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The resurrection. Help, please.

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posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:25 PM
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His interaction with this friends on The Road to Emmaus, when he opened up the scriptures to them and showed them how all the prophecy was fulfilled, reveals that he was also a master of disguise.

However, in what way, when he offered the bread and wine during the last supper and said "this is my body, this is my blood...do this in remembrance of me" is the meaning of his gesture, diminished, if he didn't completely die but made it through by a thread and with the help of friends in high places..perhaps, and most likely, even unbenownst to himself (how precisely he would make it through)..

Did he not still take upon himself the sins of the world? Did he not rise again after three days, the result being that the his Great Work symbolically transends the winter solstice as a cosmological principal of death and resurrection, pointing to a greater truth and reality?

And if he wasn't actually born of a virgin, did he not make the world new (virginal) again when he said to his mother, while carrying the cross "behold woman! I make all things new!"


I see his great sorrow, and his joyful triumph, clearly, and as a real historical person that's believable, for me at least it's even MORE compelling than the church version of the story.

And that he did make it though, that he did triumph and experience his liberation from the tomb, my oh my what an awesome thing to consider... for those than can..


edit on 24-7-2012 by NewAgeMan because: edit




posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by AdamsMurmur
 


Let me tell you something pretty cool.

ODIN was hung on the world tree (but upside down) for 9 days. He "sacrificed himself unto himself." He was also pierced in the side by his own spear.

Sound familiar?

Yep.
Hence, my doubt.
Thanks



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 

See the rebuttal to his post. Don't buy that garbage.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by dirkpotters
 


My last reply to you on this topic. You need to make your own choice of what to believe and then live by it. Either the Bible is what it claims to be or it is not. There is no middle ground (shade of grey) on this. Either Jesus died and was resurrected or it is a hoax. There have been hundreds of documents found in the last century that dispute the events of the Bible or provide alternate stories. All of these documents I am aware of are newer than the oldest copies of the gospels and letters in the New Testament.

Believe me when I say that I understand your confusion. Christianity today is a mess in many ways and on many levels...in what is taught, in what is not taught, in the way it is lived by those that claim to believe, and the way it is not lived by those that claim to believe.

Thank you. My choice is that the Bible is not what others claim it be to.

Nope, no middle gruond.

Either he died and was resurrected, or it was a hoax.
I'm leaning toward hoax.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by AdamsMurmur
 


They did it to the "gnostics Christians," the Cathars (igniting the Inquisition), and another group that I can't quite remember, at least. They use their superior military power as always, and shamefully brutalize people to suppress information.

All Bibles come from the Romans. I don't trust the Romans.

Neither do I. Thanks.
I'm on your team, for now.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 

Okay, I will keep an open mind.
Right now, my mind is wide open, and I need to go outdoors and process it.
Thanks for your contributions...make no mistake, I will follow up.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
Nope, no middle gruond.

Either he died and was resurrected, or it was a hoax.
I'm leaning toward hoax.

How sad to put forth such well thought content, only to be dismissed out of hand, makes me very very sad.

No wonder the church has to stick to it's guns about this, people are so quick to run away and hang their hat on whatever they can to avoid recognizing the importance and significance of Jesus' teachings and mission and his Magnum Opus.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


What we know of resurrection is that it takes a long time (days),

I wrote that ^. What I meant was "what we know of crucifixion", not "resurrection." I still don't believe in the "resurrection."

Just to clarify. Sorry guys/gals.

edit on 24-7-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by wildtimes
 

See the rebuttal to his post. Don't buy that garbage.
The first written accounts of those stories are from the Poetic Edda of the 13th century. It's also pretty obvious that things were an oral tradition before all that.

Christians first appeared to Vikings around the 9th century. This would put both traditions meeting around the same time as Norse myth began (maybe). It's possible that someone borrowed from someone, but judging from the track record, the Christians did their share of assimilation in the past, but I'm not so sure about the Scandinavians doing the same.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:44 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

What are you talking about? I told you I would look into it, and I have also agreed with you on many points that you make.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Praetorius
 


There's not much support for the swoon theory in light of biblical testimony (regarding his wounds and the following events) and what we know of crucifixion as well as various related roman/jewish practices. It doesn't seem to pass muster for a good number of reasons.

