Christians... riddle me this!

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posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


That's an interesting question, and I would have to say yes and no. Yes, there could be such a code, but no, I don't think that anyone can achieve perfect morality (which would mean that they were the ultimate "good", all the time.)


Jesus obtained perfect morality and was possibly born with it. To say that someone cannot attain perfect morality is going against what you believe Jesus was.


Well, we'll have to leave Jesus out of things for the time being, because that is likely getting ahead of ourselves.



So, can we set the concept of a moral code aside and get back to the basis of moral codes? Do you believe that absolute morality exists? Or is it merely subjective?


I agree with it being subjective when looking through such a narrow window like individualism.


Okay, great. We agree that you believe in subjective morality, rather than objective morality. Now, finally, we are ready to answer your question.

However, since you don't believe in God (I think that's correct, right? I apologize if I'm wrong there,) we'll use our old friends, the Spartans, to settle the issue.

Since you believe that morality is subjective, your response to the question of "Was it moral for the Spartans to kill or enslave children not fit for military service?" would have to be either "yes, it was moral" or, possibly "it is morally ambivalent" but either way, you can't say that it is immoral.

You can still say that you, personally, find it morally repugnant to behave in that manner, but you can't say that it is immoral, because the Spartans thought that it was moral, within the confines of their society, and subjective morality dictates that they are entitled to decide for themselves what is moral.

Okay? I can apply that directly to your question about God, but you should be able to do that yourself, now that you see how the lack of absolute morality affects our personal judgements.




posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


No, I'm not getting ahead of myself. Jesus pertained to the subject at hand, you are avoiding it because you know you have nothing to refute it.

I never said I disagreed with it being moral to Spartans, but what they did goes directly against 'thou shalt not kill', so according to gods law, it is immoral. This is you side-tracking.

ETA: You brought Jesus up in your very last post, so how are we getting ahead of ourselves again?
edit on 8-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I never said I disagreed with it being moral to Spartans, but what they did goes directly against 'thou shalt not kill', so according to gods law, it is immoral.


But you don't believe in God, or in absolute morality, so how can you say that?



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 11:24 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I don't believe in your version of god. My god is very similar to yours, except mine does not judge, nor need worship.

Also, you brought Jesus up before I did, so we are not getting ahead of ourselves.
edit on 8-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


It is your god that said it, so how can you not say that?

Are you going to keep avoiding the Jesus thing or will you actually address it?
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posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I am not disbelieving you just on that, I disbelieve you because I don't agree with what you say. I am just pointing out that you are already biased on the issue. Am I wrong for pointing that out?


You tell me..

Circumstantial Ad Hominem.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You never made a claim pertaining to what I said though. I was just pointing out beforehand that you are biased on the issue. That is not a fallacy, it is an observation on past discussion.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen
 


It is your god that said it, so how can you not say that?

Are you going to keep avoiding the Jesus thing or will you actually address it?


I think that we're getting a little fragmented here, let's try and get it back on track.

What, exactly, are you asking me about Christ?

For my part, I'd like to know whether you accept that, in your subjective morality, the Spartans were moral in their infanticide, because they thought it moral, though I recognize that you, personally, disagree with them and say that, in your opinion, they were immoral.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I will say it one more time, I'm growing tired of your games, and I have made this crystal clear in the past, do you agree that Jesus the man had perfect morals? If so, how can you say no-one can achieve it when you believe in a man that did?

In 'my' subjective moral point of view, no I don't think it was moral. I have clearly stated that I do not deny the fact that they thought it was moral. The fact that you are debating your own gods law baffles me.
edit on 9-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 12:23 AM
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I'm not sure why you always allude to me "playing games", when I'm just trying to get you to clearly state your beliefs, but.... HUZZAH! We can finally answer your question!


Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I will say it one more time, I'm growing tired of your games, and I have made this crystal clear in the past, do you agree that Jesus the man had perfect morals? If so, how can you say no-one can achieve it when you believe in a man that did?


Yes, Christ exemplified moralistic perfection. However, he did this, DESPITE being human. Human nature prevents us from realizing that perfection, but his divinity overruled that.

When discussing communism with radicals (over the course of decades, those guys just don't give up, lol,) I always point out that two truisms of human nature is that we are lazy ("what is the least amount of work that I can do") and greedy ("what is my share of this?"). That, as I see it, is the root of "original sin" and that which keeps us from achieving what Christ could do, as he was without those traits.


