singling out one religion. If you want to look into dangerous extremist why do you limit your search to one religion or belief. Shouldn't we be concerned with all violent extremist from all religions/belief? This notion that one religions/beliefs violent extremist are more dangerous than anothers is absurd from my perspective. I see Christian rallys on the news every day calling for the destruction of rival religions. Calling for the death of gays. Urging followers to fire bomb abortion clinics and assassinate abortion doctors and anyone else who doesn't follow their doctrines. Using their holy scripture to justify hate and fear. Do I really need to name the countless televangelist that go on TV nightly calling for hate and intolerance? Why are you not concerned with these violent extremist? Shouldn't we be looking at the bigger picture here? The only way to preserve justice and peace is to treat each person as an individual. We cannot and must not punish one person for the crimes of another. To say every Muslim is a violent extremist would be like saying every christian is a saint. We both know this simply isn't true. I have to say that I am no expert on Islam. From what I have read I don't personally believe it is anymore violent than Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other belief. Cool has posted some great reference links so maybe go back and look into those. Find your own truth. What I do know is this ... When you take an individuals rights to peaceably practice their beliefs you forfeit that right for yourself. It wont be long before someone decides that you are a radical extremist and then they come to take your belief from you. This has happened time and again throughout history. It seems to be repeating itself now. As long as a person lives in peace love tolerance and acceptance then why should it matter how they came to that point. Maybe the best question to be asking here is not why does Islam have so many violent extremist, Maybe the better question is why does the world have so many violent extremist. I don't know if this helped you or answered any questions but it is what it is. Love Bill Hicks by the way!

Just wanted to add that I wasn't ignoring you or your post I was just very involved with my discussion with Charles.

reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786

If you look into so-called Muslim violence, it's almost ALWAYS based on politics, not religion. Extremists just use religion as their excuse to get people, especially the young and impressionable, to rally behind their cause.

What a load of crap. To say that Muslims are somehow being 'political' when they enact Jihad against any and all who disagree with Islam is tantamount to lying.

Jihadi violence is not 'political' - it is brutal, indiscriminate, evil and often perverse in its operation, and is justified by the writings of the Koran and various fatwas. I know that many clerics down the centuries have explained to Islamists that the victory of Islam is the primary pinnacle of Islam. Therefore, the forbidden becomes permissible if it supports Jihad in any way, shape or form.

SO... Lying, while forbidden in the Koran, is permissible in the context of promoting Islam, equal to the use of force is guile, and however you are able to promote the advance of Islam, you are encouraged to do so.

Therefore, I know that your religion permits lying, and offers a reassurance that it is in the will of Allah for you to lie if it supports the cause of Islam's advance. Therefore, you are doing a service to Islam if you lie about anything which might promote the cause of Islam. Have I made my point? Why should we trust anything you say, when the evidence (and there's loads) clearly stands against the ''It's political'' nonsense you just spouted?

The politics of the fundamental teachings of the Koran - 'politics' meaning the way in which a group views its responsibilities to each other and to the nations around and about them - is to enforce adherence to Islam within the Islamic state, and to wage war against neighbouring states, until:

a) an uneasy stalemate is reached (Israel),
b) they all convert,
c) they're all dead.

And why do you call it 'so-called Muslim violence'? It is actual, real violence, perpetrated on a daily basis, with adherence to religion cited as the justification. Below is a non-exhaustive list of places under attack from Jihadis since 9-11:

India and the Sudan and Algeria and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Arkansas and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Georgia and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Illinois and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Afghanistan and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Mali and Angola and the Ukraine and Uganda and North Carolina and Germany and Arizona and Lebanon and Iran and Kazakhstan and Sweden and Azerbaijan and Iraq and Scotland and Macedonia and Bulgaria and...

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who
are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,
and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty"

Qur'an, Sura 9:123

The only thing 'political' about fundamentalist Islamic Jihadis is that they are affecting nations, and that requires a political response from the nations which find themselves under attack.. It also warrants military pressure against 'hotspots' of Jihadi activity/ training areas.

Cooler, if you expect me to believe you believe Jihad is 'political', then you are sorely mistaken.

I know you have the balance of public support on ATS, because people have bought into the subtle propaganda which denotes the actions of Jihadis as those of a deranged minority. However, it will be my task in this thread to prove that violence as the basic building block of confrontation is a propensity held by the majority of Muslim males all around the globe, and that the violence we see reported here in the West is but a trickle of what is really going on.

