World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?

I've experienced war

and I can tell you there is good people on both sides, in fact 95% are good folks

the problem is the government on both sides. The god damn government

ok nothing more to say, I am leaving this thread

Originally posted by GLontra
And here is the "Holy Bible" of Jews and Christians:



Deuteronomy 13
King James Version


1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.


www.biblegateway.com...

It is called the new testament. You may not have heard of it, it is new. Christians do not practice this, read the new testament, you are ignorant.

You are reaching on this one buddy.

reply to post by DeadSnow

Stoning people...hmm kinda reminds me of the bible.

As I said, I dont care about holy books, but what people actually believe. Modern christians dont believe adulterers should be stoned. Modern muslims do.

Whippings? Slave trade anyone?

That was 200 years ago. Muslims do this things now.

Cutting of Hands/arms...Rebel groups in West Africa and Rwanda have been doing this for ages.

That does not make muslims extremists less bad. It makes rebel groups in Africa more bad.

Death Penalty? Need I explain further?...Texas.

Texas has death penalty for apostasy?

Originally posted by DeadSnow
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

 

The Western world has bought into a shedload of propaganda concerning Islam, and it is all too apparent that we are ready to believe the best about the 'religion of peace', without considering the actual facts. Something has become brutally clear in recent years. Our leaders are jumping up and down to be counted as 'tolerant' and as ambassadors for religious freedom, and both they, and simpering members of multi-faith groups are quick to label Islam as a 'religion of peace'. However, Islam in itself, in its literal and true form, is not a religion of peace. The scriptures of the Koran openly promote violence against all who are not Muslim, with explicit instructions regarding the need for ongoing conquest and subjection of all who are not in submission to Islam (in fact, 'Islam' literally means 'submission').

All religions are responsible for deaths, all human beings regardless. Your thread is biased.

NO they are not all responsible for deaths. Power hungry people are. The difference is islam is as power hungry as those individuals in where it wants to turn the world to its view by force., with violence.

Christianity does not tell its followers to destroy unbelievers but minister to them. It does not tell you to destroy them or attack all those who do not believe. Power hungry leaders make that decision it is not said in the scriptures unlike the islam scriptures where it is expected.

Originally posted by DeadSnow
reply to post by Hecate666

 

I live in Africa! surrounded by Muslims, Christians, Hindus and local beliefs. I've met over 200 Muslims, now can you please bring forth some new information other than what your Cameroonian friend has told you.

I did, read my post. Also whilst you may be bored of my Camerooniann friend, there may be people who have not read about her yet.
Can you answer any of my questions without picking nits?

~SIGH~ I am done with this thread. Mainly with the claims of innocence from Christians. Funny how they always seem to be at the front of the line to cast the first stone and their denial of their own holy scripture and the ugliness that proliferates their own religion makes me sick. How many times on here has some Christian posted "we don't use the old testament anymore"? Maybe someone should let those Christians out there using the old testament to attack gays into the loop huh? What a crock and a cop out. "Don't judge us on our extremist but we will judge everyone else out there brutally even though our god says judgement is his." You new defenders of Christianity on this post should really go back and READ the whole string. Its not like we cant see what your extremist do everyday on the news. Denial of these peoples actions will not erase them from our minds. There are plenty of examples of modern Christians bombing, killing, and hate mongering in this post to choke a horse and yet they still squawk that its not real! its all in OUR minds. At least most of the good Christians I know don't deny the extremist of their faith. In fact they work hard to change minds because they realize that denying the obvious is futile and just makes their faith look worse. Go on denying the truth and then wonder why Christianity is a dying religion. Fitting that it should be stomped out like it has done to so many other beliefs.

Foot note....

Just had some Jehovah witnesses at my door yesterday. Never had Muslims come to my door and yet its one of the fastest growing religions in the world. Actions speak louder than words. Jesus knew this and yet most of his Christian followers never have figured that one out.

Originally posted by charles1952
Primarily I was saying that the idea that 1% or fewer of Muslims world-wide were extremists is contradicted by other evidence.

No it doesn't. There's a difference from saying you support said actions and being an active extremist yourself. Why didn't they poll all those Muslims and ask them how many would blow themselves up or commit acts of terror? As I said I'd be willing to bet it would be 1% or less.

No one can seriously make these statements and say they understand polling theory, statistical sampling, or even the definition of "poll." It's a little like a famous musician, immersed in his instrument, asking a physicist friend if he can have a few dozen quantum particles to put on his mantlepiece.

No you are missing my point. When they poll they do not poll all Muslims. They go and pick specific areas, etc. It's like when they poll almost everything. For instance politics. A poll might say XX% of White people POLLED support gay marriage. That does not mean that literally XX% of ALL White people feel that way. It all depends on who you poll and where you poll.

The point being polls are not definitive. As I said you can find a poll to support just about anything. I don't trust polls at all. You'll see a poll for an election prior to the election where the majority of people support Candidate Z. But then the election happens and Candidate X ends up winning. So much for the poll

Originally posted by SecretFace
My issue with Islam, is that because it truly believes that it is the one true religion, there is no tolerance towards any other religion or for non-religious people.

