Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?

page: 15
39
<< 12  13  14    16  17  18 >>

log in

join

posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 12:43 PM
link   
I'm not anti-Muslim.

But I was surprised to hear some young Muslims talking about atheists in a fast food restaurant recently.
They sounded like educated and intelligent young men, but then I started catching snipits of their conversation.
While I sat near them and ate, they talked about cutting Richard Dawkins head off and other unsavory acts of violence.

I have to say I know a few Muslim people and I don't have any problems with what religion a person is but I was a bit shocked by the things I heard these young men saying. I've never heard any hardcore Christians or whatever talk this kind of hatred, and I know a few of them too.




posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 12:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine
reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


Bro, if you haven't noticed, I bowed out. I've been tryna debate with people on here since 2010 about Islam, and they don't WANT to hear it. So at this point, I'm gonna enjoy the energy of the holy month, make some dhikr, send salawat, and urge you to do the same. Folks on here can ruin the entire vibe. God bless.


My thoughts exactly brother ! No time or energy to waste on these Islamophobe and intolerant people.
Even if you pointed to them the "Heaven's gate" they would still hate, the shaitan is very powerful.

Ramadan karim brother !



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 12:54 PM
link   
First to say I read Kur'an very often, so I will not write any misleading info about any matter.

For the first that I want to say Judaism, Christianity, Islam in the first time there was no name of the religions.
People gave the names after some time. It was the same religion to believe in One God.
Jesus was never said "Believe in me" ! He was saying "Believe into My and Your Master".
Islam came as an update to monotheistic religions that I mentioned previous.
Islam also confirms that those holly books came from the same place, from Creator of the universe.
If you take scientific proof that KUR'AN is not the human creation, because it have double protection method of keeping it untouched from change. First method was to learn it all with melody. Another method was to protect it mathematically. It is protected with number 19. There is a book with title "Secret of number 19" that proves system of protection. So literally you cannot change any sentence because number of words listed in that page will be not split with number 19 to produce whole number without decimals.

There is some indications that people has changed some things in Tora and Bible. And there is note that all humans that brought holly books was only God's messengers. Also is stated that Christians because of great love to Jesus made him God, what is wrong. There will be no more religions after Islam was stated also.
Islam is the only religion that made balance between materialism and soul evolvement.
Classic case in the western world is that man have millions and he commit suicide after all. So probably money and things are not everything in ours life's.

There is no force in Islam.
It Only states if muslims was attacked they have right to defend itself, but if attackers stops it is stated "Don't go for revenge".
Also the most important thing is that Islam states that Justice will always prevail on the end.
So every Muslim must follow justice ultimately.
Islam states.
"EVERYTHING WHAT IS HAPPENING IS WITH THE WILL OF GOD"
With other words everything what is happening is predetermination of God.
So if some prophets like Nostradamus can see the future that is mean that this is the truth.

So all humans are brothers. Those that works for non humans will be removed from the planet very soon.
They sold us for advanced technology but they will suffer after all.

Judgment day is coming faster than we think, where all humans will stay in front of Creator of the universe and will be responsible for all our deeds.

Punishment will be horror for those who created wars and mess around humanity.

God bless you all.




edit on 27-7-2012 by Galactic because: typo



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 01:04 PM
link   
reply to post by seabhac-rua
 


Well you can't judge all Muslims by what some young punks say and just because you haven't heard Christians say stuff like this doesn't mean that they don't. You are basically merely going by what you've personally experienced. I could tell you that I've heard Christians and atheists make violent suggestions about people of other faiths.



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 01:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by petertheskinny


And what about Jewish control of western media.

If you print a cartoon making fun of some Rabbi, you can kiss your job goodby in 24 hours


Okay, I'm not so sure of this, but I'll take it at face value. There are still two very important differences.

One, loss of a job isn't death like in the examples I've given.

Second, this would be some elites secretively doing this. In the fatwa of Rushdie, you had a huge number of supposed moderate Mulsims and their leaders either calling for the death (or refusing to condemn those who were) because he worte a book that told a different version of Muhammed.