I also intend to gradually build up my theological argument - but that is of lesser priority than convincing people that 'tolerance' will be the death of us. Literally. Don't misunderstand me though - it is not my intention to issue a call to arms against Islamists.

At some point, the Truth will become clear, through the simple act of broadcasting the actual evidence of what is going on, minute by minute, day by day, in fundamental Islamic families, villages, towns, cities, nations and regions.

The Devil is in the detail, Cooler. The evidence speaks for itself, and I'm just getting started.

God desires ''Truth in the inmost places'' - no excuses, no justification - no lying.

reply to post by DeadSnow

You know in some parts of the world Christians still go on witch hunts, the search function is your friend. Does this mean we demonize Christians as a whole or judge individuals?

We can demonize christians from the countries where that happens. Its not like I particularly care about christianity.

As for the whippings, don't act like Christians do not fight or even beat/mistreat their wives...Once again this depends on Character and not religion. I'm sure you will find Buddhists and atheists that do the same.

But I highly doubt I will find a christian or atheist country where 80+% support stoning for adultery.

Why the fear towards Muslim extremists then, we should focus more on rebel groups now shouldn't we?

African rebels do not immigrate en masse into western Europe.

reply to post by TRGreer


So these rallies then.. Any links to show us where and when they take place? If you see them ''every day'' they must be incredibly common and mightily well-populated. Heck, the way you write, it sounds like the majority of Christians around the world are calling for the death of gays, and the destruction of other religions!! That's scary stuff!!

Thing is, it's not true. An infinitesimally small minority of 'Christians' are involved in such rallies, and the VAST MAJORITY of Christians do not consider the perpetrators (eg - Westboro Baptist) to be actual Christians. They consider them to be false apostles and deceivers, who are in it for the money. Did you know that the Westboro Baptist Church is actually based around a family of legal professionals, who are trying to incite violence against their group, in order to file lawsuits against those who are (very understandably) driven to aggression against them??

Bet you did know the truth about the WBC, but you're massaging the facts, as someone else in the thread seems to be doing. It's okay though, you are allowed to massage the facts - or even lie - in order to ensure that Islam is portrayed in a positive light.

Keep up the good work!

PS - when was the last time a Christian blew up innocent women and children in a shopping mall, or tortured his own wife for a month before shooting her at point blank range in the head - because she tried to escape his brutality and abuse? Or when did a Christian last throw acid into a beautiful woman's face - because she had the gall to try and run her own business in order to support her disabled husband? What about the last time a Christian permitted sexual intercourse with animals - so long as he doesn't sell the meat to people in his own village? Or what about the last time a Christian permitted an 80 year old man to marry and have intercourse with a nine year old girl?

Christians don't do such things. Islamists do. The evidence is available, and I will be bringing a lot to the table over the coming weeks and months. I feel strongly about these problems, and I want to enlighten people as to the TRUTH of what is going on, and what we are expected to accept as 'tolerable'...

There is something fundamentally wrong with Islam - ie the actual doctrine - when such behaviours are considered lawful, and are even encouraged by the officiating 'religious leaders', and accepted by the populace in general.

reply to post by Maslo


Good points.

Deadsnow claims the 'search function is our friend'. Sure, we can likely find a few Christian minorities who engage on practices deemed silly and nasty in modern times here in the West.

But we can also find a SHEDLOAD of evidence that there are some lovely Christian organisations out there that do a whole range of good things for millions of people around the world, regardless of creed, colour or race.

Yes, some Christians are dim, judgmental, and out-of-touch. Some are hypocritical, and some are living with a perverse amount of wealth while others around them starve. Far too many Christians do not live as Christ taught them to.

However, the MAJORITY are peace-loving, hard-working, charitable, family-oriented and friendly to all their neighbours.


Deadsnow: The search function certainly isn't a friend to anyone who is trying to hide the true nature of the majority of Islamists, in terms of what is actually promoted and encouraged in its followers.

Originally posted by TRGreer


I think you are making the mistake of singling out one religion. If you want to look into dangerous extremist why do you limit your search to one religion or belief.

Thanks for the response. I agree with you that there are extremist in all religions. But the point of my post was that I'm not as concerned with the extremist of a religion as much as there mainstream views. Do I think that the majority of Muslims are suicide bombers? Absolutely not!