This is just not true. I understand where you are coming from but we have addressed this very issue numerous times on this and other threads. The Quran says no such thing and in fact says the opposite. I posted this before but I'll post it again

What the Quran really says about violence

This is the reason why in EVERY majority Muslim country, there is massive persecution of non-Islamic individuals/communities. This is the reason that in EVERY country that has almost or close to half the population as Muslim, there is conflict and war.

No, the Quran and Islam are not to blame for this. You cannot blame the religion for the actions of its adherents, especially if the actions go against what the Quran teaches.

reply to post by Maslo


No it DOES matter what the Quran says because that's the main issue. People think the Quran endorses these actions and it doesn't. It does also matter what some Muslims believe and the best thing to do is to combat extremism and educate to the truth. But it's absolutely silly to proclaim that it does not matter at all what the Quran says. It sure would matter what the Quran said if it actually did justify violence.

reply to post by DeadSnow


No they like to talk about the atrocities of the past, the list presented about Islam is as of the last 10 years...show me a similar list from Cristian atrocities for the last 10 years please...?

Sniper

Originally posted by Maslo


Texas has death penalty for apostasy?

Islam does not have a death penalty for apostasy. That is a Western misperception (and extremists are to blame for that also). The only time that the death penalty would be suggested for apostasy is if the person left Islam and became an enemy of Islam, meaning they started waging war against Islam and Muslims. Basically it's tantamount to treason. In America treason is punishable by death, also.

Also in order to enforce Shariah there has to be an Islamic CALIPHATE (Khilafah) that is ruled by a CALIPH (Khalifah). There is not ONE in this world. Saudi Arabia is a KINGDOM and the head is the KING. Iran is a REPUBLIC and the head is the PRESIDENT.

Finally, even if this happened. If there was an Islamic Khilafah established somewhere and they ruled by Shariah Law and someone left Islam and then began to wage war against Islam and was captured and sentenced to death (because in order to be condemned to death there MUST be a trial and he must be found guilty and sentenced) then the death penalty is to be carried out by the courts! The death sentence for "apostasy" is NOT a call for vigiliantism.

EDIT: So as you can see there is no way that any "fatwas" can be issued for the death of ANYONE. When the Ayatollah did so, for instance, with Salman Rushdie he was actually outside of Islamic jurisprudence. Also, the Ayatollah is not the "supreme leader of all Muslims." He's not even a Sunni. He's a Shi'a and therefore any "power" he has would be only with Shi'a Muslims.

See this is where understanding what Islam ACTUALLY teaches versus what some Muslims claim comes in handy.

Originally posted by votan

The difference is islam is as power hungry as those individuals in where it wants to turn the world to its view by force., with violence.

I mean no offense but I absolutely love when non-Muslims talk about Islam like they know everything about it and are scholars of Islam. So, Votan, I would like to know where you get this information. Where specifically does the Quran say to "turn the world to Islam by force, with violence"?

Originally posted by votan
It is called the new testament. You may not have heard of it, it is new. Christians do not practice this, read the new testament, you are ignorant.

You are reaching on this one buddy.

Really? He's "ignorant"? Then why do Christians invoke the Old Testament when condemning homosexuality? Why do Christians invoke the Old Testament ("an eye for an eye") when they want to justify supporting the death penalty or "Just War theory"?

Can't have it both ways. And if you can't debate/discuss this topic without insulting people, then how about you just vacate the thread? If anyone is acting ignorant, it's you.

Originally posted by votan

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by DeadSnow

 

Okay, well at least you are asking my opinion instead of claiming you already know. The Koran was the result of 'divine revelation' to Mohammed. He claimed that he was visited by the angel Gabriel over a period of 22 years, who dictated masses of material for him to record in memory, and which was later written down. It was not anything to do with Judaism or Christianity, though Mohammed had former contact with Jews when they jointly persecuted Christians, before the 'revelations' began.

You realize it's all the same God right?

It's called the Abrahamic Faiths for a reason you know.

~Tenth

spoken like a true noob.. but if you do not like religion what can you expect. They are all the same right? If you do not believe in religion you might want to just step away from this one.

edit on 27-7-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

Anything else but Ad hominem and deflection?

Simply because I do not 'believe' in religion means I can't possibly have studied it, or grew up in it?

There's no possible way that someone who doesn't believe in organized religion could ever have anything good to say about it eh?

Please reply with substance if you are going to reply at all and argue the point I made, not attack me personally.

~Tenth

reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786

Dear Coolerbdullah786,

Good! I think we can clarify a little confusion.

No it doesn't. There's a difference from saying you support said actions and being an active extremist yourself. Why didn't they poll all those Muslims and ask them how many would blow themselves up or commit acts of terror? As I said I'd be willing to bet it would be 1% or less.

I would suggest that an extremist is a person with extreme ideas while a violent or active extremist (or terrorist) is one putting those ideas into action. In the same way, a racist is a person with racist beliefs, whether or not he acts on them.

Oh, about polls? Sure, one poll can be wrong but a number of polls taken by different companies, provides a more reliable picture.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


No it doesn't provide a "more reliable picture." Because, again, it all depends on who gets polled on that particular day. Show me a worldwide poll of ALL Muslims and then I'll be content.

reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786

Dear CoolerAbdullah786,

What's your take on the main point of my post, though?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I've addressed the main post numerous times. I do not have time to do it again. The only thing I can say is go back and read all my posts. *shrug*