Christians... riddle me this!

reply to post by adjensen


For the same reason you came in to argue my views probably.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

For the same reason you came in to argue my views probably.

I only argue with incorrect assertions regarding Christianity (well, and incorrect assertions regarding history, physics, maths... a bunch of stuff, lol) -- I truly don't care what people believe.

If someone comes round and says "I think God is a load of bollocks", I'll buy 'em a beer and have no issue with them. But if they say "I KNOW God is a load of bollocks, and here's a bunch of whining to support it", I'm going to rip into their arguments, because that's what I do.

Again, I am an apologist, not an evangelist. You wanna be an atheist? Cool, I couldn't care less. You wanna talk smack about Christianity? Well, that's another matter, but at the end of the day, so long as I've presented a reasonable defense of what you've claimed, I, again, couldn't care less what you believe, because my job isn't to convert you, but to point out the errors that you make in shouting Christianity down.

(Here's a hint... as an atheist, you should be equal in your defamation of religions, and you're not likely to find me defending Islam, Hinduism, Shinto and other non Judaic or Christian faiths. Well, I might be inclined to address lies about Hinduism, because I've studied that, but not quite as strenuously, lol)

reply to post by adjensen


#1 I'm not an atheist, just because I don't believe in your god doesn't make me an atheist. If that's the case, everyone outside of christianity is an atheist.

#2 Where exactly have you 'ripped into my arguments'?

#3 Where have you come up with a reasonable defense for what you believe? Saying that god is real because you think so is not a reasonable defense, sorry. If you use the bible as your defense, then sorry, so do I.

#4 Where did I ever state that I 'know' your god doesn't exist? The only word I have used is 'believe' not 'know'.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
This thread has semi-devolved into 2 points of view.

1. Literal interpretation of the Bible vs Conjecture based on intuition (?).
2. Pantheism vs Christianity.

Seems to be a common occurrence in all of the religious threads. I am address the last point first. Having been a very serious student of Buddhism before my conversion to Christianity I have to ask the pantheist what is so joyful about total dissolution of self and amalgamation into the Godhead in such a manner that you stop being and be one with everything. Where is the you? Where is the freewill?

Let me ask you this: where is the joy in knowing that everything you do in life is predetermined?knowing that no matter what you do, you didn't make any difference at all? That what you did was not you, but a god that planned it out before you were ever born?

Where is the joy in knowing that every moment of your life is spent being watched by a god who judges everything you do? Ready to send you to eternal torture on a whim of a thought?

Where is the joy in thinking that nothing you do in life really matters or counts, other than worshipping your god? That nothing you did was ever your doing, only gods?

Where is the joy in thinking you are somehow inferior to anything?

I am the me and you are the you, but everything is together is the it. There is still self even if you believe you are part of something bigger, why would you think otherwise?

Where is the free will knowing that you have no free will because god has already made the decision for you long ago?

If God were everything would everything not be perfect?

If your god were perfect then why would he make such imperfect creatures as ourselves? That's two sides of the same coin right there.

What is nirvana other than death of self/ego?

My nirvana is learning something new or discovering something I've never seen before. My nirvana is living my life and experiencing its beauty and wonder.

Where is your nirvana other than what's waiting for you after this life?

If we can all find the God within how come the cities of Buddhist countries are not shining with a radiant light from all of the so called enlightened god-men? Where are the Bodhisattvas? Shouldn't they be down here saving us all? How does that play into their quest to end their own suffering through desire? If they will anything it stems from desire.

For the same reason your god does not come down and save us all probably.

Does god not desire for us to believe in him? Why is desire such a bad thing even though you desire good?

The journey to enlightenment is doomed to failure from the beginning because it is born of desire. Buddhism is ultimately very fatalistic and bordeline nihilism in my experience.

So its better yo just sit back and take everyones word for it? Enlightenment is not a desire, it is the result of the desire for truth. If it is a sin to desire what should rightfully be ours, then I guess I'm the biggest sinner around and I'm proud of it.

Ok I will answer in order. Since you responded I will assume you subscribe to one of the ideas previously mentioned.