Look, your preaching to the choir about the abuses in christianity and judaism (Im an atheist). And I'm with you about Isreal probably having something to do with 9-11. But the differnce is these incidents seem to be a few elites acting out in there religion, just like its just a small portion of Muslims that are suicide bombers. I won't judge the whole group based on the actions of a few.

But in both the Danish cartoons and the incident of Rushdie, it seemed to me that it was a very mainstream view of Islam to allow the violence.

Again, perhaps someone defending Islam can show me evidence that this wasn't the case, I'm open to see it. But as of right now, it seems no one even attempted to address this.



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 01:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
I'm not anti-Muslim.

But I was surprised to hear some young Muslims talking about atheists in a fast food restaurant recently.
They sounded like educated and intelligent young men, but then I started catching snipits of their conversation.
While I sat near them and ate, they talked about cutting Richard Dawkins head off and other unsavory acts of violence.

I have to say I know a few Muslim people and I don't have any problems with what religion a person is but I was a bit shocked by the things I heard these young men saying. I've never heard any hardcore Christians or whatever talk this kind of hatred, and I know a few of them too.


Okay I got sucked back in because of this blatant turning a blind eye to the truth. You mean to tell me you never heard a Christian calling for the assassination of Obama?(this is just one example there are many more) I have. many times. Look, I don't like hammering away at any religion but it really burns me to see one religion or belief singled out when there are hundreds more that are just as bad if not worse. Its hypocrisy at its worst and it makes someone spewing the hate look as bad as the the picture they attempt to paint. Its especially offensive when they claim to be of a certain faith and act like they have no extremist twisting the message of their beliefs. Wake up! people are imperfect in all faiths and beliefs. Stop pointing the finger at one religion when you damn well know that yours has its own bad element.


Just wanted to add that pointing out that Christians don't talk about cutting off someones head is absolutely right. They talk about shooting someone instead. Think about it.
edit on 27-7-2012 by TRGreer because: Added a thought.



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 01:45 PM
link   
reply to post by TRGreer
 

There have been a few times in this thread when I've wondered if communication is culturally controlled. I was hoping to talk with people, not talked at and ignored.


You mean to tell me you never heard a Christian calling for the assassination of Obama?(this is just one example there are many more) I have. many times.
The problem, at least for me, isn't the religious affiliation of the person thinking horrible thoughts or doing horrible deeds. The problem is why. I can see that some people are insane, or have violent political differences. But what I'm wondering about is why no one seems to be addressing the argument that in the case of Muslims, far more than with any other group, violence is being done to spread the "true religion," or eliminate those with whom they have religious differences.

Look, I don't like hammering away at any religion but it really burns me to see one religion or belief singled out when there are hundreds more that are just as bad if not worse.
I don't agree. I don't know of dozens of religions that have the type of violence I just mentioned that the Muslims do, let alone hundreds.

Wake up! people are imperfect in all faiths and beliefs. Stop pointing the finger at one religion when you damn well know that yours has its own bad element.
One cannot criticize a religion unless they belong to the "perfect religion" with no faults? So criticizing Islam is not to be allowed? May Muslims criticize Jews?

If I don't understand something, let's work it out. I've tried with another poster without success, but I want to make sure I'm understanding properly. So far, I haven't been handed very attractive examples.
edit on 27-7-2012 by charles1952 because: bracket



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 02:26 PM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 


First off let me say that I am not trying to disrespect you or your opinions. You have been respectful throughout the string as far as I can see BUT I have to say that it is my perspective that you are not truly being honest with yourself and therefore to try to talk this out would be all but impossible. You seem to be a good person and we might be able to have some great discourse on a wide range of topics but until you can admit that just about every religion has extremist factions then there is no real point.

"The problem, at least for me, isn't the religious affiliation of the person thinking horrible thoughts or doing horrible deeds. The problem is why. I can see that some people are insane, or have violent political differences. But what I'm wondering about is why no one seems to be addressing the argument that in the case of Muslims, far more than with any other group, violence is being done to spread the "true religion," or eliminate those with whom they have religious differences."

