Christians... riddle me this!

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

No, I'm not getting ahead of myself. Jesus pertained to the subject at hand, you are avoiding it because you know you have nothing to refute it.

Can I step in for a second here?

Do you have anything to SUPPORT it? Circular logic: using something to prove itself. Example: saying the Bible is true because the Bible says it is.

Let's try something a little more solid, yes? And while we're questioning Christians, I'd like to toss a query into the mix...

What is your idea of heaven? What do you believe will be waiting for you there? How will you pass the time? What will your activities be?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I guess you missed the part where I admitted I was wrong on absolute morality.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Sure.

How am I using circular logic? All I'm saying is that that is what the bible says. I have never stated that I believe without a doubt Jesus existed. I've said the opposite actually, that it's possible he never existed, but it's also possible that he did, I'm not saying either way. I was just keeping it on a level playing field.

I believe we are already in heaven, except this particular planet is hell because of all the war, greed, famine, and manipulation. Heaven would be a planet that has none of those things, a place where money is not thrown into the mix because money is the reason for everything bad that happens.

I have stated many times what I believe heaven to be.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I don't believe in your version of god. My god is very similar to yours, except mine does not judge, nor need worship.

Before I begin, I want to say that I agree with you.

However, is that all it is? We just choose to believe in something, and that makes us right? If there is only one god, how can there by so many different religions?

This has always confused me.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Because, in my opinion, all these gods from different religions are fabrications of man, power structures put in place to make the masses obedient without ever questioning the god lest they be punished for eternity. If you can make people obedient to a god, you can make them obedient to other things.

I do not conform to any religion. What I believe to be god is nature, something that can be measured and something that actually exists without a doubt. The bible describes god as nature as well, minus the dogma of hell and judgement. You just have to read it within that context to get the message.

Deuteronomy 32:2
Let my teaching fall like rain and my words descend like dew, like showers on new grass, like abundant rain on tender plants.

Corinthians 9:10
Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness.

Isaiah 30:23
He will also send you rain for the seed you sow in the ground, and the food that comes from the land will be rich and plentiful. In that day your cattle will graze in broad meadows.

Isaiah 61:11
For as the soil makes the sprout come up and a garden causes seeds to grow, so the Sovereign LORD will make righteousness and praise spring up before all nations.

All these verses are comparing the 'lord' to nature. Rain, soil, dew, snow, harvest, etc., etc.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Isn't that how it all began?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You mean what god started out as? As nature? If that's what you're saying, then yes, I agree.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


It started out as an attempt to explain nature. See, religion has had three phases so far:

1. Preliminary science

2. Crowd control

3. Catch-all (answer to everything for the higher thinkers - doesn't work so well anymore)

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I agree completely. We may have our differences every now and then but I think we think along the same lines most of the time.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What statement? You never made a statement in reference to what I said, I was simply making an observation based on something that has already been established. I never stated that what I said was true, I stated what I believed to be true and said that you would most likely disagree.

Do you agree or disagree with what I said?

ETA: You are right, I see what you are saying now, I apologize for assuming something beforehand. Cool? I can admit when I'm wrong and I apologize.

edit on 9-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

No need to apologize, Im not here to win points.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

What I'm saying is that just because everyone doesn't abide by the absolute moral standard does not mean it doesn't exist. Yes, not everyone abides to the absolute moral standard. Universal means everyone, not everyone abides to it, so a universal absolute moral standard does not exist.

it does not exist to an omniscient being... it does exist and apply to humans though since we created the word to define it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

I don't believe in your version of god. My god is very similar to yours, except mine does not judge, nor need worship.

Before I begin, I want to say that I agree with you.

However, is that all it is? We just choose to believe in something, and that makes us right? If there is only one god, how can there by so many different religions?

This has always confused me.

it has always been our nature to do and believe in what is pleasant to the sight of the Lord. (this goes back before the scientific method, one can say it is imprinted/coded to the dna if you will)

reply to post by SisyphusRide

it has always been our nature to do and believe in what is pleasant to the sight of the Lord.

One look at history tells you you're wrong.

No, what you want is cheap spirituality. Plain and simple. You want the ready baked pie on the window sill that all you have to do is agree with the baker's views and you get free pie whenever you want. You like the easy way out.

It's not that simple. It's never been that simple. Look at how much you rely on the material world, how restricted your views are, how unwilling you are to accept other opinions or to accept that you can never, EVER understand any higher power as much as you pretend to, and you will see how far you are from being even CLOSE to spiritual fulfillment.

Fulfillment is what we make it. That doesn't mean it's enough. Our greatest talent has always been our ability to believe any lie we choose to. And as always, in matters of truth, we hold how we feel about it as more important than whether it is actually true.

We prefer a comfortable lifestyle over an honest one. And THAT is part of the nature of man. When we're hungry, we eat. When we're tired, we sleep. And when we're afraid of death, we choose the most convenient safeguard, accompanied by a convenient scapegoat for when things inevitably go wrong, due to the erroneous nature of our choice. But because the road less taken is a rough one, we say, "To hell with that."

And we take the easy one. Because no one wants a hard life. Spirituality is a hard thing. And many don't think it's worth it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

it has always been our nature to do and believe in what is pleasant to the sight of the Lord.

One look at history tells you you're wrong.

No, what you want is cheap spirituality. Plain and simple. You want the ready baked pie on the window sill that all you have to do is agree with the baker's views and you get free pie whenever you want. You like the easy way out.

one thing is for certain... you don't need a rocket scientist to tell you the pie is always better when someone else makes and bakes it for you.

reply to post by SisyphusRide


heh... Good ol Ronny...

Lets see..

The frustrating thing is that those who are attacking religion claim they are doing it in the name of tolerance. Question: Isn’t the real truth that they are intolerant of religion?

No..

The real truth is, they are intolerant of "religionists" telling them to join the ranks of whatever cult or they'll burn in hell...

They're intolerant of people claiming saying one thing about what they're religion stands for... and then doing the opposite...

They're not intolerant of religion... they're intolerant of what it turns people into...

reply to post by SisyphusRide


If it doesn't apply to god then how can the concept exist? Like NOTurTypical pointed out, if there is a higher power then everything must apply to him because he is the one that created any one thing, whether it be a tree or a concept in the human mind.

If you believe the absolute moral standard is a man-made concept, one wonders why you can't apply that same logic to god.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

If it doesn't apply to god then how can the concept exist? Like NOTurTypical pointed out, if there is a higher power then everything must apply to him because he is the one that created any one thing, whether it be a tree or a concept in the human mind.

If you believe the absolute moral standard is a man-made concept, one wonders why you can't apply that same logic to god.

No, I said "appeal" to Him, not "apply". Appeal to God means it rests on His authority and sovereignty. Or in layman's terms, He's the boss, He makes all the rules.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


And who interprets these so-called "rules"? Man does. Who enforces these "rules"? Man does. Who, in fact, selects these rules, filters them by omission, chooses which ones to preach about, and thereby influences how his society interacts by controlling the emphasis of these rules, according to his whim? Man does.

How extraordinarily convenient...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And who interprets these so-called "rules"? Man does. Who enforces these "rules"? Man does. Who, in fact, selects these rules, filters them by omission, chooses which ones to preach about, and thereby influences how his society interacts by controlling the emphasis of these rules, according to his whim? Man does.

How extraordinarily convenient...

Who gave dominion to man? Who wrote His laws into the fabric of our DNA? That's why all people know murder is wrong without being taught.