1. You do not understand free will obviously. Some of what you are asking applies directly to eastern ideas. Predetermination would be what Dharma is. Everything you do in this life was determined in your previous life as a result of your karma. That is your Dharma. Seems pointless eh? Responsible for mistakes in a past life you do not recall. The Christian Idea as I understand it would be analogous to a playwright who wrote a play that was mostly improv. You have a general story outline. climax, resolution etc only the actors improvise or ad lib their performance.

2. Well I will take that to mean that God has an interest in me to be so concerned as to watch my doings. Truly he is a personal God. However Karma could be compared that way only more as celestial calculator accumulating and subtracting to your life account. Only you cant recall any of the previous purchases. Seems kind of cold and unfair. Rigged even.

3. See #1.

4. Love allows free will. Free will is the ability to choose for one self. This is evidence that God loves us. Unless you think choice is imperfect? also see #1.

5. I don't think you understand Nirvana but you are free to entertain any conjecture you desire .

6. God has intervened and he has come to save us all. Only some choose not to hear his call. The Bodhisattva is to delay nirvana help us achieve enlightenment. Which seems to be an extremely rare occurrence hence the lack of god-men and glowing cities.

7. You have contradicted yourself here. Please restate the question.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

It's not always about you, buttercup. I was simply stating my position, in a general sense.

As for you, I will repeat, since you seem to not grasp it:

I do not care, one iota, what you believe. You wanna believe in no gods, one, three, or 256? Knock yourself out, I couldn't care less. Your salvation is your own business, not mine.

reply to post by NihilistSanta


So you're comparing life to a play? Kind of like we are puppets and god is the puppeteer?

If god has already chosen the outcome of our lives then why does our life matter? No matter what we do, our lives will always end the same way, they will always have the same end result. So why, in your worldview, should it matter what you do if you know it will end a certain way?

I have a complete understanding of what free will is and someone planning what will happen to me beforehand does not fit with my understanding of free will. Maybe you are the one unsure of what free will is?

Why even look when you cross the street if you believe that god has the end planned ahead of time? Just because you look across the street doesn't mean you won't be hit, so why do you look?

I don't conform to any religion, I have my own set of beliefs that I came to the conclusion by myself. I do not believe in dharma, that implies that something is pulling the strings behind the curtains and I don't conform to that ideology.

reply to post by adjensen


If you don't care what I believe then why even reply to my post to begin with? If you don't care about me going to hell for eternity then that is your choice not mine.

Doesn't the bible teach us to care for one another and each others well being? If you don't care that I'm going to hell then you don't care about my well being and that means you don't practice what you preach.

Have a little compassion why don't you? I have compassion for everyone including you, I wouldn't say I like you very much because you are very condescending, but I still have compassion for you and that is why I try to spread what I believe to be the truth.

If you decide to ignore it then that's all on you. I have listened yo your side of the story and believed it for 22 years so you can't say I have ignored your 'truth'.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NihilistSanta

 

So you're comparing life to a play? Kind of like we are puppets and god is the puppeteer?

If god has already chosen the outcome of our lives then why does our life matter? No matter what we do, our lives will always end the same way, they will always have the same end result. So why, in your worldview, should it matter what you do if you know it will end a certain way?

I have a complete understanding of what free will is and someone planning what will happen to me beforehand does not fit with my understanding of free will. Maybe you are the one unsure of what free will is?

Why even look when you cross the street if you believe that god has the end planned ahead of time? Just because you look across the street doesn't mean you won't be hit, so why do you look?

I don't conform to any religion, I have my own set of beliefs that I came to the conclusion by myself. I do not believe in dharma, that implies that something is pulling the strings behind the curtains and I don't conform to that ideology.

Ok I was not clear apparently with the play analogy. The play is all of time. We are the actors who can ad lib our lives as part of the narrative. A character in a play has no meaning? why does the character exist at all then?

reply to post by NihilistSanta


So our tiny lifespans on this tiny planet have an impact on what happens on the massive lifespan and massive size of the universe? How is that? How did you come to this conclusion? Is it a shot in the dark or is there some kind of evidence to support this?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NihilistSanta

 

So our tiny lifespans on this tiny planet have an impact on what happens on the massive lifespan and massive size of the universe? How is that? How did you come to this conclusion? Is it a shot in the dark or is there some kind of evidence to support this?