I've found plenty of support for the "swoon" theory, actually, from studying non-Christian writings and such.
What we know of resurrection is that it takes a long time (days), and the fact that he was taken down a few hours after his being pinned up there gives credence to the concept that he was not really dead...

I thought of another point to add to my response on this (and I don't worry, I totally read "crucifixion" here, didn't even catch the slip). Since you seem to have studied crucifixion a bit, you're probably familiar with some of the studies done on this in the last few decades.

What happens if a crucifixion victim is unable to push up with their legs to take a breath? How long do they tend to survive if merely hanging by their arms, thus unable to relieve pressure on the diaphragm and inhale?

And you suppose the trained soldiers & executioners assumed he had mysteriously only died within about a 12-minute window, without further questioning this? Even falling perchance on the sedile would not leave much room for breathing, as far as I can guess.

Just some additional thoughts, thanks.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Did he not still take upon himself the sins of the world? Did he not rise again after three days, the result being that the his Great Work symbolically transends the winter solstice as a cosmological principal of death and resurrection, pointing to a greater truth and reality?

And if he wasn't actually born of a virgin, did he not make the world new (virginal) again when he said to his mother, while carrying the cross "behold woman! I make all things new!"

I see his great sorrow, and his joyful triumph, clearly, and as a real historical person that's believable, for me at least it's even MORE compelling than the church version of the story.

And that he did make it though, that he did triumph and experience his liberation from the tomb, my oh my what an awesome thing to consider... for those than can..

NAM,
This entire concept is unprovable, and also improbable. I am totally on board with the solstice celebrations, and the seasonal occurrences....

The Earth makes things "new".

I just don't have convincing evidence or rhetoric that it's anything more than legend, not too far from the legends of King Arthur.
Can you really not consider that possibility? Never mind the similarities between his story and the more ancient traditions. NAM, I don't harbor animosity for you, I really, truly am conflicted about this. There is just too much study and research to back up the theory that he didn't die.

Brightest blessings, all the same.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

Actually, NAM, I believe Issa was Jesus, and that he survived and spent the rest of his days in Kashmir. But, as I said, I will provide the link for you later.

I really need to bow out now.

Brightest blessings to everyone who was willing to participate. I'll see your notes and your sources, and perhaps your "member is online now", in the morning. Thanks, team ATS!

My sadness is lifting (in case anyone cares).
~wild



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 

There's some legend there, even some myth, like the virgin birth story which if taken at face value (half God hybrid) would actually completely undermine the value of his role as a human being within the framework of the brotherhood of man, but what's interesting is what it (myth and legend) hides or masks, more than what it reveals.

When you read and comb through the gospels themselves, which is essential for this kind of inquiry, what surfaces, in an open and honest historical textual criticism, isn't a fable or a folklore, but a real life person of unparalleled genius and compassionate understanding and comprehension, even a bit of a trickster and a comedian at times, but always well intentioned and for ALL the right reasons.

I invite you to consider this thread I made about the story of Jesus and the woman at the well.

The Woman @ The Well: How the Historical Jesus Performed a "Miracle" + Reflections

As far as I know, no one, up until now, has really examined this story as I have, and it shows as much by what it hides as what is contained in the story itself.

Take the virgin birth story for example and the idea that no one would allow them a place to have a BABY for Pete's sake! Was it because every place, and every single inn and possible lodging, were all occupied..or was the couple perhaps unwanted or outcast for some reason..

You've got to think these things through logically, both in terms of what's there and what's in plain sight but masked over with myth and hidden, even intentionally.

There's a real Jesus there, and when you discover him as I have, the real deal I mean, it's the type of thing that really moves a person, even to tears both of sorrow, AND joyful celebration with him in his triumph (not a "hoax", what a shameful way to describe his Great Work, even if he didn't completely DIE die).