The above quote is a prime example of being closed minded on the topic. Practitioners of Christianity have murdered and stomped out whole belief systems. This is historical fact and it still goes on today. Could one not make the argument that they are attempting to end Islam right here and now? Be honest. To try and make the case that there are more extremist in Islam is just absurd. Even if this is the case since when does one having more extremist than another lessen the guilt or make one better than the other? This is just a ridiculous concept. Here are some examples of religions with a history of violent extremist. The sad thing is that it could and has been argued that these belief systems all stem from the same tree.

Christianity
Islam
Judaism
Mormonism

Start with those and feel free to explore as I have. Its always better when a person finds answers for themselves.
edit on 27-7-2012 by TRGreer because: Typo



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 03:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by seabhac-rua
 


Well you can't judge all Muslims by what some young punks say and just because you haven't heard Christians say stuff like this doesn't mean that they don't. You are basically merely going by what you've personally experienced. I could tell you that I've heard Christians and atheists make violent suggestions about people of other faiths.


True.

I am going by my personal experience, what else am I supposed to do?

I'll tell you another thing, I worked with a Muslim man and we became good friends, we used to talk about our different philosophies a lot, good conversations a some funny times, he told me himself that he was unused to talking candidly about religious matters and where he was from I would 'probably get killed' for espousing my views about religion in public.

Again, my personal experience, and again I live in a hardcore catholic country, and never once have I heard anybody make any comments like that, either Christians or atheists, I mean who do atheists, as a group, hate?



edit on 27-7-2012 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 04:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

The Quran is LITERALLY the Word of God but that doesn't mean every verse is literal.


I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but claiming that it's the word of God is misleading. The whole premise of Islam is that God gave the Qur'an to Mohammad and that it's been the same book ever since. But it was Gabriel that appeared to him and spoke the book, not God.

/TOA



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 04:25 PM
link   
I have read none of the comments between pages 4 and 14, so bear with me now that I'm back in the thread - I will try to address individual comments over the course of time.

I see that a few of our Islamic ATSers have joined in the debate, and I'm glad they have (though it seems I'm a bit late as two in particular state they are 'bowing out'), because I have a few questions for them later on.
I would like to point out that if to be an Islamaphobe means that you question the moral nature of the fundamental doctrine of the Koran, and find it wanting, and say so publicly, then yes, I am an Islamaphobe. I have a phobia of the fundamental doctrine of the Koran. Why do I have such a phobia? Because I believe that the world which was totally 'in submission' to fundamentalist Islam, would be a hideous place to live, and would offer no joy, or depth of creativity, for expression in the life we found ourselves living. There is no such thing as grace in Islam. Many nation states where fundamentalist Islam is the primary - or official - state religion, are already evidenced as hideous places to live, so I will draw specific attention to the facts concerning such states at a later stage.

Before I post my carefully considered reply to the criticisms leveled during the first four pages of the thread, I would like to issue a sincere 'thank you' to all who have expressed similar concerns - whether you are Atheist, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever. It seems that in the West, we are expected to accept/ 'tolerate', and not criticise Islam, in any way, shape or form. In writing this thread, my primary concern was to expose further and examine in detail the idea of culturally widespread, unquestioning adoption of violence within Islam. In particular, I have some issues with the fundamental doctrine as laid out in the Koran - aspects of doctrine which seem to indicate that the religion was spawned with specific intent, encouraging the development of violent propensity in the followers of Islam.

Additionally, as a secondary area of concern, I want to address particular elements of Koranic doctrine which seek to overthrow adherence to the teachings of Christ, and the ministry/ doctrine of early Christians. The early Christian doctrine was entirely peaceable, and encouraged amicable relations with people of other faiths. Quite unlike the original unadulterated teachings of Mohammed/ the Koran.

If, as Muslims claim, the God of Christ and the God of Mohammed is the same, there is no way that the teachings of the Koran would seek to undermine the peaceable ministry of Christ's followers. I have very strong beliefs in this area, and will argue until the cows come home, if it encourages even one person to turn away from the deception of barbarous teaching and brutality towards others, whether those targeted are family, neighbors or foreigners, or practitioners of a different faith/ belief system.

I will post my reconsidered argument shortly. The OP was a bit rushed, and so with hindsight there was a failure to present my argument correctly.








edit on 27-7-2012 by FlyInTheOintment because: spelling - dagnammit...