I will answer your post with a reply I have just made in another thread since they both fit.

All things are of God



Colossians 1:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Romans 9:20-21 King James Version (KJV)
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Yet you still have a choice. So no obstruction of free will either.

Joshua 24:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

So there you have my answer. This was not a shot in the dark. This is supported by scripture without contradiction.

Apologies to OP not trying to derail your thread.

reply to post by NihilistSanta


I don't see anything that states our lives are pr-determined in any way in those verses.

I do see that everything consists of god, so we are god in a sense. I also see that those made of honour and dishonor are both made by god as well, meaning good and evil are both from god.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

If you don't care what I believe then why even reply to my post to begin with? If you don't care about me going to hell for eternity then that is your choice not mine.

I replied because you asked a question

Doesn't the bible teach us to care for one another and each others well being? If you don't care that I'm going to hell then you don't care about my well being and that means you don't practice what you preach.

Have a little compassion why don't you? I have compassion for everyone including you, I wouldn't say I like you very much because you are very condescending, but I still have compassion for you and that is why I try to spread what I believe to be the truth.

Hmmm... first you complain about people preaching at you, and now you're indignant because I won't?

I never said that I don't care about you as a human being, I said that I don't care what you believe. And let me put it another way, to clarify it. I respect your beliefs, and I don't see any reason for me to try and change them. As an example, I think that atheism is a perfectly rational viewpoint, so apart from some basic "here's why I think that's wrong" arguments, I don't have a whole lot to say to atheists who aren't anti-theists.

Most people who post threads on ATS, including you and I, are fairly well set in their ways. Uncommon is the time that someone will post something, have it refuted, and later say "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks." I see it in some of the non-religious threads that I participate in, but it's almost unthinkable in a religious thread.

So, if I don't care what you believe, and I recognize that you're set in your ways and my refutation is going to fall on mostly deaf ears (and that's not intended as an insult, like I said, I'm the same way,) why do I bother to post at all? Because I'm not writing for your benefit, but, rather, for the benefit of future readers.

Let's use Autowrench and his "Roman Piso" theory as an example. If you search the web for information about it, you'll find a ton of websites promoting it, and very few refuting it. The reason, of course, is that there is a core of believers who put together multiple websites, "books" that just regurgitate what other "books" claim, and do other things that make it appear that there is a large undercurrent of people who are in on the secret, while skeptics look at the notion, quickly realize that it is not merely incorrect, but so massively so that no one in their right mind would believe it, and let it go at that.

That's because skeptics and scholars are critical thinkers -- they can look at something like that, see that there is no historical basis for it, and just laugh at the foolishness. They, tragically, don't see the need to refute something as that is so crazy, because they don't recognize that not all people are critical thinkers.

So a non-critical thinker comes across it, and what do THEY see? A whole lot of people, seemingly, supporting this notion, and almost no one saying that it's wrong. To some people, that's all it takes to make them think that the theory is, in fact correct, because they are ignorant of history, the concepts of historical research, or something else.

And that is why I do what I do -- when someone posts something that I know to be incorrect, I generally respond, because otherwise, there is the chance that, in the future, someone will read the post, see nothing that counters it, and come to the incorrect conclusion that no one has anything to refute it.

If they wish to believe in something that I believe to be invalid, that's fine, I have no issue with that. I just want them to form said belief with the understanding that there are other sides to the story, and to form a proper decision, they need to evaluate the notion with more than just one person's claims.

I just replied on another thread, but don't have much time. Not trying to "troll." Ignoring the debate on God's existence, etc for now (which is a usually worthless debate), for those who do believe, let me chime in a bit. And if you don't, please read anyway. I've found many times what drives people away from "Christianity" is not God, but Christianity itself. Christianity has dogmas that are simply false and misguided, despite whatever good intentions may be there. It's sad to see many rebelling against Christianity and ultimately any "spirituality" or "faith," when the thing that disgusted them - Christianity, also disgusts God in many respects.