However, if he IS there, then we have to contend with the meaning and significance of his mission and what I call his Magnum Opus, and this is something that many people just don't want to, won't, or cannot do, so it IS much easier to write the whole thing off without having to assign to his cross any real meaning or significance, and part of the problem in NOT fleeing, in openly and honestly trying to evaluate it, is that there's this.. incomprehensible magnitude of complexity this side of the simplicity of God's love that is also there, which can only be found and really appreciated, not by blind faith, but with the faculty of reason's ability to get to the other side of the complexity and recognize what's really there, what the import and export of it all really is, what it means, and signifies and symbolizes, and how it might indeed even relate to us, even now, and how we relate to ourselves and others and the world around us.

It's a very difficult and challending task, and I just don't want you to fall victim to all the ignorance that abounds, an ignorance that hates what it cannot or is unwilling to understand and comprehend or "grok" most fully.

It's worth it though this quest for the historical Jesus, a person that I refer to as "a human historical crossroads" and one of the utmost importance and significance, of that there's little doubt.

What it all means, precisely, and how to interpret it, is another matter. And I'm pretty sure that Jesus himself knew at the time, that we wouldn't completely figure it out, and would surely still be talking about it for a very very long time!


Best Regards,

NAM


edit on 24-7-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 09:31 PM
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I am amazed at the lengthy gobby-de-gook logic on Jesus is god or the son of god.

If Jesus was this all powerful, totally connected god, why all this extreme never ending weird drama?

A real god just forgives folks and doesn't need to die to forgive.

A real god doesn't need to check out nails in the hands and feet, because he knows all that already.


There is every weird excuse under the Sun to attempting to bend a mountain of words into trying to tell Jesus is god, and a real god theme would need none of that mountain of words.


The long and short of it is, if Jesus were god the entire world would be on board. The only ones thinking Jesus is god is those shovening a mountain of words in everyone's face that are totally illogical.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 09:58 PM
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I just would like some feedback from those who "believe" or "disbelieve", backed up by accessible resources other than the Bible or the Quran. I'd like to hear what people who are looking into alternatives to "yes, he did" or, "no, he did not" die to contribute.

Wildtimes my friend,

You already know I'm a disbeliever who was a believer for a long time. I have searched, researched, and studied for many years now. As you have. I think you know as well as I do, you aren't going to get "proof" either way on this. You might get bits and pieces of evidence, but proof isn't ever likely to surface.

So I'm going to give you a non-biblical, non-Quran source that is as good as you are likely to ever get...your gut. What's it telling you? I already know you are an intuitive person. But you don't always listen, do you?

edit on 7/24/2012 by Klassified because: corrections



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


You don't want your position examined, and you don't want the Bible or the Koran used. You seem to want ATS to (and forgive me for this, because I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you) put on a debate with research and the whole business. Again, forgive me, but why bother?

I think I can answer that one. Why not? Christians have been walking around for years preaching their version of the truth, and brainwashing everyone they come across. They have killed millions, and forced their brand of religion on everyone. It is time to look at what Christians says, and see it it is true or not.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
Well, some may not know this, but none of the apostles ever denied their faith.

I believe only one of the original 12 did not have a gruesome end, that included being crucified upside down...

And all they had to do to recant.

Do the research on how each apostle met his end... Don't take my word on that one.


Apostle John. There are accounts of him being seen as late as 135 A.D.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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The people buried in these ossuaries seemed to think he was Kosher enough to write his name in their funeral boxes and scratch crosses onto them. Jews are stubborn, they need miracles to believe.





posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 08:26 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Remember, his legs were not broken
A hisop or stick was used to lift a sponge to him supposedly soaked in vinigar
A roman soldier was present who was sympathetic to his plight
Joseph of Aramathea took his body into his custody and owned the tomb itself
Rich men in dazzling white were seen by the empty tomb, with prior knowledge that he was alive,

This is what blows the whole story out of the water that he was really dead. This is what I hoped someone would point out.