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 04:46 PM
link   
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
 



in the context of how you say you want this viewed, i would say you first need to determine what God it is that you, as a Christian, observe. Is it the wrathful, vengeful God (Yahweh) of the Old Testament? Or the forgiving, loving God (the Father) in the New Testament?

And then we might even want to do the historical research on who authoried these texts. To say "oh, it was Paul" doesn't work. We need to identify who "Paul" was, and then make sure his last name wasn't really Piso.



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 05:32 PM
link   
reply to post by TRGreer
 

Dear TRGreer,

Thank you for your answer, I don't believe we are as far apart, nor am I as closed minded, as you seem to think.

You seem to be a good person and we might be able to have some great discourse on a wide range of topics but until you can admit that just about every religion has extremist factions then there is no real point.
Of course every religion has extremist factions. But I don't believe that all religions are equally violent or have the same per centage of violent followers. (And throughout, I am referring to violent extremists as those who kill or destroy to advance their religious influence.)

The above quote is a prime example of being closed minded on the topic. Practitioners of Christianity have murdered and stomped out whole belief systems. This is historical fact and it still goes on today. Could one not make the argument that they are attempting to end Islam right here and now? Be honest.
As far as I know, I am always honest. (Well, there was that one girl back in 1970...) If it's acceptable, I'd prefer not to go too far back in history, we live now and have to face situations as they are today. Besides, that is a very long and twisted path. I don't think that "they," whoever they are, are trying to end Islam. The West isn't fighting to spread Christianity through the Mid-east. There is a lot of argument over why they are there, oil, revenge, whatever, but not to spread a western religion.

To try and make the case that there are more extremist in Islam is just absurd.
It may be difficult, but I don't think it's absurd. If by "exteremist" we're talking about people with extreme attitudes who approve of violence to spread their religion's influence, I think a case could be made.

Even if this is the case since when does one having more extremist than another lessen the guilt or make one better than the other?
Better? I don't think violent extremism for a religious cause is good anywhere. But I would rather have a fringe group of five extremists on a rampage somewhere than 500,000.

It seems, and I am open to discussion on the point, that currently Islam has a larger number of adherents who support violence in ther opinions, and a larger number of people who actually do something about it. But, again, I'm open to hear about other religions which are presenting the world with similar violence to achieve the spread of their religion.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 07:37 PM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 


Machine like response. From a statistical stand point odds would favor your theory but we can only guess at out comes. I still will not shun an entire segment of the population simply on suspicion. I urge you to consider a moral query. Why do we forgive some religions for their atrocities but not others? Further more if you belonged to a group and they went and committed horrible crimes against humanity representing your religion falsely do you think you should be punished as well if you had no part in those crimes? guilt by association. What happens after you eradicate this religion and decide that you don't like the violence in that 500,000 you mentioned? Start taking the rights of individuals and you may as well surrender yours at the door.
edit on 27-7-2012 by TRGreer because: Typo
edit on 27-7-2012 by TRGreer because: More typo's ... Cruses!
edit on 27-7-2012 by TRGreer because: (no reason given)
edit on 27-7-2012 by TRGreer because: Typo



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 08:01 PM
link   
reply to post by TRGreer
 

Dear TRGreer,

Thanks, I think. I've never been called machine-like before. You have exposed an aspect of my personality which will be worth looking into. Anyway, on with the discussion.

I still will not shun an entire segment of the population simply on suspicion.
I agree totally, I wouldn't either. (Unless you have some particular meaning for "shun.")

I urge you to consider a moral query. Why do we forgive some religions for their atrocities but not others?
I'm not sure who the "we" are, and it's hard to speak for them, but I don't care for any atrocities. "Forgive" them? I'm not sure what you mean here. How does one forgive a religion?

Further more if you belonged to a group and they went and committed horrible crimes against humanity representing your religion falsely do you think they should punish you as well if you had no part in those crimes? guilt by association.
Kind of a compound question, but if a group I belonged to did such, I would strongly consider disassociating myself from them. If not, I would see what I could do to apologize and make amends, if possible.