Jesus said something CRITICAL regarding the Kingdom of God: Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Chrisitanity and religion don't like to go there, to the deeper places of the spirit within us, because that's not something controllable or profitable or manageable. BUT NEITHER IS GOD. But knowing that the Kingdom is
WITHIN the believer, and is not coming with outward signs, is HUGE HUGE HUGE. Try to interpret Paul's writings and other scriptures regarding the end in light of that. It changes everything, and if you go back to the original greek, you will begin to see that traditional interpretations of heaven/rapture are simply false. While I don't have all the answers, I'm ok with that! Because Truth is a PATH, not something to be owned or acquired. It's a daily path, that requires a daily walk and relationship with God in the spirit. It's a path of hardship and suffering, but that's the only path that leads to LIFE. The notion of "heaven" and "hell" are really what drive Christianity, based on FEAR. But if you are a SON, and know God as a loving Father, there will not be a fear-based relationship. I believe "heaven" as we know it is inconceivable to our minds right now, but will be a realm of activity, growth, and incredible experiences. Everything good about this life elevated and purified. Get to know God in the SPIRIT, and HE will reveal things to you. Truth, ultimately, especially in spiritual matters, cannot be explained or "proven," but only revealed.

1 Corinthians 2:9-14 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- (10) these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. (11) For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. (13) And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. (14) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

I highly recommend you listen to any 2012 sermon from www.kingdomstreams.net NOT what you think , but wonderful truth there, non-religious, but JEsus-focused. Not like anything I've ever heard, and not something you are likely to hear anywhere else, period.

reply to post by adjensen


I agree with everything you posted here except where you say I complain when people preach their views to me. I have never complained about you preaching to me, all I did was state why I think you (or anyone else) are wrong, nothing more.

I also disagree with you 'knowing' that I am wrong, you may think you know, but you don't 'know', just as I don't 'know' you're wrong. The only way we'll find out who is right is when we die, which, in my opinion, is a huge convenience for your side.

Star for the respectful and well thought out post though. I guess we will agree to disagree.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I also disagree with you 'knowing' that I am wrong, you may think you know, but you don't 'know', just as I don't 'know' you're wrong. The only way we'll find out who is right is when we die, which, in my opinion, is a huge convenience for your side.

Just to clarify -- when I mean that I know someone is wrong, I am referring to them stating something that is demonstrably false. So not if they are stating an opinion or belief, but a statement of fact.

For example, let's say someone says "I believe that the Gnostics were the true Christians." I might respond with a question like "Why do you believe that?" because I'm curious (or because I like to argue with people about the Gnostics, lol,) but there is nothing in their statement that can be shown to be wrong. In fact, semantically, it is a perfectly sound statement, because it's a statement of belief, and unless the person is lying, it's a true statement.

But if, on the other hand, they say "The Gnostics were the true Christians" or respond to my "why" query with something about the Gospel of Mary or reincarnation, now they are representing facts that my studies on early Christian history, particularly the Gnostics, tell me are not true, and I will point out their errors. They are welcome to contest my refutations, that's what a good debate is.

Originally posted by tolovethetruth
Jesus said something CRITICAL regarding the Kingdom of God: Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

I've always liked the interpretation of that as being a bit of a joke on Jesus' part. Telling the religious hierarchy something akin to "Hello? Right here in front of you! Hello?"

reply to post by Akragon

It's the demarcation threshold point behond which everything just keeps on getting better and better, but to start it must begin, so it's coming, is NOW.

"The kingdom of heaven is close at hand"

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by tolovethetruth
Jesus said something CRITICAL regarding the Kingdom of God: Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

I've always liked the interpretation of that as being a bit of a joke on Jesus' part. Telling the religious hierarchy something akin to "Hello? Right here in front of you! Hello?"

Also, sometime do a word study on the difference between "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven". Kingdom of God deals with the "rule of" God and the kingdom of heaven is the heavenly kingdom.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Also, sometime do a word study on the difference between "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven". Kingdom of God deals with the "rule of" God and the kingdom of heaven is the heavenly kingdom.

There is no difference between the two sayings, other than Matthew was favoring the "heaven" phrase and all the verses using that version are found in that Gospel.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Ahhh, so the souls and spirits of the righteous dead live inside every believer? That makes infinitely more sense, thanks JM!!!

Kingdom of God VS Kingdom of Heaven