Now for the source link I promised you: Well, it isn't the one I had in mind, which I can't seem to find this morning, it was on an Essene or Nazarene page somewhere, but in searching for it, I came across dozens of websites that say it was a hoax. Then I came upon this one, which has the "debate" I have asked for here pretty well documented.
www.reviewofreligions.org...


While I agree with you that it doesn't matter, and that him coming back from the brink would be miracle enough, and that his message still stands (which point many of the thinkers from the 18th c also make, as it turns out -- yet it came from my own intuition!)
I don't go for the whole "died for all the sins of the whole world.". No. He was talking to the Israelites.


And:
reply to post by Klassified
 


the more I think about these things (which is a LOT), the more I see that the Bible was written as an attempt to record previous oral traditional stories of times past that had been exaggerated and romanticized (or horrorized, what have you). When natural disasters occurred, the people said "Why?" and then came up with "reasons" (as in Sodom and Gomorrah) that the people "deserved" to be "punished." Jesus himself couldn't explain why, because he didn't have the knowledge of the Earth that we do now.

You're right, Klass. Thanks for the reminder.

------------------------------

TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED: Thanks to those who are my allies and who "get me." You know who you are.

Everyone else, whether you've posted or only read or lurked, members and non-members alike:

Here is my GUT speaking:
No one is coming to save us, ladies and gentlemen. We have to do it ourselves.
And we have to all agree to do it together. Time for the human race to grow up and accept accountability and responsibility for what is happening.

Today, this morning, as I crash my way through this thicket of discord and arguing, my mind sees those who believe in some coming "Day of Judgment" or "He Died for Our Sins", or "Just have Faith and Say it Out Loud" or ANY of that, and likewise the Muslim beliefs (although they seem to think that he didn't die, which I was unaware of being the case until here, very recently, and that is yet another serendipitous discovery) or Jewish beliefs for that matter....
as magical thinking little children, weak, and incapable of thinking up a solution of their own.

ALL of the Abrahamic beliefs are relics, and cop-outs, and until humanity steps up and takes charge of our own home, and our own destiny, instead of acting like selfish idiots, bullies, and foolish magical-thinking children waiting for Dad to come and make it all better, and punish the meanies....

come on, people. We did that in the basement when I was 11 and my brothers were 9 and 8. We'd fuss and fight, and all one of us had to do when it got really ugly was yell, "Daddy!" at the top of our lungs.

The trouble stopped immediately, and it was not because he was going to take us all out to shoot hoops. I do understand the concept of heavy-handed discipline. We were not abused, but back in the 60s, day to day parenting allowed for spankings and groundings and yellings and forbidding of events or pastimes...

One week from tomorrow will mark two years since my father died. I don't have him anymore to help me with problems around my home, or looking at a car that I'm considering, or to have ribs with, or grill salmon, or look at books about the National Parks, or go on trips to those same parks, or share a beer together, or discuss the world's issues (we did not always agree, for what it's worth). He's gone from me. We had some hard years, but as time went by we grew much closer and I came to understand him better, though I don't know if he understood me, because he was the type of man who didn't share his feelings much. He accepted me, though, and he loved me, and I know that without a doubt.

Yesterday after making this thread, I did go outside, and placed my bare feet on the dirt, and the sun was coming through the leaves of the trees, in which birds were singing. It was very hot and dry, and I had an overwhelming wave of pain slam through me, partly triggered by this thread, but I know also residual grief for him, but MOSTLY FOR OUR RACE and the UGLINESS.

We have to GROW UP and TAKE OVER.

I could elaborate but that would sound melodramatic and girly, so I'll stop there. I've shed some tears, and now my space is almost up. We can never mind on the resurrection debate if you all want, I'm, well, over it. The Bible does not prove itself, it doesn't follow the laws of nature, and it's childish, immature, and a kind of "victim" mentality. We should spend our time brainstorming, not bickering over dusty old books written by long dead men.

And so, I give you my heart-felt thanks, and with this post I will take my leave. Carry on as you were....or come along with me to a new era. Up to you. I'll be watching, though, and knowing me, I won't be able to stay silent for very long.

Namaste, and blessed be.
~wild




edit on 25-7-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)




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