What happens after you eradicate this religion and decide that you don't like the violence in that 500,000 you mentioned? Start taking the rights of individuals and you may as well surrender yours at the door.
I don't want to eradicate any religion. All people should have some basic rights. (What those rights are is open to discussion) and Americans have additional rights. I don't want to mess with any of those rights. I do, however prefer that people planning to kill me be stopped.

It seems I haven't communicated well, there is a fair amount of misunderstanding of what my position is. I hope this clears it up a little

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 08:33 PM
link   

But I would rather have a fringe group of five extremists on a rampage somewhere than 500,000.


How then do you suggest you turn 500,000 to just 5 if you don't break a few eggs to make the omelet? ... so to speak. We do so want you to be able to sleep at night don't we?



Further more if you belonged to a group and they went and committed horrible crimes against humanity representing your religion falsely do you think they should punish you as well if you had no part in those crimes? guilt by association.

Kind of a compound question, but if a group I belonged to did such, I would strongly consider disassociating myself from them. If not, I would see what I could do to apologize and make amends, if possible.


Maybe I wasn't clear because you haven't answered the question. Let me try to be more to the point. Should you be punished for crimes committed by another simply because you shared a belief?
edit on 27-7-2012 by TRGreer because: Messed up the quote.



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 08:43 PM
link   
I am not anti-human.

But i do have problem with hogs .


[color=grey]" KILL ALL MUSLIMS "
-- Ralph Peters



Lt. Col. Ralph Peters on Journalists: ‘Kill Them All’

Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, Darfur, Cambodia…I could go on. You get my drift. What universe is this guy living in? What human being half-aware of the contemporary AND historical record believes that genocide is “unthinkable” today? What Peters is REALLY complaining about is that we don’t credit the possibility that MUSLIMS want to exterminate us as Nazis exterminated Jews. And here the answer is, unfortunately for Peters, that yes, most of us don’t believe radical Muslims, even had they the will to do so, actually have the ability to do “the unthinkable.”









edit on 27-7-2012 by iIuminaIi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2012 @ 09:43 PM
link   
reply to post by TRGreer
 

Dear TRGreer,

Yet more misunderstandings? Ah well, such is life.

How then do you suggest you turn 500,000 to just 5 if you don't break a few eggs to make the omelet? ... so to speak. We do so want you to be able to sleep at night don't we?
I was talking about two different groups. I think that I, and the rest of the world, would be more concerned about a large group of violent terrorists than a small group.

Maybe I wasn't clear because you haven't answered the question. Let me try to be more to the point. Should you be punished for crimes committed by another simply because you shared a belief?
It depends. (My favorite answer in normal conversation, my second favorite is "yes and no.") Do you really mean the only connection is a shared belief? I haven't encouraged, supported or approved in the action in any way, and the belief that we shared was not that it is a good idea to commit those crimes. Also, is there nothing in those beliefs that would influence anyone else to commit those crimes? Then OK, don't put me in jail for a sentence equal to the perpretrator's.

By the way, were you satisfied with my answers otherwise?

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 01:36 AM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 


I give up. I am sick and tired of giving well thought out posts to threads withi people whose opinions differ from mine only to have my thoughts never be adressed. Everyone here has made one of these arguments.


One; there was muslims that did dsomething bad, so Islam is bad. Or you cant judge all people by a few extremist.

I showed specific examples of main stream Islamisists advocating violence towards others. and I getn no repsonse. I also wanted people to give me evidence that I was wrong about this perception because I wanted to know the truth.

Fine, I get the picture. Reasonable discourse is not alloowed. Only asinine opinions not based on fact are worth commenting on.

All of you people should be ashamed. But its nothing new to this site. Reasoble opinion is disregarded in order to argue with extremists. Im tired of trying to have civilized discourse with a community that just ignores a question that they cant answer.



posted on Jul, 28 2012 @ 03:16 AM
link   
reply to post by The Old American
 




I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but claiming that it's the word of God is misleading. The whole premise of Islam is that God gave the Qur'an to Mohammad and that it's been the same book ever since. But it was Gabriel that appeared to him and spoke the book, not God.


Just like the bible was 'PERSONALLY' written down by Jesus and not by people with names that came about hundreds of years later, Mark, Luke, John, Matthew.





new topics

top topics



 
39
<< 12  13  14    16  17  18 >>

log in

join