In 'my' subjective moral point of view, no I don't think it was moral. I have clearly stated that I do not deny the fact that they thought it was moral.


And you have answered your own question -- God's acts, which you deem to be immoral, are not immoral, because as a God of righteousness, those actions were moral, by definition. The disconnect is that your subjective morality disqualifies you as a judge of anyone else's morality, because you have agreed that it's just a matter of opinion.

Bummer that you didn't opt for "absolute morality, sourced by God", 'cause I had a pretty good counter to that, too


Despite the flippancy of that last line, I appreciate your honesty in coming to recognize your position on morality. Many people cannot do that -- I've had atheists argue me to near death that their subjective view of morality was objective, after all.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 12:36 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


What makes you think others cannot achieve it DESPITE being human? It has been done before with Jesus, so why not again? The bible says nothing about not being able to reach moral perfection, nothing, so why do you assume it can't be?

What makes you think I am greedy or lazy? I work out 5 times a week and completely reject materialism, though I am stuck in this materialistic system.

Are you saying that God commanded them to kill those babies? If it is immoral to kill (hence 'thou shalt not kill'), then how does god judge killing babies as moral?

You are contradicting yourself by agreeing that god made the commandment, yet doesn't find it immoral to kill babies.

You are running yourself and me in circles. Your logic is so flawed, yet you don't even realize it.
edit on 9-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen
 


What makes you think others cannot achieve it DESPITE being human? It has been done before with Jesus, so why not again? The bible says nothing about not being able to reach moral perfection, nothing, so why do you assume it can't be?


Well, there are only two religions (that I know of) that state this perfection can be achieved by normal, run of the mill, humans -- Roman Catholics and Methodists. My position is a little unique, as regards those two, where do you stand?


What makes you think I am greedy or lazy? I work out 5 times a week and completely reject materialism, though I am stuck in this materialistic system.


Because that is human nature. How much you exercise is of no relevance to that discussion, as we look at human beings in the aggregate, not any given person. I have been arguing against communists on this issue for thirty years, if you have some useful information to add, it would be much appreciated.


Are you saying that God commanded them to kill those babies? If it is immoral to kill (hence 'thou shalt not kill'), then how does god judge killing babies as moral?


No, I am saying that, if you opt to accept non-absolute morality as your world view, you have no right to make any judgement as to the morality of anyone's actions other than your own. That is the very definition of subjective morality -- if you don't like that, well, we're back to you providing a source for absolute morality.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 12:58 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I stand with neither.



Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Why would the bible suggest something that cannot be achieved? I thought it was the word of god, and god does not suggest things which are impossible. Or do you disagree with that statement? If so, what makes you so sure Jesus walked on water?

According to your gods commandment, coming from his own mouth that 'thou shalt not kill', those Spartans who killed those babies were not acting morally, according to the words that came out of your gods mouth.

I have already corrected myself and made it clear that absolute morality does not exist, so why do you keep assuming that I believe it does? Stop putting words in my mouth.

You are quite possibly the densest person I have ever met, and that is not an overstatement.
edit on 9-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 01:03 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
You are quite possibly the densest person I have ever met, and that is not an overstatement.


Then I bow, in deference, to your vastly superior intellect, and wish you well.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 01:07 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


If you prefer to bow out, that is your decision. I don't think you are stupid and never implied that you are, I just think you are extremely misguided, so do not try the guilt trip because it will not work.

It's ok to admit you are wrong, I have done it several times in this thread.
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posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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Double post
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posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You never made a claim pertaining to what I said though. I was just pointing out beforehand that you are biased on the issue. That is not a fallacy, it is an observation on past discussion.


So? As the link shows that has no bearing on whether a statement is true or not. I don't have to make an argument when you reject any future ones not yet made because of a person's bias, that's an irrational reasoning and thought process.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 04:58 AM
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Nothing you can easily imagine, so don't even try.



posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


What statement? You never made a statement in reference to what I said, I was simply making an observation based on something that has already been established. I never stated that what I said was true, I stated what I believed to be true and said that you would most likely disagree.

Do you agree or disagree with what I said?

ETA: You are right, I see what you are saying now, I apologize for assuming something beforehand. Cool? I can admit when I'm wrong and I apologize.
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posted on Aug, 9 2012 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


I have never seen you admit any error. You simply skirt the issue or change the subject.





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