I am concerned with the fact that it seems to be a mainstream belief in Islam that its ok to kill a man because he wrote a fictional book that insulted them. Note the key word, MAINSTREAM. If this was just a few loons saying this, it wouldn't bother me that much. But from what I'm seeing almost all groups endorsed or refused to condemn this action.

I dont see the mainstream mebers of other religions really condoning anything like that.

Shouldn't we be concerned with all violent extremist from all religions/belief? This notion that one religions/beliefs violent extremist are more dangerous than anothers is absurd from my perspective. I see Christian rallys on the news every day calling for the destruction of rival religions. Calling for the death of gays. Urging followers to fire bomb abortion clinics and assassinate abortion doctors and anyone else who doesn't follow their doctrines. Using their holy scripture to justify hate and fear. Do I really need to name the countless televangelist that go on TV nightly calling for hate and intolerance? Why are you not concerned with these violent extremist?

Certainly I am concerned. I dont suscribe to any religion, and I find any hate that is justified by religion to be appaling. However, you said the key word, EXTREMIST. Again, I dont see other religions that have a mainstream view to support killing someone fpr being offensive.

Shouldn't we be looking at the bigger picture here? The only way to preserve justice and peace is to treat each person as an individual. We cannot and must not punish one person for the crimes of another. To say every Muslim is a violent extremist would be like saying every christian is a saint. We both know this simply isn't true. I have to say that I am no expert on Islam. From what I have read I don't personally believe it is anymore violent than Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other belief.

Oh I would never say every Muslim is an extremist. And I bet judging from the posts here that the people defending Islam here would be against that fatwa on Rushdie. But I think its worth having a serious discussion if giving death sentences for insulting Islam is a common belief amogst its believers. I would think that the reasonable practioners of Islam would want to deal with this more than anybody.

Cool has posted some great reference links so maybe go back and look into those. Find your own truth. What I do know is this ... When you take an individuals rights to peaceably practice their beliefs you forfeit that right for yourself. It wont be long before someone decides that you are a radical extremist and then they come to take your belief from you. This has happened time and again throughout history. It seems to be repeating itself now. As long as a person lives in peace love tolerance and acceptance then why should it matter how they came to that point. Maybe the best question to be asking here is not why does Islam have so many violent extremist, Maybe the better question is why does the world have so many violent extremist.

Yeah thanks for the links I have been reading some of them. Im not advocating not allowing people to peacefully assemble to pratice Islam. Im sure some do, but they are extremist themselves. I guess part of the reason for my posts was to point out how normal people that aren't bigoted can still have fear of Islam. Not all of it is based on irrationality. Maybe by talking about it we can hope to settle these issues.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


I AM NOT YELLING, I AM MAKING MY POST BOLD AND IN CAPITALS BECAUSE I DON'T WANT YOU TO BE ABLE TO IGNORE IT

WHY??

BECAUSE I AM ABOUT TO BLOW OUT OF WATER ENTIRE AGENDA OF THIS THREAD.

AS BACKWARDS AS SOME MUSLIMS ARE, JUST LIKE THERE ARE PLENTY OF BACKWARDS JEWS, CHRISTIANS

THE DAMAGE AND WARS ARE COMPLETELY DONE BY NON MUSLIMS

Well who do you think has 800 military bases world wide......THE USA

Who attacked multitude of countries in just a few years.....THE USA

Who has the BEST army in the world........THE USA

Who is responsible for 9/11.........CIA and MOSSAD, google building 7 and dancing Israelis.

US and Israel are salivating at prospect of Attacking Iran

Russia has 10 or less military bases outside of borders, China has 1.

Expansion of Israeli borders, just 9 days ago again 500 new homes approved in newly occupied land.

AIPAC having virtually complete clout and control over US politics, congress every year signs letter of complete obedience to Israel.

US private central bank is 96% Jewish owned, current chairman's full name is Ben Shalom Bernanke

AND YOU PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA TAKE YOU OUT.

YOU BLIND FALSE PATRIOTS

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


christianwatchindia.wordpress.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.coolove.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.religiondispatches.org...

STOP! HAMMER TIME!

It’s not a pretty story, and it is often used by people who don’t intend to do pretty things. In the book of 1 Samuel (15:3), God said to Saul:
“Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”

Saul dutifully exterminated the women, the children, the babies and all of the men – but then he spared the king. He also saved some of the tastier looking calves and lambs. God was furious with him for his failure to finish the job.

The story of the Amalekites has been used to justify genocide throughout the ages. According to Pennsylvania State University Professor Philip Jenkins, a contributing editor for the American Conservative, the Puritans used this passage when they wanted to get rid of the Native American tribes. Catholics used it against Protestants, Protestants against Catholics. “In Rwanda in 1994, Hutu preachers invoked King Saul’s memory to justify the total slaughter of their Tutsi neighbors,” writes Jenkins in his 2011 book, Laying Down the Sword: Why We Can’t Ignore the Bible’s Violent Verses.

This fall, more than 100,000 American public school children, ranging in age from four to 12, are scheduled to receive instruction in the lessons of Saul and the Amalekites in the comfort of their own public school classrooms. The instruction, which features in the second week of a weekly “Bible study” course, will come from the Good News Club, an after-school program sponsored by a group called the Child Evangelism Fellowship (CEF). The aim of the CEF is to convert young children to a fundamentalist form of the Christian faith and recruit their peers to the club.

Christian fundamentalist “Good News Club” promotes genocide of nonbelievers in public schools
www.weseekthetruth.org...

www.philadelphiaweekly.com...
www.opposingviews.com...
www.kshb.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
notachristian.org...

Just thought this one was funny.
www.landoverbaptist.net...

There is so much more! Was this really necessary? The more this argument drags the more I am drawn to one conclusion. This fear of Islam isn't about extremist violence. Its about Christianitys fear of no longer being the most dominate religion in the world.

reply to post by petertheskinny


Thats more to the point! I am glade you posted that. Sad thing is those policies, Those wars, Those atrocities were committed without my consent. I am an American citizen last time I checked. Sad.

Thank you Archbishop of Canterbury . The whole problem with the world is that stupid and ignorant are always so certain of themselves, but learnered men so full of doubts.

Adopt sharia law in Britain, says the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams

The Archbishop of Canterbury was embroiled in a fierce political and religious row last night after he called for aspects of Islamic sharia law to be adopted in Britain. Your View: Is Sharia law in Britain unavoidable? Damian Thompson: Williams' authority is in tatters Leader: The archbishop's inept intervention Dr Rowan Williams said that it "seems inevitable" that elements of the Muslim law, such as divorce proceedings, would be incorporated into British legislation.

Originally posted by petertheskinny
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

 

I AM NOT YELLING, I AM MAKING MY POST BOLD AND IN CAPITALS BECAUSE I DON'T WANT YOU TO BE ABLE TO IGNORE IT

WHY??

BECAUSE I AM ABOUT TO BLOW OUT OF WATER ENTIRE AGENDA OF THIS THREAD.

AS BACKWARDS AS SOME MUSLIMS ARE, JUST LIKE THERE ARE PLENTY OF BACKWARDS JEWS, CHRISTIANS

THE DAMAGE AND WARS ARE COMPLETELY DONE BY NON MUSLIMS

Well who do you think has 800 military bases world wide......THE USA

AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

Who attacked multitude of countries in just a few years.....THE USA


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

Who has the BEST army in the world........THE USA


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

Who is responsible for 9/11.........CIA and MOSSAD, google building 7 and dancing Israelis.


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

US and Israel are salivating at prospect of Attacking Iran


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

Russia has 10 or less military bases outside of borders, China has 1.


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

Expansion of Israeli borders, just 9 days ago again 500 new homes approved in newly occupied land.


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

AIPAC having virtually complete clout and control over US politics, congress every year signs letter of complete obedience to Israel.


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

US private central bank is 96% Jewish owned, current chairman's full name is Ben Shalom Bernanke


AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH KNOWING ABOUT ISLAM HOW?

AND YOU PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA TAKE YOU OUT.

YOU BLIND FALSE PATRIOTS

Oh, and I wasn't yelling, I just wanted to get your attention as to WHAT THE BL00dy thread is supposed to be about. And NO! I am not in favour of Jews, christians or any other salivating dogma INCLUDING your pet islam. They are ALL pathetic. The ALL indoctrinate. They ALL have NO TOLERANCE. So get back to the TOPIC. What you know about islam. You know by your readings, I know simply by looking at the backward state that muzzies are expected to live in. Hell! look at all of the oil over in the ME and look at the poverty in those countries. You lick islams ar5e, I lick nobory's ar5e